Dying As An Act Of Contrition

[EllenMaksoud]

I recently overheard a conversation in the library where a man was explaining to another man all about Eumenides (?) , where they slayed their enemies so the offenders could experience the final act of contrition. This is an idea that is new to me, though perhaps it is deeply embedded in religious thought.

Perhaps that is the origin of lack of forgiveness until the offender is dead? Something to ponder. Perhaps in certain arenas offenders are expected to kill themselves as proof of contrition?

[tyler90az]

I recently overheard a conversation in the library where a man was explaining to another man all about Eumenides (?) , where they slayed their enemies so the offenders could experience the final act of contrition. This is an idea that is new to me, though perhaps it is deeply embedded in religious thought.

Perhaps that is the origin of lack of forgiveness until the offender is dead? Something to ponder. Perhaps in certain arenas offenders are expected to kill themselves as proof of contrition?

I do not think that will hold up in a court of law.

Edited June 12, 2013 by tyler90az

[EllenMaksoud]

I do not think that will hold up in a court of law.

Jesus Christ did the same to atone for our sins. It seems that those who murdered him were not concerned with justice?

I doubt that those who kill themselves care about the law.

[Calm]

I doubt that those who kill themselves care about the law.

There are cultures were suicide is considered honourable in certain circumstances...don't know how many, haven't studied it all that much.

[ERayR]

Jesus Christ did the same to atone for our sins. It seems that those who murdered him were not concerned with justice?

I doubt that those who kill themselves care about the law.

Ellen only Jesus Christ has the power to overcome death. He had the power to lay it down and pick it up. Anybody else has no power over death.

[EllenMaksoud]

There are cultures were suicide is considered honourable in certain circumstances...don't know how many, haven't studied it all that much.

Japanese for one. By nature, those who give their lives away, what ever their motive, are not subject to man's laws. However, there is Matt 18:18, "What ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven ...

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen only Jesus Christ has the power to overcome death. He had the power to lay it down and pick it up. Anybody else has no power over death.

“Surcease from pain? Death is many things, and an honorable death can be an escape from one’s own conscience, especially when that death atones in some small measure for one’s sins. We all of us have a personal responsibility to heal the world around us, and sometimes that healing best takes place when our absence is guaranteed.”

An excerpt from a dark story I am reading. It makes a lot of sense.

[Calm]

Japanese for one. By nature, those who give their lives away, what ever their motive, are not subject to man's laws. However, there is Matt 18:18, "What ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven ...

Greece and Rome as well

An interesting historical tidbit I just came across:

When her husband Caecina Paetus hesitated to kill himself honorably, his wife Arria (d. A.D. 42) snatched the dagger from her husband, stabbed herself, and handed the weapon back with the words “Paete, non dolet“ (“Paeuts, it does not hurt”).ⁱ

http://facts.randomhistory.com/2009/07/15_suicide.html

[ERayR]

“Surcease from pain? Death is many things, and an honorable death can be an escape from one’s own conscience, especially when that death atones in some small measure for one’s sins. We all of us have a personal responsibility to heal the world around us, and sometimes that healing best takes place when our absence is guaranteed.”

An excerpt from a dark story I am reading. It makes a lot of sense.

WE were bought by the Blood of Christ and our life is not ours to dispose of as we wish but rather it is for us to wait for his call.

[EllenMaksoud]

Greece and Rome as well

An interesting historical tidbit I just came across:

http://facts.randomh...15_suicide.html

I notice that the Mormon view on suicide seems much more tolerant and forgiving than the Ev one. I've had counselors tell me that suicide is reaching out to hurt someone else. In response, it is better to just disappear with out explanation, with no witnesses, and no one hurt.

[EllenMaksoud]

WE were bought by the Blood of Christ and our life is not ours to dispose of as we wish but rather it is for us to wait for his call.

Do not be concerned. This is not a suicide threat.

[ERayR]

I notice that the Mormon view on suicide seems much more tolerant and forgiving than the Ev one. I've had counselors tell me that suicide is reaching out to hurt someone else. In response, it is better to just disappear with out explanation, with no witnesses, and no one hurt.

Impossible there is always someone.

[USU78]

I recently overheard a conversation in the library where a man was explaining to another man all about Eumenides (?) , where they slayed their enemies so the offenders could experience the final act of contrition. This is an idea that is new to me, though perhaps it is deeply embedded in religious thought.

Perhaps that is the origin of lack of forgiveness until the offender is dead? Something to ponder. Perhaps in certain arenas offenders are expected to kill themselves as proof of contrition?

The Eumenides (means "The Kind Ones," an ironic epithet for the Furies) is an ancient Greek play about Orestes' guilt and punishment for being a matricide (he killed his mother after she had conspired successfully with her lover to murder Orestes' father, Agamemnon -- the mother, Clytemnestra, was motivated by Agamemnon's sacrifice of her daughter, Iphigenia, for a favorable wind to take the Achaean army to Troy). Got that?

Well, in the final play of the cycle, Orestes is brought to trial and the Furies, chthonic demons who torment guilty hearts and souls, make the argument you set forth above. In the end, however, Apollo and Athena intervene on Orestes' behalf with a jury of Athenians brought in to judge the matter. The verdict is mercy, rather than vengeance, for Orestes . . . and the Furies are placated by Athena because the process had been fair such that Clytemnestra's shade can sink back into Hades.

Thus, your speculation about this first cousin of the Blood Atonement Libel, guilt being expiated by shedding of one's own blood, seems not to have much if anything to do with LDS doctrine or practice, other than the play's insistence on both the efficacy of jury trials and the compelling call of mercy upon us all.

[volgadon]

Greece and Rome as well

An interesting historical tidbit I just came across:

http://facts.randomh...15_suicide.html

And most European countries up til the middle of the last century, wherever there was an officer ethos.

[CV75]

I recently overheard a conversation in the library where a man was explaining to another man all about Eumenides (?) , where they slayed their enemies so the offenders could experience the final act of contrition. This is an idea that is new to me, though perhaps it is deeply embedded in religious thought.

Perhaps that is the origin of lack of forgiveness until the offender is dead? Something to ponder. Perhaps in certain arenas offenders are expected to kill themselves as proof of contrition?

I would think the Lord would accept any genuine contrition however one chooses to express it, even if they were misguided (only He can judge that).

I'm sure there are some on death row that are truly contrite and view their execution as both just and merciful as far as having a means to show their contrition.

The method of execution (by one's own hand or by the executioner) doesn't really determine whether one is actually contrite or not. In cases where self-execution is imposed by a higher authority (and I wouldn't classify this as suicide) the executee might just be tired or very practical.

[Tacenda]

I would think the Lord would accept any genuine contrition however one chooses to express it, even if they were misguided (only He can judge that).

I'm sure there are some on death row that are truly contrite and view their execution as both just and merciful as far as having a means to show their contrition.

The method of execution (by one's own hand or by the executioner) doesn't really determine whether one is actually contrite or not. In cases where self-execution is imposed by a higher authority (and I wouldn't classify this as suicide) the executee might just be tired or very practical.

I've thought of taking my own life, because I can't bear to live with a disease that is probably inevitable, alzheimer's. My mom's side of the family had early onset dementia/alzheimer's. Now my cousin has it at the age of 60. I have just a few years until I'll probably get it. I'm not as brave as my mother who suffered with it for over 10 years. I watched all the stages she went through and the pure suffering. I can't bear my family seeing me that way, I've thought over and over again a way to do myself in and not have it affect anyone but it's impossible. I wonder what the Lord does in a case like mine or others that don't want to suffer through a horrible disease. My dad always use to say and now I say it, they treat animals better than humans, where they put animals to sleep. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to live with it, the minute they diagnose it. I know it's not contrition that I'm feeling and sorry if I've derailed, but this talk of suicide got my attention.

[thesometimesaint]

“Surcease from pain? Death is many things, and an honorable death can be an escape from one’s own conscience, especially when that death atones in some small measure for one’s sins. We all of us have a personal responsibility to heal the world around us, and sometimes that healing best takes place when our absence is guaranteed.”

An excerpt from a dark story I am reading. It makes a lot of sense.

I don't believe that I/we can judge when a person has experienced enough pain to want to commit suicide. Christ alone toned for all of our sins, to heal this world.

[EllenMaksoud]

So in the scenario where one has lived their entire life loving and sacrificing for their family, only to have them feel unbridled hatred for them that lasts for years on end, and the person kills themselves, is this not still being one's own God? And if they act as their own God, is that not the ultimate in disobedience?

[thesometimesaint]

If someone hated me that much. I wouldn't spend much time around them. Actually I wouldn't spend any time with them. Emotional and physical distance does wonders for the soul.

[Garden Girl]

I've thought of taking my own life, because I can't bear to live with a disease that is probably inevitable, alzheimer's. My mom's side of the family had early onset dementia/alzheimer's. Now my cousin has it at the age of 60. I have just a few years until I'll probably get it. I'm not as brave as my mother who suffered with it for over 10 years. I watched all the stages she went through and the pure suffering. I can't bear my family seeing me that way, I've thought over and over again a way to do myself in and not have it affect anyone but it's impossible. I wonder what the Lord does in a case like mine or others that don't want to suffer through a horrible disease. My dad always use to say and now I say it, they treat animals better than humans, where they put animals to sleep. I'm pretty sure I won't be able to live with it, the minute they diagnose it. I know it's not contrition that I'm feeling and sorry if I've derailed, but this talk of suicide got my attention.

I, too, have told on the board here how I had planned to commit suicide... it was all very logical for me. Being alone, widowed, no children, I'm concerned about my possible downward spiral into dementia or Alzheimer's... so I had planned very carefully how at just the right time (not too soon or too late) I would get my stockpile of pills... and after cleaning my house, making sure all was in order legally, and getting myself all ready, I would simply go in and lie down on my bed, take my pills, and go to sleep. All very calm... no mess... I was really serious and fully intended to carry out my plan because I could not bear the thought of losing my mind and being subjected to the treatment that can go on in "care" facilities... particularly since I had no one to make sure this didn't happen. And with my limited funds, I'd end up in a lesser or questionable facility.

Then I reactivated in the Church... I counseled with my bishop over this, and my plan became moot... now what? I still have the same dreadful fear of losing my mind (I've made it to 72 so far)... And I do have one of my nephews who has agreed to take care of the "crazy aunt" from Oregon if that happens... In the meantime, my daily prayer is that I will continue to have a brain andintellect that is clear and active and simply live out my life, enduring to the end... and trust that I will not end up in some facility where unspeakable things have been known to happen to little old ladies of diminished capacities...

from the beach on a beautiful Pacific Northwest morning... light rain showers then dappled sun visible through the leaves of the trees outside my window as I sit here typing this... grateful for a beautiful day...

GG

[Tacenda]

I, too, have told on the board here how I had planned to commit suicide... it was all very logical for me. Being alone, widowed, no children, I'm concerned about my possible downward spiral into dementia or Alzheimer's... so I had planned very carefully how at just the right time (not too soon or too late) I would get my stockpile of pills... and after cleaning my house, making sure all was in order legally, and getting myself all ready, I would simply go in and lie down on my bed, take my pills, and go to sleep. All very calm... no mess... I was really serious and fully intended to carry out my plan because I could not bear the thought of losing my mind and being subjected to the treatment that can go on in "care" facilities... particularly since I had no one to make sure this didn't happen. And with my limited funds, I'd end up in a lesser or questionable facility.

Then I reactivated in the Church... I counseled with my bishop over this, and my plan became moot... now what? I still have the same dreadful fear of losing my mind (I've made it to 72 so far)... And I do have one of my nephews who has agreed to take care of the "crazy aunt" from Oregon if that happens... In the meantime, my daily prayer is that I will continue to have a brain andintellect that is clear and active and simply live out my life, enduring to the end... and trust that I will not end up in some facility where unspeakable things have been known to happen to little old ladies of diminished capacities...

from the beach on a beautiful Pacific Northwest morning... light rain showers then dappled sun visible through the leaves of the trees outside my window as I sit here typing this... grateful for a beautiful day...

GG

Oh, to be you at 72.

[thesometimesaint]

I, too, have told on the board here how I had planned to commit suicide... it was all very logical for me. Being alone, widowed, no children, I'm concerned about my possible downward spiral into dementia or Alzheimer's... so I had planned very carefully how at just the right time (not too soon or too late) I would get my stockpile of pills... and after cleaning my house, making sure all was in order legally, and getting myself all ready, I would simply go in and lie down on my bed, take my pills, and go to sleep. All very calm... no mess... I was really serious and fully intended to carry out my plan because I could not bear the thought of losing my mind and being subjected to the treatment that can go on in "care" facilities... particularly since I had no one to make sure this didn't happen. And with my limited funds, I'd end up in a lesser or questionable facility.

Then I reactivated in the Church... I counseled with my bishop over this, and my plan became moot... now what? I still have the same dreadful fear of losing my mind (I've made it to 72 so far)... And I do have one of my nephews who has agreed to take care of the "crazy aunt" from Oregon if that happens... In the meantime, my daily prayer is that I will continue to have a brain andintellect that is clear and active and simply live out my life, enduring to the end... and trust that I will not end up in some facility where unspeakable things have been known to happen to little old ladies of diminished capacities...

from the beach on a beautiful Pacific Northwest morning... light rain showers then dappled sun visible through the leaves of the trees outside my window as I sit here typing this... grateful for a beautiful day...

GG

You know with your luck all that would happen is that you'd get very sick and spend the rest of the night vomiting the contents of your guts out.

Edited June 12, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[CV75]

I wonder what the Lord does in a case like mine or others that don't want to suffer through a horrible disease.

I have every confidence that He can guide anyone that both suffers a fear of something that might happen, and doesn't want to actually suffer the thing he fears.

[Garden Girl]

You know with your luck all that would happen is that you'd get very sick and spend the rest of the night vomiting the contents of your guts out.

edit to add... in regard to the topic (didn't mean to derail)... the only act of giving one's life that is important or acceptable is that of the Savior's... for all of us, particularly like me who fears my years ahead... the Savior suffered so as to know how to succor all of us in our fears, pain, or suffering.

And as far as contrition, all he asks of us is a broken heart and contrite spirit...

GG

Edited June 13, 2013 by Garden Girl

[rpn]

Suicide is the ultimate prideful arrogance for those who claim to do it in celebration of God's will, or even as an act of contrition. Murder is most serious because it takes into human hands without authority the length of time another has been assigned by His Maker.

In the original quote it was apparently people in war (presumably about people they thought were wicked in prosecuting that war) for who the apparent defender was describing it as helping them make up for their sins. Wouldn't know enough about the situation to know if that discussion was totally out of line, but I rather think that such statements or not should be left up to God himself, as mortals tend to get such things wrong