“Occult Context Of Js’S 1823 Discovery Of Gold Plates”

[Dan Vogel]

New Video by Dan Vogel: “Occult Context of Joseph Smith’s 1823 Discovery of Gold Plates”

Description: The purpose of this video will be to reconstruct the original story and restore it to its folk magic and treasure seeking context—a part of the story the average Mormon is woefully unaware.

[Calm]

New Video by Dan Vogel: “Occult Context of Joseph Smith’s 1823 Discovery of Gold Plates”

Description: The purpose of this video will be to reconstruct the original story and restore it to its folk magic and treasure seeking context—a part of the story the average Mormon is woefully unaware.

Cue the spooky music.....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[canard78]

Before I watch it. Does this video feature the talking toads story? Now that's a great old yarn. Almost as good as the talking donkey (not that those aren't in short supply on this board... Present company excepted cal!)

ETA: I've just reread this. The bracketed comment was not aimed at you Dan

Edited June 5, 2013 by canard78

[SamIam]

New Video by Dan Vogel: “Occult Context of Joseph Smith’s 1823 Discovery of Gold Plates”

Description: The purpose of this video will be to reconstruct the original story and restore it to its folk magic and treasure seeking context—a part of the story the average Mormon is woefully unaware.

If you as a researcher in fields of theology, do not accept that there is a God, you immediately limit the scope of available options of interpretation to only those conclusions that sustain your constrained view. There is no God within reach of the hell that exists in his absence and thus there can be no servants of God to wet your dry parched lips. Is it any wonder that those of such biased and perverted scope have only one drum to beat and in the end of all their efforts is a solitary stand on a lonely molehill, fist clinched and raised to the heavens in defiance. "I see no God", proclaim such forlorn souls, and all the prophets who claim to serve such, in the minds of such researchers, can only be frauds and charlatans-and the drum beats slowly.

For those religious minded folks who see God in the vistas of their eternal view, why should we strain to look through the small hole in the fence that is the scope of your reality?

Edited June 4, 2013 by SamIam

[Storm Rider]

I am just glad to know that I need to approach the story of Joseph Smith through a folk magic and treasure seeking lens. I have to pinch myself that this secret information is finally coming to light! Danny, you are a winner and make me proud.

[Darren10]

When you do not accept that there is a God, you immediately limit the scope of available options of interpretation to only those conclusions that sustain your constrained view. There is no God within reach of the hell that exists in his absence and thus no servants of God to wet your dry parched lips. Is it any wonder that those of such biased and perverted scope have only one drum to beat and in the end of all their efforts is a solitary stand on a lonely molehill, fist clinched and raised to the heavens in defiance. "I see no God", proclaim such forlorn souls, and all who claim to serve such can only be frauds and charlatans-and the drum beats slowly.

For those religious minded folks who see God in the vistas of their eternal view, why should we strain to look through the small hole in the fence that is the scope of your reality?

I originally misread your post and that you were calling all those who believe in God "frauds" and "charlatans". However, after re-reading your post I see you very much respond to this open thread's position that witnessing the golden plates must be, according to atheists, fraudulant and charlatan.

Sorry for the misread (and misgivings I originally felt) and good post.

[Darren10]

Cue the spooky music.....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Before I watch it. Does this video feature the talking toads story? Now that's a great old yarn. Almost as good as the talking *** (not that those aren't in short supply on this board... Present company excepted cal!)

Maybe we can combine the two posts and sing "Puff, the Magic Toad".

[stemelbow]

I am just glad to know that I need to approach the story of Joseph Smith through a folk magic and treasure seeking lens. I have to pinch myself that this secret information is finally coming to light! Danny, you are a winner and make me proud.

Yeah..it's become too convenient a story to tell.

As a teenager JS was very heavily involved in folk magic and treasure seeking. He was as it seems so heavily involved that he was considered a leader of the movement as a teenage boy. This is the appropriate context from which JS created the idea to start a religion.

Sadly so much of the evidence that brings one to this conclusion comes after the era in question, it seems, from people, largely, hostile towards the young dude.

[SamIam]

I originally misread your post and that you were calling all those who believe in God "frauds" and "charlatans". However, after re-reading your post I see you very much respond to this open thread's position that witnessing the golden plates must be, according to atheists, fraudulant and charlatan.

Sorry for the misread (and misgivings I originally felt) and good post.

Well, it can't be that good if it is hard to determine my message...I cleaned it up so hopefully it is more clear now. Thank you for pointing to my lack of clarity.

I guess I could of just said something like "Don't be stupid Dan" and that would have been exact enough but I figured if he could could take an entire hour to retread this worn out spin, the least I could do was try to make "stupid" sound elegant.

[tagriffy]

Yeah..it's become too convenient a story to tell.

As a teenager JS was very heavily involved in folk magic and treasure seeking. He was as it seems so heavily involved that he was considered a leader of the movement as a teenage boy. This is the appropriate context from which JS created the idea to start a religion.

Sadly so much of the evidence that brings one to this conclusion comes after the era in question, it seems, from people, largely, hostile towards the young dude.

But not all of it. There is enough information even from friendly sources that point to the same basic conclusion. For example, take another look at Mormon 9 and its argument against anti-supernaturalism. It might actually be appropriate to say Joseph could not have started Mormonism without that background in folk magic and treasure seeking.

[stemelbow]

But not all of it. There is enough information even from friendly sources that point to the same basic conclusion. For example, take another look at Mormon 9 and its argument against anti-supernaturalism. It might actually be appropriate to say Joseph could not have started Mormonism without that background in folk magic and treasure seeking.

k. but what background?

He found a stone?

He was convinced by Stowell to help him find treasure?

....

the rest is people building off these two pieces and creating some vastly involved context in order to tell Joseph's story.

[Calm]

Samlam, did you watch the video yet? If not, perhaps it is not just a retread.

Brant Gardner in my understanding...not having a chance to read his book yet...wrote a text examining the nature of the folk beliefs surrounding seerstones and such so it seems to me the topic is not exhausted as of yet.

[tagriffy]

k. but what background?

He found a stone?

He was convinced by Stowell to help him find treasure?

....

the rest is people building off these two pieces and creating some vastly involved context in order to tell Joseph's story.

I'm thinking of the general background, such as Lucy Mack Smith denying her family was lazy for engaging in "trying to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing magic circles or sooth saying." Whatever the actual details, it is clear that Joseph was steeped in a world where the supernatural was a part of everyday life in a very real way. I'm hardly being original in the apparently still-controversial proposal served as preparation for his life as a prophet.

[USU78]

Cue the spooky music.....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nor should you have. When the need arises to equate prophetic activity with witchcraft, even when that need is triggered by the unfortunate revelation of the extent of a mad bomber's perfidy and greed, we should feel free to mock around the cabin.

[SamIam]

Samlam, did you watch the video yet? If not, perhaps it is not just a retread.

Brant Gardner in my understanding...not having a chance to read his book yet...wrote a text examining the nature of the folk beliefs surrounding seerstones and such so it seems to me the topic is not exhausted as of yet.

I started but did not finish watching the video. However, my point is that one cannot depend on any conclusions that a researcher of things religious, who denies the existence of a God, can make when those conclusions of necessity exclude the mystical realms that embrace the conditions that are attributed to the venues in which a God works.

My second point is a personal one. In my youth and well into my 30's, I read fantasy novels with elves,trolls, gnomes and wizards with gusto. On vacations when I was a single chap I could read 7 books in the week. As I have matured, be it ever so slowly, I have realized that having a greater potential to accept the mystical is a gift that defends against the clinical mentality of those whose gift is simply the organization and analysis of the dry bones of history. Once the wires and connectors are all in place it is still but a skeleton and each of us is left with the task of envisioning the face of what we think it looks like.

Being able to freely believe that stone ax heads can float, waters can be parted, floods can cover every portion of the earth and that a young boy can see and converse with God the Father and Jesus Christ is simply an extension of a mindset that had yet to separate realities from fantasy but had the potential to grasp the things hoped for and to perceive the evidence of things unseen. I see Joseph as having the natural gift of believing in the mystical which only needed time and experience to hone.

Finally, It takes little time of watching the video to realize that the Moroni 7 clause for knowing if something is of Christ is violated. Does it make me wish to serve Him more? Or does is call into question the existence of the God I worship? In the absence of the first and the affirmation of the second, I am left with a "perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night" that the works of apostates never have as their objective the edification of the Lord or his ways and only serve the purpose of leading Gods children astray. Candidly, boldly and with no reserve I can only condemn such as of the devil and continue skipping happily down the sidewalk of my life unburdened by the weight of another's unyielding effort to get as many others as possible to shoulder what is his faithless burden to bear.

Edited June 4, 2013 by SamIam

[Tacenda]

Yeah..it's become too convenient a story to tell.

As a teenager JS was very heavily involved in folk magic and treasure seeking. He was as it seems so heavily involved that he was considered a leader of the movement as a teenage boy. This is the appropriate context from which JS created the idea to start a religion.

Sadly so much of the evidence that brings one to this conclusion comes after the era in question, it seems, from people, largely, hostile towards the young dude.

I'm not hostile, but what you said in the bolded sentence, made me think of treasure seeking and teenage boys put together, and of the boys I knew as a child. They would often get together and have a boys club where no girls were allowed (think Freemasonry), and they would also come up with treasure maps and finding treasure (think Pirates). Was or could JS have possibly been swept up into a fantasy world? Also, men and war. So often I think wars get started for no good reason at all, just boys playing war games at the expense of so many innocent people. Sorry to pick on boys, but I've had these thoughts for quite awhile.

[Darren10]

Well, it can't be that good if it is hard to determine my message...I cleaned it up so hopefully it is more clear now. Thank you for pointing to my lack of clarity.

I'm somewhat a slow reader. I often need to take time to read and digest what is written in front of me. Likewise, when I quickly read through something, like I did your post, I often miss key parts. What you wrote was very good and I find only myself at fault for misinterpreting it.

"Don't be stupid Dan"

Yes, that would be both articulate and appropriately asked.

the least I could do was try to make "stupid" sound elegant.

Perhaps in a different language?

http://answers.yahoo...18172129AAO1Euc

Again it was a good post.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

I'm not hostile, but what you said in the bolded sentence, made me think of treasure seeking and teenage boys put together, and of the boys I knew as a child. They would often get together and have a boys club where no girls were allowed (think Freemasonry), and they would also come up with treasure maps and finding treasure (think Pirates). Was or could JS have possibly been swept up into a fantasy world? Also, men and war. So often I think wars get started for no good reason at all, just boys playing war games at the expense of so many innocent people. Sorry to pick on boys, but I've had these thoughts for quite awhile.

Tacenda;

Do you honestly think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded on Freemasonry and juvenile pirate games?

[SamIam]

I'm not hostile, but what you said in the bolded sentence, made me think of treasure seeking and teenage boys put together, and of the boys I knew as a child. They would often get together and have a boys club where no girls were allowed (think Freemasonry), and they would also come up with treasure maps and finding treasure (think Pirates). Was or could JS have possibly been swept up into a fantasy world? Also, men and war. So often I think wars get started for no good reason at all, just boys playing war games at the expense of so many innocent people. Sorry to pick on boys, but I've had these thoughts for quite awhile.

If it is truly said that behind every great man is a great women can we surmise that hiding behind every warlord is his warlord wife ... with a knife in his back?

[cinepro]

T

For those religious minded folks who see God in the vistas of their eternal view, why should we strain to look through the small hole in the fence that is the scope of your reality?

You raise an interesting point Samlan. Let's see how that actually works by discussing something a little less explosive than the existence of God.

In 1917 (and in subsequent years), two young girls produced photographic evidence of the existence of fairies near their home in Cottingley, England.

http://en.wikipedia....tingley_Fairies

Obviously, people reacted to these photos in different ways. Some people sincerely believed that this was actual evidence of fairies. Others were skeptical and didn't consider the photos authentic. Some investigated the claims using the best science they could.

Two of the most famous "researchers" in this situation were Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (author of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries) and Harry Houdini (the famous magician). Doyle was a believer, and Houdini a skeptic.

Now, based on the principles you have outlined, in what way would you form a basis of belief or disbelief in the legitimacy of the photos? Would you require yourself to be 100% open to the existence of fairies? Would someone who believes in fairies be better suited to examining the photos than one who didn't? How might their approaches be different based on their beliefs (or lack of beliefs)?

Edited June 4, 2013 by cinepro

[Bernard Gui]

"Orrin Porter Rockwell, who like Smith, walked with a limp."

OK.

[Bernard Gui]

The video proves it even more remarkable that Joseph Smith achieved what he did in his

short lifetime given the common poverty-level serfdom in which he was raised.

[stemelbow]

I'm not hostile, but what you said in the bolded sentence, made me think of treasure seeking and teenage boys put together, and of the boys I knew as a child. They would often get together and have a boys club where no girls were allowed (think Freemasonry), and they would also come up with treasure maps and finding treasure (think Pirates). Was or could JS have possibly been swept up into a fantasy world? Also, men and war. So often I think wars get started for no good reason at all, just boys playing war games at the expense of so many innocent people. Sorry to pick on boys, but I've had these thoughts for quite awhile.

I'm not saying its a far-fetched idea. I just question the notion that we ought to accept that he was so heavily involved in it all based on what seems to me pretty scant data.

[stemelbow]

I'm thinking of the general background, such as Lucy Mack Smith denying her family was lazy for engaging in "trying to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing magic circles or sooth saying." Whatever the actual details, it is clear that Joseph was steeped in a world where the supernatural was a part of everyday life in a very real way. I'm hardly being original in the apparently still-controversial proposal served as preparation for his life as a prophet.

I know you're not. I can still question the conclusions though. I'm not sure there is as strong a case as people (liek Dan) are saying.

And, f course, in the end it doesn't matter if JS was all caught up in it. It wouldn't necessarily affect his prophetic claims.

[SamIam]

TYou raise an interesting point Samlan. Let's see how that actually works by discussing something a little less explosive than the existence of God.

In 1917 (and in subsequent years), two young girls produced photographic evidence of the existence of fairies near their home in Cottingley, England.

http://en.wikipedia....tingley_Fairies

Obviously, people reacted to these photos in different ways. Some people sincerely believed that this was actual evidence of fairies. Others were skeptical and didn't consider the photos authentic. Some investigated the claims using the best science they could.

Two of the most famous "researchers" in this situation were Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (author of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries) and Harry Houdini (the famous magician). Doyle was a believer, and Houdini a skeptic.

Now, based on the principles you have outlined, in what way would you form a basis of belief or disbelief in the legitimacy of the photos? Would you require yourself to be 100% open to the existence of fairies? Would someone who believes in fairies be better suited to examining the photos than one who didn't? How might their approaches be different based on their beliefs (or lack of beliefs)?

This is hardly much of a conundrum. To form “a basis of belief or disbelief” I would simply sprinkle a tiny bit of pixie dust on the picture thus animating the little fairies. Then I would ask them what they thought of Dan Vogel if they praised his wisdom I would know instantly that these are not fairies but devilish imps masquerading as fairies. If they protested in shrill voices that they would not discuss “he who must not be named” then of course who am I to disregard the reality of fairies?