Boy Scouts Of America Compromise?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Except to the ladies.

It is the same thing, only the reverse if the homosexual boys were to remain with the heterosexual groups, except in that case the homosexual boys are not the target of physical attraction, but rather the givers of such...as were the girls in the Girl Scout troop.

Because they are better than the GSA ones or because she is more likely to be 'mannish'?

1) But if he were with the girls, he wouldn't be peeing, showering, and chaging clothes with them. I don't know what is so difficult to understand... we segregate based on sex in restrooms, locker rooms, etc... BECAUSE of the sexual attraction issue. Yet, when it comes to gays kids we are supposed to suspend those rules. At this point, it does become a special rights issue... if some gay kid gets to shower with those he is attracted to, why can't we allow all boys and girls to shower together? Why are the gay kids so special?

2) Both

Edited April 21, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Saints Alive]

I thought we segregated bathrooms and locker rooms because of the modesty issue. In any case SSA does throw a wrench in the works.

[Calm]

1) But if he were with the girls, he wouldn't be peeing, showering, and chaging clothes with them.

In most cases of scouts, there isn't a lot of locker room activity, is there? Certainly wasn't for my son. And I only wish they had done more showering on those camping trips....

And for those who are bothered...there are stalls with doors on them, aren't there usually?

And when it came to camping, he would be using the same facilities as the ladies use. Would be changing clothes and sleeping with them in the same tents at the very least....

Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

All of the summer camps I went to (granted its been awhile, the mid 90s) still had open showers.

[wenglund]

This is an interesting issue. Do we allow an lds boy to pass or bless the sacrament, if he claims SSA? Of course we should, unless he acts on it. So should this boy be allowed to participate in scouting and receive rank advancement? Of course- this is the current lds policy.

Those same young men pass the sacrament to young women, Logically, this doesn't mean that they should be allowed to join young womens organizations and to go on over-nighters and sleep in the same tents as the young women.

Please folks, in your efforts to conform to pop culture and live in and of the world, let's not entirely take leave of your senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 21, 2013 by wenglund

[teddyaware]

Those same young men pass the sacrament to you women, Logically, this doesn't mean that they should be allowed to go join young womens organizations and to go on over-nighters and sleep in the same tents as the young women.

Please folks, in your efforts to conform to pop culture, let's not entirely take leave of your senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Bingo!

[rpn]

Do you know how many straight young men and women wonder about whether they are straight or gay at some point in their growing up years? It is just silly to think that we can rigidly separate children (unless they themselves feel an issue) by their sexual orientation at a young age.

The solution to the sleeping in the tent issue is simple. When a scout says he wants to change tents for any reason, we let him change tents to another where the problem doesn't exist. ((It is done now for a whole slew of reasons: just because a ssa-ted young man is to one scout isn't going to mean he is to all scouts.) When a leaders sees a problem in a tent, the leader reassigns whomever it is appropriate to reassign, but doesn't let people do it to bully, demean others, ostracize, or to avoid the growth that comes from learning to get along with people who are different from them.

And we teach all boys that modesty is not only a "girl" thing, that keeping one's self covered except while bathing and changing into a swimsuit is important value.

I wish the distinction was on acting on the attractions, not the being attracted. I hope if I ever see the actual wording, instead of the reports of what it says, it will make it clear that the adults that are excluded will only be adults who live a gay lifestyle, not those who are ssa-ted but don't.

[Stone holm]

I have gone to a lot of scout camps with the boys. You have to basically force them to go to the showers at gun point you are lucky to get them in there more than twice in a week. People are making this sound like they spend ninety percent of their time in the showers, and Scout Camp is some kind of mass potential orgy.

[Calm]

You have to basically force them to go to the showers at gun point you are lucky to get them in there more than twice in a week.

I never went to scout camp, but I saw...and also smelled plenty of evidence of this when my son arrived home as well as unpacked his pack.

I understand not being able to wash where there isn't much available to wash in, the young women ended up smelling as well...but the young women would complain about it while the young men when it was pointed out to them would go 'huh?'.

There must be something about men's sense of smell that softens week old sweat...

[Stone holm]

I never went to scout camp, but I saw...and also smelled plenty of evidence of this when my son arrived home as well as unpacked his pack.

I understand not being able to wash where there isn't much available to wash in, the young women ended up smelling as well...but the young women would complain about it while the young men when it was pointed out to them would go 'huh?'.

There must be something about men's sense of smell that softens week old sweat...

The Canadians stopped the discrimination in their troops some while back and it hasn't caused collapse up there. Still I think the original compromise would have been better for both the BSA and the Church. This just keeps the controversy alive and the Church will eventually lose this culture war. Better to have let each organization choose their own leadership policy. There is already an alternative Scouting organization forming. I really hate to see scouts torn apart by this type of religious/political warfare.

[Daniel2]

Reuter's reports today:

This compromise appears to send mixed messages all around, and doesn't seem to me like a solution for the scouts that could last long. It creates a lot of problems.

For example, what happens when gay scouts get achieve the rank of Eagle, and want to continue to serve in their troops...? Are they automatically dis-enfranchised from their troops? One day they prove their dedication by achieving the highest rank possible and they're "in," and the next day they're "out"...?

Daniel2

Others are picking up on the problems inherent in this compromise, which is likely only a short-term Band-Aid that doesn't provide a long-term solution:

Edited April 22, 2013 by Daniel2

[Stone holm]

Others are picking up on the problems inherent in this compromise, which is likely only a short-term Band-Aid that doesn't provide a long-term solution:

Not sure I understand the reasoning behind this solution other than possibly to bring it into harmony somewhat with our doctrine. It certainly doesn't put the controversy to rest. As I understand one of the incidents which sparked the renewed controversy was the removal of a lesbian Den Mother. I talked this over with my wife and tried to get a handle on exactly what the issue was, trying to put the least bigoted spin on it. We just couldn't come up with any that didn't make us wince a little. We didn't see how the original compromise would have hurt the Church. This compromise smells of cultural issues and hang ups of the Salt Lake Council, and when it blows up in our face the blame should fall directly on their shoulders.

[Calm]

This compromise smells of cultural issues and hang ups of the Salt Lake Council, and when it blows up in our face the blame should fall directly on their shoulders.

I have not read all the material on this announcement. Is there anything beyond your own opinion that might lead one to believe that it was primarily the SL Council that influenced the decision to go this way?

[Calm]

This compromise smells of cultural issues and hang ups of the Salt Lake Council, and when it blows up in our face the blame should fall directly on their shoulders.

Since the SL Council's findings of its own members were predominantly against lifting the ban, I don't see why you would think the compromise was due to it:

And in Utah, the Boy Scouts’ Great Salt Lake Council — one of the largest in the country with 73,400 youth members — said a survey showed that more than 80 percent of its leaders opposed lifting the ban.

http://nation.time.com/2013/04/19/boy-scouts-proposing-to-lift-gay-ban-for-youth/

[Stone holm]

I have not read all the material on this announcement. Is there anything beyond your own opinion that might lead one to believe that it was primarily the SL Council that influenced the decision to go this way?

As I understand it the Salt Lake Council led the resistance to the original compromise. I doubt the National Council would have announced an early decision like this without their removing their objection. I don't think they understand the impact this flawed approach is going to have in other regions of America especially on the West Coast and in the North East. There is already discussion of whether being an adult Scouter in some regions disqualifies a person from being a judge since it is an organization which actively discriminates. The only reason why Scout use of school premises has not been blocked in some Districts is because of a Federal law. The continued controversy is destroying BSA and reflects very badly on us because everyone assumes that it is us and the Catholics behind it. I don't think the Church was resisting the original compromise ... But it is not possible to tell.

[Stone holm]

Since the SL Council's findings of its own members were predominantly against lifting the ban, I don't see why you would think the compromise was due to it:

http://nation.time.com/2013/04/19/boy-scouts-proposing-to-lift-gay-ban-for-youth/

Ah, you misunderstood my intent. My meaning was I believe they were responsible for derailing the original compromise which would have left the policy in the hands of each chartering organization for its units. Thus the LDS units could have continued as is, but Unitarian Church units could have dropped the ban. What this does is to tell all Chartering Organizations they can only select straight Scout Leaders. Try to imagine how that is going to play out in Churches which ordain and call gay ministers and clergy. Answer, it isn't.

[Rivers]

I thought we segregated bathrooms and locker rooms because of the modesty issue. In any case SSA does throw a wrench in the works.

Maybe the BSA should just have a "Don't ask don't tell" policy. That could solve the issue.

[california boy]

Does anyone think that this new policy will be viewed as still not discriminating against gays? For corporations that have a policy of only contributing to organizations that don't discriminate, does anyone think that corporations will be comfortable with donating to the Boy Scouts that still discriminate against adult gays?

[Saints Alive]

Maybe the BSA should just have a "Don't ask don't tell" policy. That could solve the issue.

That is essentially what they had before this whole mess. The gay community is and always has been adamantly against DADT. I can understand that though, could you imagine if the BSA had a Mormon DADT policy.

Does anyone think that this new policy will be viewed as still not discriminating against gays? For corporations that have a policy of only contributing to organizations that don't discriminate, does anyone think that corporations will be comfortable with donating to the Boy Scouts that still discriminate against adult gays?

Of course it discriminates! but in todays society discrimination is a word next to child molestation.

[Stone holm]

Does anyone think that this new policy will be viewed as still not discriminating against gays? For corporations that have a policy of only contributing to organizations that don't discriminate, does anyone think that corporations will be comfortable with donating to the Boy Scouts that still discriminate against adult gays?

The problem with donations will remain because this just emphasizes the discrimination. The donations do not go to the local Scouting Units, but to the Councils and National -- had they gone with the original compromise, it would have gone a long way towards resolving that problem because the National and Councils would not have been doing the discriminating. I have even heard of Eagle Scouts scrubbing their resumes when applying for internships now because of corporate policies. It is going to present problems for some attorneys who serve as Judges as well since some jurisdictions are taking the position that this violates the code of ethics which bars belonging to groups which engage in discrimination. The original compromise made sense, this one doesn't.

[Craig in Austin]

Those same young men pass the sacrament to young women, Logically, this doesn't mean that they should be allowed to join young womens organizations and to go on over-nighters and sleep in the same tents as the young women.

Please folks, in your efforts to conform to pop culture and live in and of the world, let's not entirely take leave of your senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, I don't think it helps to resort to ad hominem responses here. I understand this is an emotionally charged issue. If a boy tells his bishop that he has ssa feelings, it doesn't change his gender, and I don't think anyone has proposed he camp out with the young women.

I have worked for many years in scouting, and with several boys who had ssa issues. Indeed, one eventually became openly gay, and left the church. I also have a friend with ssa issues, who served a mission, and eventually married a young woman and is raising a family. In m opinion, I think that blindly barring either of them from scouting or other youth activities would not have been the right answer. Indeed, if a boy tells his bishop that he has ssa feelings, it does not change his standing in the church, nor should it mean he cannot participate in ward activities with the other boys. That being said, I think we should use wisdom in things like open showers and maybe sleeping arrangements.

I think this reflects the current lds stance- I have found no direction in the GH to bar young men who struggle with ssa from any youth activities, whether it is a Fathers and Sons campout, or boy scout campouts. Maybe you can show where I am mistaken.

[Stone holm]

Wade, I don't think it helps to resort to ad hominem responses here. I understand this is an emotionally charged issue. If a boy tells his bishop that he has ssa feelings, it doesn't change his gender, and I don't think anyone has proposed he camp out with the young women.

I have worked for many years in scouting, and with several boys who had ssa issues. Indeed, one eventually became openly gay, and left the church. I also have a friend with ssa issues, who served a mission, and eventually married a young woman and is raising a family. In m opinion, I think that blindly barring either of them from scouting or other youth activities would not have been the right answer. Indeed, if a boy tells his bishop that he has ssa feelings, it does not change his standing in the church, nor should it mean he cannot participate in ward activities with the other boys. That being said, I think we should use wisdom in things like open showers and maybe sleeping arrangements.

I think this reflects the current lds stance- I have found no direction in the GH to bar young men who struggle with ssa from any youth activities, whether it is a Fathers and Sons campout, or boy scout campouts. Maybe you can show where I am mistaken.

Although I don't agree with this particular compromise, i agree with what you are saying in this comment.

[Buzzard]

Funny... from my perspective, any "God" or "Heavenly Father" that would force me to choose between Him or my husband, based on my husband's gender, isn't anyone I would consider to be worth (or worthy of) my time or adoration. I'd say the same of a God that forced me to choose between him or associating with any other of my family members, as well.

I'd suggest that scripture and approach isn't a winning strategy that's likely going to attact many people to the gospel. "Family First" probably works a lot better. ;-)

Daniel2

Funny, because from God's perspective, he is trying to get you to a place where you are worthy to receive all the blessings that he wants to bestow upon you. And if you are sexually active outside of a heterosexual marriage, you will never get to that place. And if it were not that way, than the Great Plan of Happiness, conceived before the foundations of the world were laid, would be brought to naught.

We humans think so short term. We want what we want, and we want it now, and we think we know better than God. He has the advantage of the longest perspective. I hope your not offended if I subscribe to his perspective over yours.

As to the BSA, I see it as the beginning of the end for what was once a wonderful institution. As they give in more and more to what the world demands, they will become less and less relevant to what boys really need.

[Stone holm]

Funny, because from God's perspective, he is trying to get you to a place where you are worthy to receive all the blessings that he wants to bestow upon you. And if you are sexually active outside of a heterosexual marriage, you will never get to that place. And if it were not that way, than the Great Plan of Happiness, conceived before the foundations of the world were laid, would be brought to naught.

We humans think so short term. We want what we want, and we want it now, and we think we know better than God. He has the advantage of the longest perspective. I hope your not offended if I subscribe to his perspective over yours.

As to the BSA, I see it as the beginning of the end for what was once a wonderful institution. As they give in more and more to what the world demands, they will become less and less relevant to what boys really need.

I agree that it is the beginning of the end of the BSA which still is a wonderful institution, but I believe it is going to be destroyed because of the religious tug of war between the various groups involved. There is already an alternative organization coming into being practicing Baden Powell's techniques, but which is open not only to straights, but gays of all ages and women of all ages. I have listened to this debate in liberal Mormon blogs and have tried to defend the BSA, but find that many, especially the sisters, want the connection with the BSA terminated regardless and it appears that both sides ends of the liberal/conservative spectrum now are pushing to terminate the connection, or at least pushing for policies that will eventually lead in that direction if they don't destroy the BSA first.

[wenglund]

Wade, I don't think it helps to resort to ad hominem responses here.

If you think my response was ad hominem, then you, along with many people, don't correctly understand what an ad hominem is.

I understand this is an emotionally charged issue. If a boy tells his bishop that he has ssa feelings, it doesn't change his gender, and I don't think anyone has proposed he camp out with the young women.

Your missing the point. There is a reason no one is proposing that heterosexual young men camp out and sleep with heterosexual young women. It would be terribly ill-advised. Right?

Yet, it is as problematic for young men with SSA to camp out and sleep with young men as it is for heterosexual young men to camp out and sleep with young women. Now do you see the point?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-