Boy Scouts Of America Compromise?

[Daniel2]

This is how the church will respond:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it. The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate legalized acts of immorality does not reduce the serious spiritual consequence that is the result of the violation of God’s law of chastity."

"The word tolerance is also invoked as though it overrules everything else. Tolerance may be a virtue, but it is not the commanding one. There is a difference between what one is and what one does. What one is may deserve unlimited tolerance; what one does, only a measured amount. A virtue when pressed to the extreme may turn into a vice. Unreasonable devotion to an ideal, without considering the practical application of it, ruins the ideal itself."

Boyd K. Packer

I think the best response to Elder Packer’s comments (and those like them) is to remember the words of another LDS apostle who exemplified a profound sense of humility that, in my opinion, will again be seen at some future date regarding gays, lesbians, and the LDS gospel:

“All Are Alike

unto God”

Bruce R. McConkie

Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this address was given at the CES Religious Educators Symposium on 18 August 1978.

I would like to say something about the new revelation relative to the priesthood going to those of all nations and races. “He [meaning Christ, who is the Lord God] inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile” (2 Nephi 26:33).

These words have now taken on a new meaning. We have caught a new vision of their true significance. This also applies to a great number of other passages in the revelations. Since the Lord gave this revelation on the priesthood, our understanding of many passages has expanded. Many of us never imagined or supposed that they had the extensive and broad meaning that they do have.

I shall give you a few impressions relative to what has happened, and then attempt—if properly guided by the Spirit—to indicate to you the great significance that this event has in the Church, in the world, and where the rolling forth of the great gospel is concerned.

The gospel goes to various peoples and nations on a priority basis. We were commanded in the early days of this dispensation to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. Our revelations talk about its going to every creature. There was, of course, no possible way for us to do all of this in the beginning days of our dispensation, nor can we now, in the full sense.

And so, guided by inspiration, we began to go from one nation and one culture to another. Someday, in the providences of the Lord, we shall get into Red China and Russia and the Middle East, and so on, until eventually the gospel will have been preached everywhere, to all people; and this will occur before the Second Coming of the Son of Man.

Not only is the gospel to go, on a priority basis and harmonious to a divine timetable, to one nation after another, but the whole history of God’s dealings with men on earth indicates that such has been the case in the past; it has been restricted and limited where many people are concerned. For instance, in the days between Moses and Christ, the gospel went to the house of Israel, almost exclusively. By the time of Jesus, the legal administrators and prophetic associates that he had were so fully indoctrinated with the concept of having the gospel go only to the house of Israel, that they were totally unable to envision the true significance of his proclamation that after the Resurrection they should then go to all the world. They did not go to the gentile nations initially. In his own ministration, Jesus preached only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and had so commanded the Apostles (see Matthew 10:6).

It is true that he made few minor exceptions because of the faith and devotion of some Gentile people. There was one woman who wanted to eat the crumbs that fell from the table of the children, causing him to say, “O woman, great is thy faith” (Matthew 15:28; see also Mark 7:27–28). With some minor exceptions, the gospel in that day went exclusively to Israel. The Lord had to give Peter the vision and revelation of the sheet coming down from heaven with the unclean meat on it, following which Cornelius sent the messenger to Peter to learn what he, Cornelius, and his gentile associates should do. The Lord commanded them that the gospel go to the Gentiles; and so it was. There was about a quarter of a century, then, in New Testament times, when there were extreme difficulties among the Saints. They were weighing and evaluating, struggling with the problem of whether the gospel was to go only to the house of Israel or whether it now went to all men. Could all men come to him on an equal basis with the seed of Abraham?

There have been these problems, and the Lord has permitted them to arise. There isn’t any question about that. We do not envision the whole reason and purpose behind all of it; we can only suppose and reason that it is on the basis of our premortal devotion and faith.

You know this principle: God “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him” (Acts 17:26–27)—meaning that there is an appointed time for successive nations and peoples and races and cultures to be offered the saving truths of the gospel. There are nations today to whom we have not gone—notably Red China and Russia. But you can rest assured that we will fulfill the requirement of taking the gospel to those nations before the Second Coming of the Son of Man.

And I have no hesitancy whatever in saying that before the Lord comes, in all those nations we will have congregations that are stable, secure, devoted, and sound. We will have stakes of Zion. We will have people who have progressed in spiritual things to the point where they have received all of the blessings of the house of the Lord. That is the destiny.

We have revelations that tell us that the gospel is to go to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people before the Second Coming of the Son of Man. And we have revelations which recite that when the Lord comes he will find those who speak every tongue and are members of every nation and kindred, who will be kings and priests, who will live and reign on earth with him a thousand years. That means, as you know, that people from all nations will have the blessings of the house of the Lord before the Second Coming.

We have read these passages and their associated passages for many years. We have seen what the words say and have said to ourselves, “Yes, it says that, but we must read out of it the taking of the gospel and the blessings of the temple to the Negro people, because they are denied certain things.” There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.

We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.

It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles.

Obviously, the Brethren have had a great anxiety and concern about this problem for a long period of time, and President Spencer W. Kimball has been exercised and has sought the Lord in faith. When we seek the Lord on a matter, with sufficient faith and devotion, he gives us an answer. You will recall that the Book of Mormon teaches that if the Apostles in Jerusalem had asked the Lord, he would have told them about the Nephites. But they didn’t ask, and they didn’t manifest that faith; and they didn’t get an answer. One underlying reason for what happened to us is that the Brethren asked in faith; they petitioned and desired and wanted an answer—President Kimball in particular. And the other underlying principle is that in the eternal providences of the Lord, the time had come for extending the gospel to a race and a culture to whom it had previously been denied, at least as far as all of its blessings are concerned. So it was a matter of faith and righteousness and seeking on the one hand, and it was a matter of the divine timetable on the other hand. The time had arrived when the gospel, with all its blessings and obligations, should go to the Negro.

Well, in that setting, on the first day of June in this year, 1978, the First Presidency and the Twelve, after full discussion of the proposition and all the premises and principles that are involved, importuned the Lord for a revelation. President Kimball was mouth, and he prayed with great faith and great fervor; this was one of those occasions when an inspired prayer was offered. You know the Doctrine and Covenants statement, that if we pray by the power of the Spirit we will receive answers to our prayers and it will be given us what we shall ask (see D&C 50:30). It was given President Kimball what he should ask. He prayed by the power of the Spirit, and there was perfect unity, total and complete harmony, between the Presidency and the Twelve on the issue involved.

And when President Kimball finished his prayer, the Lord gave a revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. Revelation primarily comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. Always that member of the Godhead is involved. But most revelations, from the beginning to now, have come in that way. There have been revelations given in various ways on other occasions. The Father and the Son appeared in the Sacred Grove. Moroni, an angel from heaven, came relative to instructing the Prophet in the affairs that were destined to occur in this dispensation. There have been visions, notably the vision of the degrees of glory. There may be an infinite number of ways that God can ordain that revelations come. But, primarily, revelation comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. The principle is set forth in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 68, that whatever the elders of the Church speak, when moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost, shall be scripture, shall be the mind and will and voice of the Lord.

On this occasion, because of the importuning and the faith, and because the hour and the time had arrived, the Lord in his providences poured out the Holy Ghost upon the First Presidency and the Twelve in a miraculous and marvelous manner, beyond anything that any then present had ever experienced. The revelation came to the president of the Church; it also came to each individual present. There were ten members of the Council of the Twelve and three of the First Presidency there assembled. The result was that President Kimball knew, and each one of us knew, independent of any other person, by direct and personal revelation to us, that the time had now come to extend the gospel and all its blessings and all its obligations, including the priesthood and the blessings of the house of the Lord, to those of every nation, culture, and race, including the black race. There was no question whatsoever as to what happened or as to the word and message that came.

The revelation came to the president of the Church and, in harmony with Church government, was announced by him; the announcement was made eight days later over the signature of the First Presidency. But in this instance, in addition to the revelation coming to the man who would announce it to the Church and to the world, and who was sustained as the mouthpiece of God on earth, the revelation came to every member of the body that I have named. They all knew it in the temple.

In my judgment this was done by the Lord in this way because it was a revelation of such tremendous significance and import; one which would reverse the whole direction of the Church, procedurally and administratively; one which would affect the living and the dead; one which would affect the total relationship that we have with the world; one, I say, of such significance that the Lord wanted independent witnesses who could bear record that the thing had happened.

Now if President Kimball had received the revelation and had asked for a sustaining vote, obviously he would have received it and the revelation would have been announced. But the Lord chose this other course, in my judgment, because of the tremendous import and the eternal significance of what was being revealed. This affects our missionary work and all of our preaching to the world. This affects our genealogical research and all of our temple ordinances. This affects what is going on in the spirit world, because the gospel is preached in the spirit world preparatory to men’s receiving the vicarious ordinances which make them heirs to salvation and exaltation. This is a revelation of tremendous significance.

The vision of the degrees of glory begins by saying, “Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth” (D&C 76:1). In other words, in that revelation the Lord was announcing truth to heaven and to earth because those principles of salvation operate on both sides of the veil; and salvation is administered to an extent here to men, and it is administered to another extent in the spirit world. We correlate and combine our activities and do certain things for the salvation of men while we are in mortality, and then certain things are done for the salvation of men while they are in the spirit world awaiting the day of the Resurrection.

Well, once again a revelation was given that affects this sphere of activity and the sphere that is to come. And so it had tremendous significance; the eternal import was such that it came in the way it did. The Lord could have sent messengers from the other side to deliver it, but he did not. He gave the revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. Latter-day Saints have a complex: many of them desire to magnify and build upon what has occurred, and they delight to think of miraculous things. And maybe some of them would like to believe that the Lord himself was there, or that the Prophet Joseph Smith came to deliver the revelation (see Time, 7 August 1978, p. 55), which was one of the possibilities. Well, these things did not happen. The stories that go around to the contrary are not factual or realistic or true, and you as teachers in the Church Educational System will be in a position to explain and to tell your students that this thing came by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that all the Brethren involved, the thirteen who were present, are independent personal witnesses of the truth and divinity of what occurred.

There is no way to describe in language what is involved. This cannot be done. You are familiar with Book of Mormon references where the account says that no tongue could tell and no pen could write what was involved in the experience and that it had to be felt by the power of the Spirit. This was one of those occasions. To carnal people who do not understand the operating of the Holy Spirit of God upon the souls of man, this may sound like gibberish or jargon or uncertainty or ambiguity; but to those who are enlightened by the power of the Spirit and who have themselves felt its power, it will have a ring of veracity and truth, and they will know of its verity. I cannot describe in words what happened; I can only say that it happened and that it can be known and understood only by the feeling that can come into the heart of man. You cannot describe a testimony to someone. No one can really know what a testimony is—the feeling and the joy and the rejoicing and the happiness that comes into the heart of man when he gets one—except another person who has received a testimony. Some things can be known only by revelation, “The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11).

This is a brief explanation of what was involved in this new revelation. I think I can add that it is one of the signs of the times. It is something that had to occur before the Second Coming. It was something that was mandatory and imperative in order to enable us to fulfill all of the revelations that are involved, in order to spread the gospel in the way that the scriptures say it must spread before the Lord comes, in order for all of the blessings to come to all of the people, according to the promises. It is one of the signs of the times. This revelation which came on the first day of June was reaffirmed by the spirit of inspiration one week later on June 8, when the Brethren approved the document that was to be announced to the world. And then it was reaffirmed the next day, on Friday, June 9, with all of the General Authorities present in the temple, that is, all who were available. All received the assurance and witness and confirmation by the power of the Spirit that what had occurred was the mind, the will, the intent, and the purpose of the Lord.

Well, this is a glorious day. This is a wondrous thing; the veil is thin. The Lord is not far distant from his church. He is not far removed.

President Kimball is a man of almost infinite spiritual capacity—a tremendous spiritual giant. The Lord has magnified him beyond any understanding or expression and has given him His mind and His will on a great number of vital matters which have altered the course of the past—one of which is the organization of the First Quorum of the Seventy. As you know, the Church is being guided and led by the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Lord’s hand is in it. There is no question whatever about that. And we are doing the right thing where this matter is concerned.

There has been a tremendous feeling of gratitude and thanksgiving in the hearts of members of the Church everywhere, with isolated exceptions. There are individuals who are out of harmony on this and on plural marriage and on other doctrines, but for all general purposes there has been universal acceptance; and everyone who has been in tune with the Spirit has known that the Lord spoke, and that his mind and his purposes are being manifest to the course the Church is pursuing. We have already called our first Negro elder. He has been assigned to serve in the Florida Fort Lauderdale Mission. We have already called our first Negro sister, assigned to the Brazil Rio de Janeiro Mission. This race and culture now is going to be one with us in bearing the burdens of the kingdom.

We talk about the scriptures being unfolded—read over again the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (see Matthew 20) and remind yourselves that those who labor through the heat of the day for twelve hours are going to be rewarded the same as those who came in at the third and the sixth and the eleventh hours. Well, it is the eleventh hour; it is the Saturday night of time. In this eleventh hour the Lord has given the blessings of the gospel to the last group of laborers in the vineyard. And when he metes out his rewards, when he makes his payments, according to the accounts and the scriptural statements, he will give the penny to all, whether it is for one hour or twelve hours of work. All are alike unto God, black and white, bond and free, male and female.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

Reuter's reports today:

Boy Scouts propose lifting ban on gays, but only for youth

By Atossa Araxia Abrahamian

NEW YORK | Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:03pm EDT

By Atossa Araxia Abrahamian

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Boy Scouts of America on Friday moved to partially lift its long-standing ban on gays, with a decision that would allow openly gay youth members but continue to bar gay adults in one of the largest youth serving organizations in America.

If the resolution is approved in a nationwide vote in May, "no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone," Deron Smith, the organization's spokesman, told Reuters.

The report found religious groups linked to the Scouts were concerned with homosexual adult leaders not with youth and concluded "a change in the membership policy specific to youth only would be consistent with the religious beliefs of the BSA's major chartered organizations."

Gay rights groups want the ban lifted for youth and adults and the proposal immediately drew criticism.

"By refusing to consider an end to its ban on gay and lesbian parents, the Boy Scouts have missed an opportunity to exercise leadership and usher the organization back to relevancy," said Rich Ferraro, Vice President of Communications at GLAAD, which promotes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights.

The resolution is the result of a study Smith called "the most comprehensive listening exercise in the history of Scouting" that found parents in three of four U.S. regions opposed the current membership policy.

While the issue remains divisive, "parents, adults in the Scouting community, and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting," concluded the study, which surveyed members, parents, religious groups and local councils.

"The Boy Scouts did not have an easy task and they decided that it does not make business sense to go forward with a policy that's being left in the dustbin of history," said Patrick Boyle, whose 1994 book "Scout's Honor" examined sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts of America.

"It wasn't very long ago that these guys stood before the Supreme Court and said that denying gays membership was a fundamental cornerstone belief of their organization," Boyle added, citing a 2000 Supreme Court ruling that granted the Boy Scouts the right to uphold their membership policy.

The BSA's decision comes amidst larger shifts in gay rights legislation in the United States. In the coming months, the Supreme Court will rule on whether to strike down parts of a federal law that defines marriage as the union between a man and a woman, and in 2011, a law that barred openly gay individuals from serving in the military was repealed.

Though it is unlikely to put the debate to rest, the BSA's vote in May will conclude months of public and internal debates that divided the youth group's organizers, polarized its corporate and religious sponsors, and placed the organization at the center of a nationwide debate over gay rights.

Chuck Small, a BSA adult leader and the parent of 10- and 12-year-old scouts in South Carolina, welcomed the latest change.

"It's a hard and divisive issue, but what it comes down to is that we learn more from people who are different from us than people who are like us," Small said.

"I want my boys to have that opportunity to learn from as many people as possible."

(Reporting By Atossa Araxia Abrahamian; Additional reporting by Chris Francescani; Editing by Vicki Allen and Andrew Hay)

This compromise appears to send mixed messages all around, and doesn't seem to me like a solution for the scouts that could last long. It creates a lot of problems.

For example, what happens when gay scouts get achieve the rank of Eagle, and want to continue to serve in their troops...? Are they automatically dis-enfranchised from their troops? One day they prove their dedication by achieving the highest rank possible and they're "in," and the next day they're "out"...?

Daniel2

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Wanderer7]

I think the best response to Elder Packer’s comments (and those like them) is to remember the words of another LDS apostle who exemplified a profound sense of humility that, in my opinion, will again be seen at some future date regarding gays, lesbians, and the LDS gospel:

I agree with Elder McConkie, but to assume that the same principle applies to sexual orientation is warranted nowhere in any revelation that has ever been received by the prophets and apostles. Race and sexual orientation are two totally different issues. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. And for what it's worth, homosexuals are not barred from any of the blessings of the gospel provided they refrain from sexual conduct as defined by the Lord, the same as everyone else, black or white, bond or free, male or female. That is the message of the gospel. The same blessings are available to all people, but all people must follow the same code of ethics. We can't expect to help people struggling with same-sex attraction by telling them it's ok to be gay. We need to preach the changing nature of the Atonement of Christ. The greatest discrimination in the world is telling gays that they can't change. Why do they not have the same access to the atonement of Jesus Christ that everyone else has? I don't care what science says, Jesus Christ can heal and change our very natures. That's the essence of the gospel. I'm not claiming to have the power to change people, or that everyone will overcome all their natural tendencies in this life. But how dare we rob them of hope?

[CASteinman]

I think the best response to Elder Packer’s comments (and those like them) is to remember the words of another LDS apostle who exemplified a profound sense of humility that, in my opinion, will again be seen at some future date regarding gays, lesbians, and the LDS gospel:

Being gay is not like being black.

Fortunately, we have the words of a humble and noble servant of God, Bruce McConkie, to clarify for us a key difference:

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves." Because they turned away from him, "God gave them up unto vile affections"—think now of homosexuals, and lesbians, and all those in the last days who revel in unclean, unholy, and unnatural sexual perversions—"for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet." Be it known that the sexual perversions sweeping the United States and other nations in this day are not of God. Those who pursue them are evil, degenerate, and depraved. It matters not what these advocates of lewdness and license may believe or say. These things are of the devil and lead to hell.... This is indeed a vile and hellish day in which carnality reigns, a day in which men are ripening in iniquity preparatory to the day of burning. In it there is but one ray of hope. The light of the gospel shines in the darkness, and all who will come to that light have power to rid themselves of the curses of carnality and to live as becometh saints."

- "Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man" Chapter 4.

Edited April 20, 2013 by CASteinman

[Scott Lloyd]

My take on this is that BSA (and, perhaps by extension, the Church) may have dodged a nasty confrontation with this "compromise," but it is hardly a departure from the past. It has been the policy not to inquire into the sexual orientation of boys admitted into Scout troops. indeed, most Scouting-age boys (the ones young enough still to take an interest in it) are hardly old enough to understand what their sexual orientaiton is.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[BCSpace]

I couldn't agree more Daniel2. I just came home from the movie "42" about Jackie Robinson, it showed how he was constantly told he didn't belong, along with others and weren't allowed in certain places because and only because, they were black. Slowly people came to change their thinking, just like what is happening right now with gays. Hopefully more and more people will love their neighbor as God commanded. Slippery slope... Slip on down, slip on down the slope, to the tune "move on down, move on down the road"

Except that black skin and a homosexual lifestyle are apples and oranges and don't compare.

[Stone holm]

I agree with the selected Elder Packer quotes in principle, but not in application. This compromise is flawed and will just serve to keep the controversy alive. The original compromise made better sense since it would have allowed each Chartering Organization to make up its own policy on the subject. This policy is going to drive more Organizations away from scouting, and leave a taint on scouting in general. The Churches which wanted to continue the ban could have done so.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Why are our restrooms gender seperated?

Because of the sexual issues involved.

If gay kids want to join scouts, let them join the Girl Scouts.

[Daniel2]

Why are our restrooms gender seperated?

Because of the sexual issues involved.

If gay kids want to join scouts, let them join the Girl Scouts.

As a gay kid that grew up changing and showering in locker rooms, tents, and homes alongside my straight friends, team mates, scouts, EFY and BYU roommates, and mission companionions, I'm biting my tongue to be polite, here.

Do you support lesbians joining BSA?

Do you support segregation of public bath and locker rooms and dorms based on sexual orientation?

I hear a lot of talk today lamenting "the sexualization of kids, these days." Just whom is sexualizing whom...?

Daniel2

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Tacenda]

As a gay kid that grew up changing ands showering in locker rooms, tents, and homes alongside my straight friends, team mates, scouts, EFY and BYU roommates, and mission companionions, I'm biting my tongue to be polite, here.

Do you support lesbians joining BSA?

Do you support segregation of public bath and locker rooms and dorms based on sexual orientation?

Daniel2

I skipped saying something too. It's just not worth the time or effort. Some people it wouldn't do any good.

[Brian 2.0]

In the not-so-far-away future I can see church members looking back on threads like this and Prop 8 and, having not been alive or old enough to remember it, just scratching their heads. "Did they really say stuff like this?" they'll say. And others in the church will have to remind them that "it was a different time back then in 2013... this was the general held beliefs of a lot back then." And the scratching head member will just continue scratching their head and say, "well, I'm glad we don't think like that anymore."

[Gillebre]

In the not-so-far-away future I can see church members looking back on threads like this and Prop 8 and, having not been alive or old enough to remember it, just scratching their heads. "Did they really say stuff like this?" they'll say. And others in the church will have to remind them that "it was a different time back then in 2013... this was the general held beliefs of a lot back then." And the scratching head member will just continue scratching their head and say, "well, I'm glad we don't think like that anymore."

Yeah, then they'll add, "Gosh, I'm glad we did away with those discriminatory commandments like the law of chastity, and those annoying temple recommend questions. Totally unfair to people who love each other. That's what matters most: love."

and they'd be wrong. love between two people is not what matters most. God and His commandments are what matter most. Didn't Jesus say that they who loved their mother more than Him was not worthy of Him? I'm quite certain the same could be said this way, "They who love their partner/boyfriend/girlfriend more than Me is not worthy of Me."

Edited April 20, 2013 by Gillebre

[wenglund]

Experience tells me that gay activist won't be satisfied until they entirely get their way. Please keep in mind that gay activist and their willing accomplices in the media aren't haranguing the BSA because they deeply admire that organization and what it stands for and just want to make it better. In fact, I suspect just the opposite. Rather, this mountain made of a mole hill is but one piece in a larger agenda to normalize homosexuality. It is also indirectly a part of the war on religion.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 20, 2013 by wenglund

[Craig in Austin]

This is an interesting issue. Do we allow an lds boy to pass or bless the sacrament, if he claims SSA? Of course we should, unless he acts on it. So should this boy be allowed to participate in scouting and receive rank advancement? Of course- this is the current lds policy.

A scout should be "morally straight". I think the term "straight" can be confusing, because of "gay/straight" terminology. How many boys in scouting are screened for being

"morally straight"? What exactly does "morally straight" mean? The answer may be different between lds and non-lds scouts, since different Christians (and non-Christians) have different standards. Should non-lds boys in lds troops be held to the same moral standards as lds boys? And for lds boys, exactly which misdeeds should bar him from scouting? For example, is self-abuse a misdeed, that should bar a boy from scouting or rank advancement? If "morally straight" includes non-sexual items (and I think it does), which misdeeds should bar a boy from participating in scouting? How many boys are granted rank advancement, even though they are not "morally straight"? Should a boy scout be barred from scouting or rank advancement, if he has committed a sexual misdeed with a girl? Is this even checked in a board of review? Are all boy scouts "inspected" regularly, to find which ones are not "morally straight", so they can be expelled?

One concern is that boys in scouting with SSA will influence other boys, to "convert", or to "experiment". I think this is a valid concern, but I don't think barring all boys with ssa is the answer. Should we bar all heterosexual boys because they may "influence" other scouts to be promiscuous or not be "morally straight"? .

[Daniel2]

love between two people is not what matters most. God and His commandments are what matter most. Didn't Jesus say that they who loved their mother more than Him was not worthy of Him? I'm quite certain the same could be said this way, "They who love their partner/boyfriend/girlfriend more than Me is not worthy of Me."

Funny... from my perspective, any "God" or "Heavenly Father" that would force me to choose between Him or my husband, based on my husband's gender, isn't anyone I would consider to be worth (or worthy of) my time or adoration. I'd say the same of a God that forced me to choose between him or associating with any other of my family members, as well.

I'd suggest that scripture and approach isn't a winning strategy that's likely going to attact many people to the gospel. "Family First" probably works a lot better. ;-)

Daniel2

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Wanderer7]

Funny... from my perspective, any "God" or "Heavenly Father" that would force me to choose between Him or my husband, based on my husband's gender, isn't anyone I would consider to be worth (or worthy of) my time or adoration. I'd say the same of a God that forced me to choose between him or associating with any other of my family members, as well.

I'd suggest that scripture and approach isn't a winning strategy that's likely going to attact many people to the gospel. "Family First" probably works a lot better. ;-)

Daniel2

Yet Jesus repeatedly taught it. It's absolutely the truth. We don't get to determine that based on personal feelings. How many converts have left family to join the church? God even commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, and until he was willing to do it, he was not told to stop. God wants our hearts. That's why the first and great commandment is "not love others as yourself" or "honor your Father and your Mother." Yes, those are good things to do, but not over loving God at any cost. That is the price for eternal life, whether we are willing to pay it or not. The price each of us is willing to pay will determine the glory we receive in the life to come. And, ironically enough, only those who are willing to sacrifice everything, including their family, will be able to live with their family for eternity. I rather suspect that when the day comes that we see God again and feel the all-consuming love He has for us, it's a price we will be willing to pay. Our job is to make sure at that day, it won't be too late.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Wanderer7

[Daniel2]

That may be, but I'll let you tell that to the One who said it.

Aside from the fact that I've mentioned it to Him on more than one occassion, presuming He's also supposedly omniscient, He's already very aware of my thoughts on the matter. ;-). Change will occur, as soon as enough people with limited understanding and who won't accept the changes pass on to greener pastures.

Daniel2

[Wanderer7]

Aside from the fact that I've mentioned it to Him on more than one occassion, presuming He's also supposedly omniscient, He's already very aware of my thoughts on the matter. ;-). Change will occur, as soon as enough people with limited understanding and who won't accept the changes pass on to greener pastures.

Daniel2

Woops. Sorry, I edited my post before yours got posted I guess. That was my original post. I realized it sounded too sarcastic for my taste. I apologize for that.

[Daniel2]

Yet Jesus repeatedly taught it. It's absolutely the truth. We don't get to determine that based on personal feelings. How many converts have left family to join the church? God even commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, and until he was willing to do it, he was not told to stop. God wants our hearts. That's why the first and great commandment is "not love others as yourself" or "honor your Father and your Mother." Yes, those are good things to do, but not over loving God at any cost. That is the price for eternal life, whether we are willing to pay it or not. The price each of us is willing to pay will determine the glory we receive in the life to come. And, ironically enough, only those who are willing to sacrifice everything, including their family, will be able to live with their family for eternity. I rather suspect that when the day comes that we see God again and feel the all-consuming love He has for us, it's a price we will be willing to pay. Our job is to make sure at that day, it won't be too late.

I'm not sure that it's accurate to say that Jesus "repeatedly" taught it... But regardless of how many times he did, I still don't feel that it's a particularly winning strategy. I'm very aware of the Mormon plan of salvation--I just have absolutely no interest in trying to win the approval, or eternally dwelling in the presence, of an almighty being who's plan requires the type of adoration, personal and familial sacrifice, and suspension of my values and beliefs that run contrary to that which you've described.

I feel the same way about any allegedly omnipotent authority figure who couldn't devise a system of justice or expect forgiveness without requiring that a child be killed (whether that child be the baby of a prophet as some test of blind obedience, or the brutal murder of an innocent 33-year-old man). If the police caught Abraham in the act of sacrificing his son today, I'd hope they lock him up and never let him see his son again.

So... Yeah. My problems with Mormonisn (and Christianity) run far deeper than merely asking me to sacrifice a relationship with a loving man in the here and now for a supposed eternal reward in an uncertain afterlife. For me, life and loving relationships are too precious to waste.

Daniel2

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Calm]

If they are out you have to accept that risk knowingly

And this gives you the chance to act on that knowledge, to discuss with the boys the issue so as to ensure everyone is comfortable and hopefully safe (I am not talking about the gay boy molesting another...though that is of course always possible, I think the higher probability is that without communication there will be misunderstandings that might lead to either fighting or bullying by any of the scouts involved).

[Calm]

Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprise if the church was involved in the compromise. I don't know that for sure though. I wonder if all the news focus on Boston had to do with the BSAs decision to make this change now.

Wasn't it announced they would come out with a decision at this time prior to the tragedy?

[Calm]

Why are our restrooms gender seperated?

Because of the sexual issues involved.

If gay kids want to join scouts, let them join the Girl Scouts.

Right, because then there would be no attraction to them on the part of the heterosexual girls. (even if one disregards the issues of privacy) Edited April 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

Wasn't it announced they would come out with a decision at this time prior to the tragedy?

No, they said an announcement would be made in may after the national conference voted on it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Right, because then there would be no attraction to them on the part of the heterosexual girls. (even if one disregards the issues of privacy)

And if they are homosexual, as they claim, the attention of the ladies won't matter.

Perhaps, they need to set up a boys and girls program for the in-betweeners.

But whatever may happen, forcing boys to go on campouts with boys who may have a sexual attraction to them is not the solution.

(and to the question of another scoffer... If a homosexual female wants to join BSA, more power to her. She would probably enjoy the BSA activities more anyway.)

Edited April 21, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Calm]

And if they are homosexual, as they claim, the attention of the ladies won't matter.

Except to the ladies.

It is the same thing, only the reverse if the homosexual boys were to remain with the heterosexual groups, except in that case the homosexual boys are not the target of physical attraction, but rather the givers of such...as were the girls in the Girl Scout troop.

She would probably enjoy the BSA activities more anyway

Because they are better than the GSA ones or because she is more likely to be 'mannish'?