Did We Really Choose Which Family We Would Be Born To?

[BlueDreams]

if we did choose then I don't know why we didn't all choose to be into wealthy families

Supply and demand ethos of spiritual beings states quite clearly in Article 3B-456 that only some could get the coveted spots as bill Gates' kids. The rest of us got the left over parents. The footnote to that article states: "Life sucks, welcome to earth." If you want a CFR, you'll have to wait till we're dead and I can show you the book....but I assure you I remember quite clearly reading it before I fell just shy of the gates foundation and into my place on earth.

Bullfrog

Did some choose abusive LDS?

Did some choose failed abortion?

We choose to accept to come here. Beyond that I don't know. What I do know personally for myself is that I was supposed to be in the (crazy) family that I'm in. I believe it very strongly...and that a good part of that reason was for my brothers. How that all came to be, I have no idea. I'm sure it wasn't 100% random, but I'm also sure that what determined it probably had a bit to do with my decision as well as what God needed me to do.

With luv,

BD

Edited April 5, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Duncan]

Supply and demand ethos of spiritual beings states quite clearly in Article 3B-456 that only some could get the coveted spots as bill Gates' kids. The rest of us got the left over parents. The footnote to that article states: "Life sucks, welcome to earth." If you want a CFR, you'll have to wait till we're dead and I can show you the book....but I assure you I remember quite clearly reading it before I fell just shy of the gates foundation and into my place on earth.

Bullfrog

We choose to accept to come here. Beyond that I don't know. What I do know personally for myself is that I was supposed to be in the (crazy) family that I'm in. I believe it very strongly...and that a good part of that reason was for my brothers. How that all came to be, I have no idea. I'm sure it wasn't 100% random, but I'm also sure that what determined it probably had a bit to do with my decision as well as what God needed me to do.

With luv,

BD

haha! well, I got good parents not rich but comfortable and lovable

[JAHS]

In the Pre-earth life the only choice we made that we know about was to follow the plan of God. After that there's nothing but speculation about any other choices in regards to what families we come to or when we come. There is scriptural evidence that in our pre-earth life as spirit children of God certain individual were selected to come forth in mortality at specified times, under certain conditions, and to fulfill predesignated responsibilities. (See Jer. 1:5, Abr 3: 22-23)

Acts 17: 26:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26)

So according to Paul and the other scriptures many spirits may have been foreordained to specific nations and generations ("bounds of habitation"), as well as to varied assignments, work, or missions on earth.

But I think as far as we know these foreordinations were made by God according to His judgment with little if any input from ourselves.

[rpn]

I don't see how it would be possible for all of us to have chosen our family in the pre-existence. That could only happen if everyone did on earth exactly what they planned to do before, and they knew enough to plan for every contingency. Further, the formation of families is a mortal endeavor.

But it is possible that some people did know and make mutual decisions of fidelity to each other before they came to earth.

[canard78]

If nobody gets a free ride then what about our folklore concerning the severely mentally deficient ?

Folklore...

[canard78]

if we did choose then I don't know why we didn't all choose to be into wealthy families

In The God Who Weeps (p.60), the Givens say:

"Plato... thought life was most likely a choice... spirits were allowed to select their lives from a range of situations and environments. Intuitively, most would choose the easy and attractive path through mortality, but Plato indicates that... the comfortable, effortless life was, in all likelihood, not the life most wisely chosen. The greater good... was the quest for greater virtue and goodness... "call a life worse," he said, "if it leads a soul to become more unjust, and better if it leads the soul to become more just."

[canard78]

In the Pre-earth life the only choice we made that we know about was to follow the plan of God. After that there's nothing but speculation about any other choices in regards to what families we come to or when we come. There is scriptural evidence that in our pre-earth life as spirit children of God certain individual were selected to come forth in mortality at specified times, under certain conditions, and to fulfill predesignated responsibilities. (See Jer. 1:5, Abr 3: 22-23)

Acts 17: 26:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26)

So according to Paul and the other scriptures many spirits may have been foreordained to specific nations and generations ("bounds of habitation"), as well as to varied assignments, work, or missions on earth.

But I think as far as we know these foreordinations were made by God according to His judgment with little if any input from ourselves.

What if it's entirely or partly the opposite? What if we were involved in selecting the nature of our experience. If not the exact environment, at least a range of conditions. Student lead learning is considered to be a great approach if the teacher has the resources to support this. Given we have a 1-2-1 student-teacher scenario, this makes it even more promising.

But here's a thought. What if we suffer... not because God is unwilling to intervene... but because at some point at the beginning of days... in some premortal planning process... we made God promise not to if certain scenarios came up?

If God weeps at our pains and sorrows... if He weeps at our misery... is it because He would remove the pain if he could but is bound not to by our own request. Made at a time we have forgotten. Before the veil made our understanding of pain unable to see the eventual benefit.

This may seem ridiculous. Why would anyone choose to be a starving child? Or an abused child? Or a homosexual Mormon with no opportunity of a relationship in mortality? Why would anyone want to die of the ravages of cancer? Why would anyone want their lives and families ripped apart by alcoholism or other addictions? Why would someone want a bipolar disorder?

I don't believe in predestination. I don't think there was some pre-earth check list where we got to choose our trials. There are far too many variables for this. But perhaps we accepted certain possibilities based on biological or social scenarios. Perhaps we embraced the shaping opportunity of one unpleasant experience or another. Because we knew it would be "good for us" even though right now, while living it, we're convinced it's not.

http://manyotherhands.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/why-do-good-people-suffer.html?m=1

[canard78]

I don't see how it would be possible for all of us to have chosen our family in the pre-existence. That could only happen if everyone did on earth exactly what they planned to do before, and they knew enough to plan for every contingency. Further, the formation of families is a mortal endeavor.

But it is possible that some people did know and make mutual decisions of fidelity to each other before they came to earth.

I agree with this. There are far too many variables to allow everyone to have 'only one' to find. It would have huge implications for moral agency to allow this to be possible.

Tim Minchin has a genius song. Here are a couple of verses from it:

If I didn't have you to hold me tight

(If I didn't have you)

If I didn't have you to lie with at night

(When I'm feeling blue)

If I didn't have you to share my sighs

(Share my sighs)

And to kiss me and dry my tears when I cry

Well I really think that I would...

Have somebody else

(If I didn't have you)

If I didn't have you, someone else would do

Your love is one in a million

(One in a million)

You couldn't buy it at any price

(Can't buy love)

But of the 9.999 hundred thousand other loves

Statistically, some of them would be equally nice

(Equally nice)

Or maybe not as nice but, say, smarter than you

Or dumber but better at sport or tracing

I'm just saying

(I really think that I would)

Probably

(Have somebody else)

I'll let you look up the rest of the song if you like (ahem, some versions may be a little less 'church talent show' appropriate).

[Stone holm]

Folklore...

Didn't mean that derogatorily, just meant that I know of know actual proclamation of doctrine on the subject, but it is a belief that has developed amongst the Mormon community, which I believe is very much an improvement over Medieval Christian beliefs that such were inhabited by cursed spirits.

[Stargazer]

In the Pre-earth life the only choice we made that we know about was to follow the plan of God. After that there's nothing but speculation about any other choices in regards to what families we come to or when we come. There is scriptural evidence that in our pre-earth life as spirit children of God certain individual were selected to come forth in mortality at specified times, under certain conditions, and to fulfill predesignated responsibilities. (See Jer. 1:5, Abr 3: 22-23)

But why would not every single one of us been chosen for specific times, conditions, and responsibilities? Just because only a couple of scripture verses name certain people in this way? What is it about absence of evidence that makes you think that is evidence of absence?

I know a man, who is pretty much a common brother in the church, holding no special calling, whose patriarchal blessing tells him that he was not sent to earth by chance, but with his approval, and his Father's explicit instructions and desire. It seems likely to me that he wouldn't be alone in this way. Perhaps he had been foreordained to be much more than he has become, and has failed and thus missed the callings the Father intended for him? Or perhaps we all came here with certain expectations, and only a few of us receive an expression of those expectations.

I do not even believe that God runs the Universe based on the roll of dice, much less that he sends His children into totally random and unexpected (to Him) circumstances.

[Bikeemikey]

Speculative answers won't help you receive the comfort you may or may not stand in need of. Only humble prayer will ease one's troubled spirit.

However, I will indulge your questions:

I think it would be more accurate to say that we were aware of what circumstances would accompany our life, and we agreed to them.

All in my opinion, of course.

I think at best we knew our lives may possibly range from being horrifically brutal to luxuriously comfortable, and yet had enough trust in Gods plan that our final "judgement" would take all of that into account, and that the worst possible outcome was likely to be substantially better off that the pre-existing status quo of the pre-earth life, hence justifying the risk (to the 66% who went with it at least).

Really makes you want to re-read Rawls' veil that he postulated about as part of his "theory of justice".

Edited April 6, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[canard78]

Didn't mean that derogatorily, just meant that I know of know actual proclamation of doctrine on the subject, but it is a belief that has developed amongst the Mormon community, which I believe is very much an improvement over Medieval Christian beliefs that such were inhabited by cursed spirits.

I'm of the opinion that our experience in this and the the next is a continuation. So while some people have what be called a limited experience in this life (infant death/severe mental disability) there's still an expectation for their eternal life.

Maybe they were "more valiant" and only needed a body and then move on. Maybe they weren't and are left having to learn things in the spirit world without a body that are so much easier with one.

[canard78]

I agree with this. There are far too many variables to allow everyone to have 'only one' to find. It would have huge implications for moral agency to allow this to be possible.

Tim Minchin has a genius song. Here are a couple of verses from it:

I'll let you look up the rest of the song if you like (ahem, some versions may be a little less 'church talent show' appropriate).

I found a version of the song that's 'clean' and very funny.

[blackstrap]

Consider a mission call. You don't have a lot of input as to where you go. You have some. You prepare(some better than others) and in the end still get the right of first refusal. You go where you are needed according to the requirements of the world mission field at the time. There is inspiration in the call,and perspiration,and desperation. I had a mission comp in the MTC that could not learn the lessons in Spanish. He was transferred to the Hawaii mission. Many of us were tempted to fake a learning disability after that. We were only vaguely apprised of the trials we were to face,yet we were happy to serve wherever. Did my mission experience influence the rest of my life?. You bet. Could I have served elsewhere? Sure. It's what I did with what I was given that mattered.

[Stargazer]

Consider a mission call. You don't have a lot of input as to where you go. You have some. You prepare(some better than others) and in the end still get the right of first refusal. You go where you are needed according to the requirements of the world mission field at the time. There is inspiration in the call,and perspiration,and desperation. I had a mission comp in the MTC that could not learn the lessons in Spanish. He was transferred to the Hawaii mission. Many of us were tempted to fake a learning disability after that. We were only vaguely apprised of the trials we were to face,yet we were happy to serve wherever. Did my mission experience influence the rest of my life?. You bet. Could I have served elsewhere? Sure. It's what I did with what I was given that mattered.

There was a missionary in the German Language Training Mission in Provo (in the dark days before the MTC) in my district who had the doggonedest time learning German. He managed to pass off the 1st discussion by the end of the 8 weeks, otherwise he, too, might have gone to Hawaii. He went to a different mission than I, but we all tried to keep in touch, and in the "Chain Letter" we all passed around he managed to become a senior companion just before his 2 years were up.

The funny thing is, I recall having been required to take a language-learning aptitude test when I put in my application. He must have passed it, or else the results didn't matter.

Anyone here who went on a non-English mission have to take a language-learning aptitude test?

[Bikeemikey]

There was a missionary in the German Language Training Mission in Provo (in the dark days before the MTC) in my district who had the doggonedest time learning German. He managed to pass off the 1st discussion by the end of the 8 weeks, otherwise he, too, might have gone to Hawaii. He went to a different mission than I, but we all tried to keep in touch, and in the "Chain Letter" we all passed around he managed to become a senior companion just before his 2 years were up.

The funny thing is, I recall having been required to take a language-learning aptitude test when I put in my application. He must have passed it, or else the results didn't matter.

Anyone here who went on a non-English mission have to take a language-learning aptitude test?

I went Mandarin speaking... no test for me.

[Stone holm]

I went Mandarin speaking... no test for me.

I doubt that we had a zillion prospective missionaries who spoke Mandarin. My son put down that he had taken Spanish and got sent to Spain of course taking Spanish at the HS he went to was about as effective as if they had been teaching Russian and calling it Spanish, I think he could have ordered tacos just about everywhere though so long as he was at a Taco Bell though. The Spanish, however, didn't mind since they weren't interested in religion so soon after getting rid of the Franco's . They just wound up teaching South Americans living in Spain.

[Stargazer]

I doubt that we had a zillion prospective missionaries who spoke Mandarin. My son put down that he had taken Spanish and got sent to Spain of course taking Spanish at the HS he went to was about as effective as if they had been teaching Russian and calling it Spanish, I think he could have ordered tacos just about everywhere though so long as he was at a Taco Bell though. The Spanish, however, didn't mind since they weren't interested in religion so soon after getting rid of the Franco's . They just wound up teaching South Americans living in Spain.

No, that wasn't it. I was talking about a language aptitude test. They probably don't use it any more.

I got sent to Germany, possibly because half my ancestry is German. But who knows? I sure don't.