For Those Who Are Struggling With Their Faith

[PoisonWell]

CFR

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

[mfbukowski]

At least, I thought that's what we were talking about. Sorry if I'm looking tangential, but I could've sworn this started on the topic of evolution.

The word evolution doesn't appear until page 10, and I was the first to mention it.

[PoisonWell]

The word evolution doesn't appear until page 10, and I was the first to mention it.

That's what we were discussing. Looking back, I really wasn't going off on a tangent. You said:

It is not that the discoveries have revised the understandings- it's that the understandings OF what such a "discovery" actually IS have changed

And I still think that's simply bullocks as you haven't even said anything relating to it since.

[canard78]

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

'Call for references.' You said the church position on evolution used to be wrong. MFB is saying 'prove it.' Given this forum has a fairly academic origin it's considered appropriate for people to back up their claims with evidence or retract them.

[PoisonWell]

'Call for references.' You said the church position on evolution used to be wrong. MFB is saying 'prove it.' Given this forum has a fairly academic origin it's considered appropriate for people to back up their claims with evidence or retract them.

Oh, I'd never read that before, thanks.

Here's a manual that shows the church taught that evolution is false. https://www.lds.org/...is-1-2?lang=eng

Here are some quotes from this manual. I've added bold for emphasis.

In the world another theory of how things began is popularly held and widely taught. This theory, that of organic evolution, was generally developed from the writings of Charles Darwin. It puts forth different ideas concerning how life began and where man came from. In relation to this theory, the following statements should help you understand what the Church teaches about the Creation and the origin of man.

“Of course, I think those people who hold to the view that man has come up through all these ages from the scum of the sea through billions of years do not believe in Adam. Honestly I do not know how they can, and I am going to show you that they do not. There are some who attempt to do it but they are inconsistent—absolutely inconsistent, because that doctrine is so incompatible, so utterly out of harmony, with the revelations of the Lord that a man just cannot believe in both.

“… I say most emphatically, you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man, and at the same time accept the plan of salvation as set forth by the Lord our God. You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so. …

“… Then Adam, and by that I mean the first man, was not capable of sin. He could not transgress, and by doing so bring death into the world; for, according to this theory, death had always been in the world. If, therefore, there was no fall, there was no need of an atonement, hence the coming into the world of the Son of God as the Savior of the world is a contradiction, a thing impossible. Are you prepared to believe such a thing as that?” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:141–42.)

And there's even more, if you want to go through the link, to show that the church rejected evolution in the past.

Any apologist who believes evolution should go through that to check their biases. It should cause some pretty impressive cog dis. It's strange to see how little things have changed, it reads like something straight out of the fair wiki.

I think we all know that the church takes a neutral stance now, so unless requested, I'm not going to link to evidence of that.

Edited April 12, 2013 by PoisonWell

[mfbukowski]

Duplicate

Edited April 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

It means call for reference- board rules dictate that you bring a statement saying that the "Church" - whatever that means- condemned evolution and then changed their stance to neutrality, or retract the statement.

[mfbukowski]

Oh, I'd never read that before, thanks.

Here's a manual that shows the church taught that evolution is false. https://www.lds.org/...is-1-2?lang=eng

Here are some quotes from this manual. I've added bold for emphasis.

And there's even more, if you want to go through the link, to show that the church rejected evolution in the past.

Any apologist who believes evolution should go through that to check their biases. It should cause some pretty impressive cog dis. It's strange to see how little things have changed, it reads like something straight out of the fair wiki.

I think we all know that the church takes a neutral stance now, so unless requested, I'm not going to link to evidence of that.

No, you are quote mining and ignoring the rest of the article!

The quote you have selected is from one man, Joseph F. Smith who yes- was a prophet, who made some statements about what is implied to be "evolution" which clearly he did not fully understand. The quote is used to demonstrate one point of view

BUT THE CONCLUSION OF THE ARTICLE, HAD YOU READ THE REST OF THE ARTICLE, says this:

Conclusion

“Constant exposure to one theory of origins, and only one, has convinced many that no alternative exists and that evolution must be the full and complete answer. How unfortunate that most of the millions who pass through the educational process have little opportunity to weigh the evidences on both sides!

“Examinations of the fossils, stony records of the past, tell us that complicated living things suddenly (without warning, so to speak) began to exist on the earth. Furthermore, time has not modified them enough to change their basic relationships to each other. Modern living organisms tell us that change is a feature of life and time, but they also tell us that there are limits beyond which they do not pass naturally and beyond which man has been unable to force them. In consideration of past or present living things, man must never forget that he is dealing with life, a profoundly unique force which he has not been able to create and which he is trying desperately to understand.

“Here are the facts; here are the evidences; here, then, are the sound reasons for believing life originated through a creative act. It is time that each individual has the opportunity to know the facts and to make an intelligent choice.” (Coffin, Creation, p. [15].)

What "the church" is actually saying is "know the facts and make an intelligent choice".

That is hardly a condemnation of the theory of evolution. Incidentally I am not arguing in favor of Darwinian evolution- I have my own ideas about that, just as the article suggests we should. As I said earlier, I think strict Darwinianism is pretty shallow stuff.

My advice to you is to slow down and actually use your mind and THINK before you let your mouth run.

And we have not even got to a discussion of whether or not one prophet's statement or a church manual constitutes "Church doctrine". (It does not)

And you have not shown either that "the church" has changed their position on what this article, flawed as it may be, ACTUALLY SAYS.

[Robert F. Smith]

Oh, I'd never read that before, thanks.

Here's a manual that shows the church taught that evolution is false. https://www.lds.org/...is-1-2?lang=eng

Here are some quotes from this manual. I've added bold for emphasis.

And there's even more, if you want to go through the link, to show that the church rejected evolution in the past.

Any apologist who believes evolution should go through that to check their biases. It should cause some pretty impressive cog dis. It's strange to see how little things have changed, it reads like something straight out of the fair wiki.

I think we all know that the church takes a neutral stance now, so unless requested, I'm not going to link to evidence of that.

Bukowski is quite correct. The LDS Church never had a position on evolutionary theory, Darwinian or otherwise. There were individual apostles who sharply disagreed with one another on the issue, namely James Talmage and John Widtsoe both at odds with Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Church takes a neutral stance on a number of issues which are not directly relevant to LDS theology nor to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[mfbukowski]

Waxing solipsistic, it seems.

Again you have shown absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about. My actual position is almost the direct opposite of this. In fact what we call "reality" is constituted by the total experiences of all of mankind, even you.

If I were a solipsist, I would have definitely eliminated this alleged "discussion" from my dream of reality long ago. It is a waste of time.

[canard78]

Bukowski is quite correct. The LDS Church never had a position on evolutionary theory, Darwinian or otherwise. There were individual apostles who sharply disagreed with one another on the issue, namely James Talmage and John Widtsoe both at odds with Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Church takes a neutral stance on a number of issues which are not directly relevant to LDS theology nor to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Whenever someone calls him just Bukowski I always have the image of Mike Wazowski in Monsters Inc and the grating sound of the slug-like supervisor calling for his paperwork.

[TAO]

Whenever someone calls him just Bukowski I always have the image of Mike Wazowski in Monsters Inc and the grating sound of the slug-like supervisor calling for his paperwork.

[canard78]

Thanks TAO, that's exactly what I was thinking. MFB, does this ring true?

[Calm]

Whenever someone calls him just Bukowski I always have the image of Mike Wazowski in Monsters Inc and the grating sound of the slug-like supervisor calling for his paperwork.

Perfect...

Now I am going to have that stuck in my head thanks to you and Tao.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks TAO, that's exactly what I was thinking. MFB, does this ring true?

You guys crack me up- and yes it rings true! I usta work for food services at UCLA when I was a student there and our job was to take food prepared in the dorm kitchens down to campus for professorial meetings and seminars, Regents meetings, etc. I even got to meet a few movie stars when we did stuff for the film school.

They actually had a chef to prepare the food- we are NOT talking dorm food here! (the best perk was that we had first crack at the extra food- we are talking steaks, wonderful salads etc!)

I learned a lot about people from that job because when you are a server, people think you are wallpaper- you get ignored while all the conversation about "secret stuff" swirls around while you innocently pour more coffee. It would be a great job for a spy. I remember one well known actress who was talking to another well-known director, very calmly and pleasantly, and when he would turn his head she would make faces behind his back! And at the same time a famous TV actor was hitting on the famous screen actress but she would have nothing to do with him. Here she was "kissing up" to the director and ignoring the actor while actually disdaining both.

It was a pretty amazing experience actually. I just kept on falling into situations where some amazing people were doing amazing things, and I was totally invisible- a fly on the wall. My wife calls me the "REAL Forrest Gump"

But I had one boss who kind of looked like that boss character in the clip- at least to me- who had a southern accent and she would say "I'm watching you! Gotta move a little fastah thayeh Mahk" when I was pushing the carts or unloading the truck.

Whenever I see that I think of her!!

Edited April 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Denise]

I find that I wish for a lot of things these days. I wish for there to be a god. I wish for him to be all the beautiful real things that I was taught in the church. I wish for the boyant, excited "faith" of the first few years of my membership. On the other hand, I know things now that make it impossible to go back.

I can no longer be the goose-stepping, cookie-cut Molly Mormon that I see active mormons strieving to be. I can't ignore what I now see as repeditive wasted hours listening to the same lessons over and over again, or the testimony meeting filled with tears and "I know the church is true". I can't pretend that the retoric, distilled-down-to-basic church approved gospel doctrine is all I need to just acccept the church and be joyful. I wish I could be as accepting and naive as I was but I can't go back and I don't know which way to go.

My husband is a long suffering active mormon spouse. Two of my children are active, one an agnostic and one an atheist. The other four just hang around the edges.

I know that there is a difference between the Church of God and the way it is conducted by fallible leaders. But I never get that far because I am still wrestling with "Is there a god?". There. I actually wrote it down.

Why would God make it so hard to communicate with him? Answers to prayers are yes, no or nothing. If everything goes well, God gets the credit. If not, well the petitioner must have lacked in faith. If there is some great God Plan, why pray in the first place? If God knows what's best for us and we have trials and pain to help us grow, why pray?

If any prayer is concerned with someone else and agency is involved, why pray? (I am thinking of hours of fasting and praying on my knees for my adulterous ex-husband to be "touched by the spirit" and "have his heart softened".) So others agency can wipe out prayers. How can a bunch of names on the prayer roll be prayed for by groups of people that don't even know them and actually help.

I know I'm rambling. I'm a 56 year old grad student and feel like a 19 year old investigator. I WANT God to be there! I WANT the church to be true! But I can't get out of this rut, and "read your scriptures" and "fast and pray" isn't cutting it. My ward leaders think I am an apostate and give me the same pat answers. Maybe I am lost for good.

[volgadon]

I can no longer be the goose-stepping, cookie-cut Molly Mormon that I see active mormons strieving to be.

My goose-step never quite succeeds in being anything other than an outtake from a Monty Mython sketch, so that is probably why I haven't been made bishop yet...

[Calm]

never mind

Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Brian 2.0]

I find that I wish for a lot of things these days. I wish for there to be a god. I wish for him to be all the beautiful real things that I was taught in the church. I wish for the boyant, excited "faith" of the first few years of my membership. On the other hand, I know things now that make it impossible to go back.

I can no longer be the goose-stepping, cookie-cut Molly Mormon that I see active mormons strieving to be. I can't ignore what I now see as repeditive wasted hours listening to the same lessons over and over again, or the testimony meeting filled with tears and "I know the church is true". I can't pretend that the retoric, distilled-down-to-basic church approved gospel doctrine is all I need to just acccept the church and be joyful. I wish I could be as accepting and naive as I was but I can't go back and I don't know which way to go.

My husband is a long suffering active mormon spouse. Two of my children are active, one an agnostic and one an atheist. The other four just hang around the edges.

I know that there is a difference between the Church of God and the way it is conducted by fallible leaders. But I never get that far because I am still wrestling with "Is there a god?". There. I actually wrote it down.

Why would God make it so hard to communicate with him? Answers to prayers are yes, no or nothing. If everything goes well, God gets the credit. If not, well the petitioner must have lacked in faith. If there is some great God Plan, why pray in the first place? If God knows what's best for us and we have trials and pain to help us grow, why pray?

If any prayer is concerned with someone else and agency is involved, why pray? (I am thinking of hours of fasting and praying on my knees for my adulterous ex-husband to be "touched by the spirit" and "have his heart softened".) So others agency can wipe out prayers. How can a bunch of names on the prayer roll be prayed for by groups of people that don't even know them and actually help.

I know I'm rambling. I'm a 56 year old grad student and feel like a 19 year old investigator. I WANT God to be there! I WANT the church to be true! But I can't get out of this rut, and "read your scriptures" and "fast and pray" isn't cutting it. My ward leaders think I am an apostate and give me the same pat answers. Maybe I am lost for good.

Welcome to the board, Denise. Your experiences could have bern copied right out my journal (that is if I kept a journal anymore). You are defiantly not alone. You have deconstructed your faith and I think that's healthy, though difficult. And I think everyone here will agree that you will never be back at that SAME boyant, excited faith -- that type of faith is just gone. But you will find a number of people here that have reconstructed their beliefs under a different paradigm and would say their new faith is even more fulfilling than its ever been. You will find others here that have not been able to reconstruct their beliefs in a way that works for them and they have left the church fully or still attend but left full belief in the church and even God (though those people are probably in the minority on this board). I will say that it's worth a shot to try and reconstruct it. Ask questions, try to see how people here reconcile those questions, see if that way of looking at it works for you... Try to work it out. And this is coming from someone who hasn't been able to reconstruct it all back yet.

Also, good to have a thick skin here as there are some that will make comments that might seem dismissive or might make you feel like your concerns are silly because you haven't read enough on the issue. But there are a lot of good people that will try to help you understand more instead of talking down to you for not knowing more.

[rpn]

If any prayer is concerned with someone else and agency is involved, why pray? (I am thinking of hours of fasting and praying on my knees for my adulterous ex-husband to be "touched by the spirit" and "have his heart softened".) So others agency can wipe out prayers. How can a bunch of names on the prayer roll be prayed for by groups of people that don't even know them and actually help.

I think this is the reason Mormon included Lehi's dream in the BofM: When it is foggy out, we keep our hand, placed there in better times, firmly on the iron rod, and keep going.

Have you read, "when your prayers seem unanswered"? It was helpful to me. Our Heavenly Parents and are Savior ARE there, doing whatever for us, that we will let Them do. Cheering us on. Maybe our ancestors are too. We just don't know how everything works.

Given that almost all of us admit we have been prompted to do things that we didn't understand until too late were promptings, ignored, did half-heartedly, or abandoned before finished, we surely get why the things we pray for may not happen even when He wants them to. We can't pray others to righteousness, but sometimes our prayers do help soften someone's heart --- though apparently not in your circumstances, that you could see, anyway.

It is a hard place you are. Even if you are having trouble believing in the aftermath of such wrenching experiences, it won't last forever. (If you've never read "In Quiet Desperation", the middle four chapters are the best I've read on how the atonement works IRL, practically: it too might help you.) But don't for a minute believe that if things are what you prayed for, you aren't worthy. Just simply isn't true. Yes, we get blessings by living the laws on which they are predicated. But we don't always know exactly which are the laws that result in the blessings. And since we know that some people who are visibly wicked get lots of good things happen to them, we also know that we don't understand fully how this works.

[TAO]

To be honest, when things get foggy, I just remember what it's like when it's not foggy, and just keep going. Sometimes it's tough, but it's worth it all.

[Robert F. Smith]

I find that I wish for a lot of things these days. I wish for there to be a god. I wish for him to be all the beautiful real things that I was taught in the church. I wish for the boyant, excited "faith" of the first few years of my membership. On the other hand, I know things now that make it impossible to go back.

I can no longer be the goose-stepping, cookie-cut Molly Mormon that I see active mormons strieving to be. I can't ignore what I now see as repeditive wasted hours listening to the same lessons over and over again, or the testimony meeting filled with tears and "I know the church is true". I can't pretend that the retoric, distilled-down-to-basic church approved gospel doctrine is all I need to just acccept the church and be joyful. I wish I could be as accepting and naive as I was but I can't go back and I don't know which way to go.

My husband is a long suffering active mormon spouse. Two of my children are active, one an agnostic and one an atheist. The other four just hang around the edges.

I know that there is a difference between the Church of God and the way it is conducted by fallible leaders. But I never get that far because I am still wrestling with "Is there a god?". There. I actually wrote it down.

Why would God make it so hard to communicate with him? Answers to prayers are yes, no or nothing. If everything goes well, God gets the credit. If not, well the petitioner must have lacked in faith. If there is some great God Plan, why pray in the first place? If God knows what's best for us and we have trials and pain to help us grow, why pray?

If any prayer is concerned with someone else and agency is involved, why pray? (I am thinking of hours of fasting and praying on my knees for my adulterous ex-husband to be "touched by the spirit" and "have his heart softened".) So others agency can wipe out prayers. How can a bunch of names on the prayer roll be prayed for by groups of people that don't even know them and actually help.

I know I'm rambling. I'm a 56 year old grad student and feel like a 19 year old investigator. I WANT God to be there! I WANT the church to be true! But I can't get out of this rut, and "read your scriptures" and "fast and pray" isn't cutting it. My ward leaders think I am an apostate and give me the same pat answers. Maybe I am lost for good.

Sounds to me as though you are in a blue funk at best, and maybe even clinical depression. Responsibility for all those children, and having dealt in such a "Christian" way with an adulterous husband, would be enough to drive anyone to despair or distraction. You might need group therapy. Perhaps you are becoming hard-edged through this sort of difficult experience, and probably for the better. You should have drop-kicked that adulterous guy out and let any doubters know that he well deserved it. Forgive him after he's gone.

And don't be afraid to be a weirdo. Some of the best Mormons and non-Mormons I know are weirdos. Let people talk, and just smile at their naivete. You need time to heal. So don't be too concerned with what the TBMs or Molly Mormons think or do. What's most important is you. Make sure that you don't shoulder all the burdens. Expect others to carry some of the load. And, if things don't get better in a reasonable time, seek professional help.

[Nemesis]

I find that I wish for a lot of things these days. I wish for there to be a god. I wish for him to be all the beautiful real things that I was taught in the church. I wish for the boyant, excited "faith" of the first few years of my membership. On the other hand, I know things now that make it impossible to go back.

I can no longer be the goose-stepping, cookie-cut Molly Mormon that I see active mormons strieving to be. I can't ignore what I now see as repeditive wasted hours listening to the same lessons over and over again, or the testimony meeting filled with tears and "I know the church is true". I can't pretend that the retoric, distilled-down-to-basic church approved gospel doctrine is all I need to just acccept the church and be joyful. I wish I could be as accepting and naive as I was but I can't go back and I don't know which way to go.

My husband is a long suffering active mormon spouse. Two of my children are active, one an agnostic and one an atheist. The other four just hang around the edges.

I know that there is a difference between the Church of God and the way it is conducted by fallible leaders. But I never get that far because I am still wrestling with "Is there a god?". There. I actually wrote it down.

Why would God make it so hard to communicate with him? Answers to prayers are yes, no or nothing. If everything goes well, God gets the credit. If not, well the petitioner must have lacked in faith. If there is some great God Plan, why pray in the first place? If God knows what's best for us and we have trials and pain to help us grow, why pray?

If any prayer is concerned with someone else and agency is involved, why pray? (I am thinking of hours of fasting and praying on my knees for my adulterous ex-husband to be "touched by the spirit" and "have his heart softened".) So others agency can wipe out prayers. How can a bunch of names on the prayer roll be prayed for by groups of people that don't even know them and actually help.

I know I'm rambling. I'm a 56 year old grad student and feel like a 19 year old investigator. I WANT God to be there! I WANT the church to be true! But I can't get out of this rut, and "read your scriptures" and "fast and pray" isn't cutting it. My ward leaders think I am an apostate and give me the same pat answers. Maybe I am lost for good.

We don't allow the bearing of testimony or non-testimonies on this board.

Nemesis

[canard78]

Sounds to me as though you are in a blue funk at best, and maybe even clinical depression. Responsibility for all those children, and having dealt in such a "Christian" way with an adulterous husband, would be enough to drive anyone to despair or distraction. You might need group therapy. Perhaps you are becoming hard-edged through this sort of difficult experience, and probably for the better. You should have drop-kicked that adulterous guy out and let any doubters know that he well deserved it. Forgive him after he's gone.

And don't be afraid to be a weirdo. Some of the best Mormons and non-Mormons I know are weirdos. Let people talk, and just smile at their naivete. You need time to heal. So don't be too concerned with what the TBMs or Molly Mormons think or do. What's most important is you. Make sure that you don't shoulder all the burdens. Expect others to carry some of the load. And, if things don't get better in a reasonable time, seek professional help.

While I'm sure your post was intended to be supportive (and I appreciate the balance you maintain in all of your posts), what you've said (in the context of this thread on faith crisis) could come across as saying there's nothing wrong with the church nor it's tools (e.g. prayer) and only things wrong with its people. The church is fine, she just has to fix herself.

Internet diagnoses, while often well intended, can often be unhelpful.

What she says is true. Prayer is an unreliable tool. Answers are unpredictable and sometimes unreliable.

Two farmers, Tom & Bill,, of equal righteousness, have neighbouring farms in a valley but with different crops. Seeing approaching clouds both kneel down to pray. "Please let it rain tonight," says Tom, "my crops are dry and will whither and die without rain." Next door Bill prays, "Please don't let it rain tonight, my crops are ripe and ready to harvest tomorrow. They will spoil if it rains."

Whose prayer should be answered and who answers it. If God intervenes then one is disappointed. If He does not and lets nature take his course (as He well appears to in many cases), then why pray at all.

The same scenario could be set for two applicants for the same job or the prayers of two mothers of sons in warring nations. Prayer is demonstrably inconsistent and unreliable.

[Denise]

Thank you to all who have been so caring and compassionate to guide, direct and comfort me. I was not aware that I was bearing a (non) testimony and this was not appropriate. Sorry. I really just wanted to find a place to start. Canard78's take on prayer was interesting and made me think of all the prayers that must go in one of Father's ears and out the other, destined to be left to "nature taking it's course". So, with that in mind...almost any prayer can be pointless. Thoughts on this?