For Those Who Are Struggling With Their Faith

[Glenn101]

I have wondered, then, was Muhammed actually called as a prophet to head up God's church among the Arabian people but for whatever reason did not do so successfully.

"did do" or "didn't do"

Did not do. Sometimes my fingers do not type what I am thinking.

Glenn

[Calm]

Did not do. Sometimes my fingers do not type what I am thinking.

Glenn

Same here...makes for some interesting posts at times.

[Glenn101]

Also, please keep in mind that I have no religious credentials at all.

I think that you have excellent religious credentials having traveled the road from "mainstream" Christianity to Islam and now to the Mormon system of Christianity. You do not seem to have walked those roads blindly, but were looking for something along the way. I appreciatethe time you take share your experiences and observations.

My religious credentials are almost exclusively LDS. I have attended very few non-LDS services, and those mostly when I was very young.

Glenn

[EllenMaksoud]

We don't really know the details of all of this regarding our progression but we do not believe that God is progressing in knowledge or power. We do not believe, for example, that God may yet learn some new truth.

This makes me feel really sad. The Isaiah passage is a hard stop for me. So how do we Mormons not violate that passage? I take it very seriously.

[CASteinman]

This makes me feel really sad.

I don't see why. It would be very scary if God were not Perfect already.

The Isaiah passage is a hard stop for me. So how do we Mormons not violate that passage? I take it very seriously.

This passage is seen as a dualistic prophecy with a temporal and spiritual meaning. The Temporal Meaning is that a King will be brought low. The Spiritual meaning is that this is about satan claiming to rise and sit on God's throne without authority. It is a reference to the Premortal War in Heaven. Here is a commentary on that section of Isaiah:

Isa. 14 contains two parallel texts that should be closely compared and contrasted. The first text speaks of the king of Babylon (14:4-11); the second deals with Lucifer (14:12-20). The rule of the king of Babylon reminds us of Lucifer's reign, and Lucifer's wicked desires remind us of those of the Babylonian king. Although the King and Lucifer are separate individuals, they share similar characteristics—they both are evil, they have both ruled with horror and destruction, both have weakened the nations with their evil ways, and both will eventually be sent down to hell. The fall of ancient Babylon's king recalls Lucifer's fall from heaven and anticipates a future time when Lucifer will be cast down, bound in hell, and become powerless. Isa. 14:4-11 speaks of an unnamed king of Babylon who served Lucifer and became like him; 14:12-20 refers to Lucifer, the king of Babylon—worldliness and sin.

Fall of Lucifer (14:12-23)

Lucifer's statement (14:13-14) about his goals demonstrates his extreme self- centeredness. He begins all five lines with the personal pronoun I, which shows that he is interested in his own goals and in glorifying himself. Lucifer had a fivefold plan: He wanted to enter heaven (without following God's laws), to be greater than other souls, to become part of the assembly of gods, to be exalted above other authorities and powers, and to become like God himself (14:13-14). In contrast, God's Saints are taught to lose themselves in the service of others (Matt. 16:25; Luke 9:24) not by looking after self but by seeking out the widows, the poor, the fatherless, and those with spiritual and temporal needs.

Isaiah's treatment of the archdevil and enemy of all humanity, Lucifer, sets forth terms and phrases that on one hand demonstrate Lucifer's attempt to imitate God's exalted state, and on the other present Lucifer's true degradation. Note the language connected with Lucifer's attempts at exaltation: ascend, heaven, exalt, above, stars, mount, and north (14:13); and ascend, above, heights, clouds, and Most High (14:14). Contrast that with the language that deals with Lucifer's actual lowliness: fallen, cut down, to the ground (14:12); brought down to hell, pit (14:15); and cast out of thy grave, go down, pit, and trodden under (14:19).

The section has two applications: Lucifer's fall from heaven during the premortal existence, and the time when Lucifer will be cast down to hell, after the Millennium. In the end, Babylon will be completely destroyed because it housed Lucifer and his followers (14:21-23).

Isa. 14:12-23

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! (14:12)

For thou hast said in thy heart:

I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will sit also upon the [mountain of the assembly of the gods] 13 in the [farthest] 14 north; (14:13)

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

I will be like the Most High. (14:14)

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the [depth] of the pit. (14:15)

They that see thee shall [stare] 15 at thee,

and [shall] consider thee, [and shall say:] 16

Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,

that did shake kingdoms? (14:16)

[And] made the world as a wilderness,

and destroyed the cities thereof, [and] 17 opened not the house of his prisoners? (14:17)

All the kings of the nations, [yea], 18 all of them, lie in glory, every one of them in his own house. (14:18)

But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and [the remnant] 19 of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. (14:19)

Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. (14:20)

Prepare slaughter for his children for the [iniquities] 20 of their fathers, that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. (14:21)

For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of Hosts,

and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord. (14:22)

I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water;

and I will sweep it with the [broom] 21 of destruction, saith the Lord of Hosts. (14:23)

Notes and Commentary

14:12 fallen from heaven/cut down to the ground. The first phrase implies that Lucifer was a star that lost its heavenly prominence by falling (Rev. 8:10; 9:1; 2 Ne. 2:17). The second phrase suggests that Lucifer was a mighty tree that was cut down by God the forester (10:33-34). Both the star and the tree commonly symbolize an individual, and both show how Lucifer was once mighty.

Lucifer. "And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning" (D&C 76:26).

The name Lucifer (Hebrew helel) means "shining one." 22 If the name is given different vowels (helal), it signifies the crescent of the moon, having a possible meaning that Lucifer had less light (symbolically) than the full moon, or Lucifer's light waned as does the light of the moon during its cycle. Further, Lucifer's light was far less than the light of Jesus Christ, whose light is the sun (Ps. 84:11; D&C 88:7-9). Isaiah may also be using a play on words, for Lucifer's name (helel) sounds like a word Isaiah uses in 13:6 where he commands those of Babylon to "Howl!" (Hebrew helili).

son of the morning. In Hebrew this means "son of the dawning light." D&C 76:26 recalls Isaiah's words: "And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning." The title son of the morning recalls the phrase morning stars (Job 38:7; D&C 128:23) and refers to eminent persons from the premortal existence. Christ, we recall, is the "bright and morning star" (Rev. 22:16) and the "morning star" (Rev. 2:28), the most eminent of all stars.

which did weaken the nations. Satan's work among the nations has brought dishonor, corruption, perversion, anarchy, immorality, exploitation, war, greed, and a myriad of other evils to every nation and people since the beginning: "And the children of men were numerous upon all the face of the land. And in those days Satan had great dominion among men, and raged in their hearts; and from thenceforth came wars and bloodshed; and a man's hand was against his own brother, in administering death" (Moses 6:15).

14:13 thou hast said in thy heart. Lucifer was (and is) a self-centered individual who secretly makes his own plans without seeking God's assistance.

I will ascend into heaven. Although Lucifer was an eminent figure in the premortal world (14:12), he did not enjoy the status of God, who lived in heaven. Lucifer also said to God, "Give me thine honor, which is my power," which resulted in "a third part of the hosts of heaven[turn[ing] away from [Christ] because of their agency" (D&C 29:36).

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. Lucifer sins and errs because of his desires. First, he believes that he is able to exalt himself. Yet, the scriptures inform us that no one can become exalted without Jesus Christ and his atonement; Jesus is the way to heaven (John 14:6). Second, Lucifer speaks concerning his throne. Yet no one can possess a heavenly throne without overcoming the world and receiving God's permission and blessing. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev. 3:21).

The stars of God refers to righteous people who belong to God (Job 38:7; D&C 128:23; Gen. 37:9). Satan wants to possess a throne that is higher than those of God's other children.

I will sit also upon the mountain of the assembly of the gods in the farthest north. The mountain of the assembly of the gods refers to the general assembly of the exalted where decisions have been made or are being made concerning the creation of the worlds and other eternal events. Lucifer desires to become part of the assembly, which would give him equal power and authority with the gods. The expression farthest north (Ps. 48:2) is an allusion to heaven, meaning a place far away from the habitations of humanity.

14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. Lucifer wanted to dwell in heaven, which is above the clouds, but no soul is able to ascend into heaven without following the proper prescriptions set forth by God, including being baptized, receiving the Holy Ghost, and attaining a godly character. Lucifer, therefore, will never enter heaven. The irony here is that Lucifer received the opposite of his desire— instead of ascending into heaven, he fell, or was "cut down to the ground" (14:12).

I will be like the Most High. The title Most High indicates a vertical hierarchy: God is higher than all; he is the Most High. Lucifer desired to be like the Most High, but he has been cast down to hell (14:9, 11, 12, 15).

14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the depth of the pit. Similar language is used in 14:19 (Ps. 28:1; 38:18; 143:7), which says that Lucifer will be cast "to the stones of the pit." The pit, which is another term for hell, expresses hell's conditions; it is dark, narrow, restrictive, and extremely uncomfortable for its inhabitants. Satan sought a high position in heaven (14:13-14); in response to Satan's machinations, God, whose justice is exact and faultless, sent him to the place farthest from heaven.

14:16 They that see thee shall stare at thee. Hell's inhabitants will be amazed that Lucifer, who shook kingdoms with his evil intent, has been brought down to the depths.

Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms? On seeing Lucifer in hell, the inquiry will come, Is this the man who caused such great disturbances upon the earth ("made the earth to tremble, . . . destroyed the cities"; 14:16-17), and now he is like "an abominable branch," like "a carcase" that others trample on (14:19)? By calling him man, Isaiah emphasizes here that Lucifer is by no means a god.

14:17 made the world as a wilderness. The Lord's creative effort made the world into a place that was called "good" (Gen. 1:10-31), but Lucifer's work had an opposite effect, for he made the world as a wilderness.

destroyed the cities. Lucifer is the destroyer; he destroys both cities and souls.

opened not the house of his prisoners. The New International Version reads that Lucifer "would not let his captives go home," which is a possible reference to the fact that Lucifer does not want his spiritual captives, or those bound by sin, to be released. Lucifer's goal, of course, stands in direct opposition to Jesus Christ's righteous and perfect desire, which is to release from sin all those who come unto him.

14:18 kings of the nations . . . lie in glory. The kings who rule over the telestial earth are buried in magnificent tombs decorated with marble. The once powerful tyrant (king of Babylon or Lucifer) is not treated with honor but is cast away with great disgrace.

14:19 cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch. The grave of Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon's king, has never been discovered, and Lucifer will never have a grave or a monument because he never received a body. The imagery of cast out of the grave stands opposite Jesus and his tomb (53:9), where Jesus arose from the dead and possessed "life in himself" (John 5:26) he used his own power to arise and exit the tomb. Lucifer, the abominable branch, can be contrasted to the useful "Branch" that will "grow out of" the roots of Jesse (11:1; D&C 113:1-2). John D. Watts, an Isaiah scholar, summarizes this section of Isaiah by writing of Nebuchadnezzar: "The body has not been buried, but abandoned like garbage (v. 19). He shares the fate of the dead among the poorest people: like the aborted fetus, like the clothes of one stabbed in a brawl, one killed in a fall, one trampled by a mob or on a battle-field, he is simply dumped in a pit and left to the birds and animals." 23

the remnant of those that are slain. Isaiah's imagery here likens Lucifer to the corpse of one who was killed by the sword, the sword wounds visible on the body. According to the law of Moses, any individual who touches the corpse (representative here of Lucifer) becomes ritually unclean and impure (Num. 19:11). Those who remain unclean, having forsaken Christ and his atoning sacrifice, cannot enter the celestial temple, or heaven (Alma 11:37).

that go down to the stones of the pit. See commentary on 14:15.

as a carcase trodden under feet. Lucifer is likened to a carcass that has not received a proper burial; instead it has been left on the ground to be trampled by man or animals. This analogy is more meaningful when considered in light of Joseph Smith's words: "The place where a man is buried is sacred; . . . one of the greatest curses the ancient prophets could put on any man, was that he should go without a burial." 24

14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial. See commentary on 14:19. Lucifer, because of his destructive and murderous acts, will not join the "kings of the nations" (14:18) who receive monumental tombs. Lucifer, of course, never received a body and therefore will never be buried.

thou hast destroyed thy land. Lucifer's code has always been war and destruction against both humanity and nature.

slain thy people. Lucifer uses men as instruments by tempting them to murder their fellow beings; Lucifer also leads people "away unto destruction" (Matt. 10:28; Alma 36:14). In a sense, he slays their souls so they will suffer spiritual death.

the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Lucifer, or the king of Babylon, and others like them will not be honored or acclaimed in the eternities.

14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquities of their fathers. The children of evildoers will perish because they heeded their wicked fathers' sayings.

that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. The righteous will possess the lands of promise (14:1-2) and build cities of Zion for the pure in heart. The wicked, however, will not be blessed to inherit such cities of Zion.

14:22 I will rise up against them. The Lord will destroy all things connected to Babylon.

Lord of Hosts. See commentary on 1:9.

cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew. The term cut off is the same as excommunication (Ex. 12:15, 19). Hence, those in Babylon who are cut off will be excommunicated from God and his saints, and they will not have any part of God's covenants. The reference to son and nephew here indicates that the line of inheritance will be cut off to make room for the new King Messiah to reign.

saith the Lord. Jehovah is the origin and authority of the revelation.

14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water. Babylon's destruction will be so complete that bittern (variously translated as owl, hedgehog, and waterfowl) will inhabit it, and "there will be no regular irrigation or cultivation of the soil, and the place will become a swamp." 25

I will sweep it with the broom of destruction. Just as one sweeps his or her house to eliminate dust and dirt, so will God sweep Babylon of her foul matter so that none remains.

[mfbukowski]

I have been told by NON authorities that the church was reluctant to take me on because I had been Muslim.

I am aware of what you are speaking, but I think that you misinterpret the reasoning behind the additional interviews etc involved in bringing Muslims into the church, and I can speak with some authority on their reasoning.

It has nothing to do with Islam or anything about Muslims personally but is actually a concern for the personal safety of the Muslims who join.

Muslims who become Christians are deemed heretics by other Muslim groups and are therefore targeted for reprisals. The church is concerned that those who join our church from Islam are absolutely certain that this is the course they want with full understanding of the risk it entails, and that is the reason for the additional interviews etc.

[Calm]

This makes me feel really sad.

I wouldn't be, there are some of us who interpret scripture somewhat differently when it comes to the "omnis" and God.

[mfbukowski]

I have already told you this before... That's baloney. The Church takes in people of all faiths and persuasions. The only people I have ever been known to be a problem for the Church were:

1. People who had been excommunicated and were lying about it to rejoin.

2. Murderers. Particularly Contract Murderers for Hire.

You are right- but there are additional interviews for former Muslims due to the risk of reprisals associated with their becoming Christians. Some Muslim groups are known to target such individuals. The church does not want to put their members at risk when we know that the gospel extends beyond the veil, and they have indicated their willingness to God to be baptized though perhaps prudence in some situations may actually mitigate against it!

It would perhaps be better for certain individuals from those Muslim groups who feel that way, who have already demonstrated their desire to be baptized, to wait until the other side of the veil. At least that is my understanding.

Edited April 24, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Ellen, I have been curious about the Prophet Muhammed, at least from my high school days when I was first introduced to to his story. I am sure that Muhammed had visions from some source. I just don't know if those visions were from the angels of Satan setting up a religion that had many great things but not the fulness of the gospel which would still lead people astray.

I have discountedthis idea because the Muslim religion reveres Jesus Christ, not as the Son of God ,but as a prophet. I can't see Satan giving even that much status to Jesus.

I have wondered, then, was Muhammed actually called as a prophet to head up God's church among the Arabian people but for whatever reason did do so successfully. That is not completely implausible, because there were at least two different bodies of believers on two different continents at the same time. There may have been more that we have not heard about.

It is possible that Muhammed could accept Jesus as a prophet, but just could not accept Him as the Son of God because Jesus was of one of the lineages that the Arabs felt were usurpers.

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I just know that I have found my answers as to which is God's church here on this earth in this day and age.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.

Glenn

I believe that M. was called to lead millions of pagan people to the message of monotheism and to open them up to the possibility that indeed Jesus was the Messiah. I see it as a kind of "preparatory gospel", perhaps not unlike the mission of John the Baptist or indeed Moses.

[CASteinman]

You are right- but there are additional interviews for former Muslims due to the risk of reprisals associated with their becoming Christians. Some Muslim groups are known to target such individuals. The church does not want to put their members at risk when we know that the gospel extends beyond the veil, and they have indicated their willingness to God to be baptized though perhaps prudence in some situations may actually mitigate against it!

It would perhaps be better for certain individuals from those Muslim groups who feel that way, who have already demonstrated their desire to be baptized, to wait until the other side of the veil. At least that is my understanding.

I think you are overstating the case. For example, there is nothing in the Handbook stating this requirement. I think that at most there is, in some parts of the world, a sensitivity to this and perhaps a more informal approach where this is discussed and reviewed.

[mfbukowski]

I think you are overstating the case. For example, there is nothing in the Handbook stating this requirement. I think that at most there is, in some parts of the world, a sensitivity to this and perhaps a more informal approach where this is discussed and reviewed.

Check Handbook 1. I am sure it used to be in there but I no longer have one.

[volgadon]

CFR is Call For References. A request to provide sources.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Shhh, you are supposed to say Canteloupe Fall Reinhard for the code.

[EllenMaksoud]

You are right- but there are additional interviews for former Muslims due to the risk of reprisals associated with their becoming Christians. Some Muslim groups are known to target such individuals. The church does not want to put their members at risk when we know that the gospel extends beyond the veil, and they have indicated their willingness to God to be baptized though perhaps prudence in some situations may actually mitigate against it!

It would perhaps be better for certain individuals from those Muslim groups who feel that way, who have already demonstrated their desire to be baptized, to wait until the other side of the veil. At least that is my understanding.

I know another woman who is Lebanese who is Mormon, but had been Muslim. I plan to go out to my old Masjid on Friday to see some of my friends. The community knows that I am Mormon. I am not afraid. I have lived honestly and devoutly before Heavenly Father. I will not go before he is ready. If I were in the Middle East, there might be cause for concern. My conscience is clear because I vow every day to treat everyone I meet with love and respect. If they choose to hurt me I can not stop them. There is a revert meeting on Saturday that I plan to attend.

[Avatar4321]

I know another woman who is Lebanese who is Mormon, but had been Muslim. I plan to go out to my old Masjid on Friday to see some of my friends. The community knows that I am Mormon. I am not afraid. I have lived honestly and devoutly before Heavenly Father. I will not go before he is ready. If I were in the Middle East, there might be cause for concern. My conscience is clear because I vow every day to treat everyone I meet with love and respect. If they choose to hurt me I can not stop them. There is a revert meeting on Saturday that I plan to attend.

That's the correct attitude and faith we all need. You are an inspiration sister.

[EllenMaksoud]

That's the correct attitude and faith we all need. You are an inspiration sister.

Mashallah. (All good comes from God)

[omni]

I think you are overstating the case. For example, there is nothing in the Handbook stating this requirement. I think that at most there is, in some parts of the world, a sensitivity to this and perhaps a more informal approach where this is discussed and reviewed.

In my European mission we had to get the first presidency's permission to baptize a Muslim because of the reasoning Mfbukowski explained. I know many other missions throughout the world had similar restrictions.

[mfbukowski]

I know another woman who is Lebanese who is Mormon, but had been Muslim. I plan to go out to my old Masjid on Friday to see some of my friends. The community knows that I am Mormon. I am not afraid. I have lived honestly and devoutly before Heavenly Father. I will not go before he is ready. If I were in the Middle East, there might be cause for concern. My conscience is clear because I vow every day to treat everyone I meet with love and respect. If they choose to hurt me I can not stop them. There is a revert meeting on Saturday that I plan to attend.

We are a worldwide church now, so certainly there are as many types of Muslims as there are Christians. Some are militant some are peaceful. We are all the same.

But in some parts of the world, prudence just dictates that we do not put members in jeopardy

[mfbukowski]

In my European mission we had to get the first presidency's permission to baptize a Muslim because of the reasoning Mfbukowski explained. I know many other missions throughout the world had similar restrictions.

Now that I think about it, I learned this, not from the manual, but from a former Mission President who served in a country which had many Muslims.

[CASteinman]

In my European mission we had to get the first presidency's permission to baptize a Muslim because of the reasoning Mfbukowski explained. I know many other missions throughout the world had similar restrictions.

Maybe its a mission by mission thing?

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't see why. It would be very scary if God were not Perfect already.

This passage is seen as a dualistic prophecy with a temporal and spiritual meaning. The Temporal Meaning is that a King will be brought low. The Spiritual meaning is that this is about satan claiming to rise and sit on God's throne without authority. It is a reference to the Premortal War in Heaven. Here is a commentary on that section of Isaiah:

Wow, you really gave me a lot of homework this time! Thank you. I am studying it but it is a lot of material to read and pray about. Just wanted you to know that I just did not go off and sulk.

[CASteinman]

Wow, you really gave me a lot of homework this time! Thank you. I am studying it but it is a lot of material to read and pray about. Just wanted you to know that I just did not go off and sulk.

Its no problem! I have confidence in you.

[mfbukowski]

We don't really know the details of all of this regarding our progression but we do not believe that God is progressing in knowledge or power. We do not believe, for example, that God may yet learn some new truth.

Just for the record, and yes I know McConkie's comments on this, not all of us agree on this point.

For example, surely as God progresses, new creations and new situations will come into existence simply as a result of his creation. Perhaps it may be something like "planet X exists".

At this moment, planet X does not exist, therefore God cannot possibly "know" that it exists because it doesn't!

After it is created and He "knows" it is created, he will have "new knowledge". Perhaps it could be said that he knows it WILL be created, but he cannot now know that it does now exist because it doesn't.

I am only citing this as an example of how God knows all that he can know, but not yet knows things which will come to pass- even though he knows they will come to pass.

As new situations come to pass, new things exist, there will be new linguistic expressions of those new states of affairs and there for new "facts" to "know"

Yes, truth itself changes. It must change as a result of progression, or progression is an illusion.

[mfbukowski]

I wouldn't be, there are some of us who interpret scripture somewhat differently when it comes to the "omnis" and God.

Absolutely!

Ellen-

You DO get to receive your own inspirations on these points and God will reveal to your understanding whatever you need. Follow your own inspiration! These are not matters central to your salvation- so ask God and he will tell you what is right.

[CASteinman]

Just for the record, and yes I know McConkie's comments on this, not all of us agree on this point.

There are Mormons who do not agree that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or that there even is a God. Agreement is not exactly the issue.

For example, surely as God progresses, new creations and new situations will come into existence simply as a result of his creation. Perhaps it may be something like "planet X exists".

Pretty much irrelevant.

Yes, truth itself changes. It must change as a result of progression, or progression is an illusion.

Sophistry by which the Scriptures are undermined.

[mfbukowski]

There are Mormons who do not agree that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or that there even is a God. Agreement is not exactly the issue.

Pretty much irrelevant.

Sophistry by which the Scriptures are undermined.

OK well you have stated your opinion and I have stated mine.

I see no conflict with any of my positions and the scriptures. There is not much point in discussing this- You can attempt to destroy Ellen's understanding but you have no right to do so.