Speculating About Poor Fanny

[Jude2]

I’ve had a little theory about Fanny Alger. I got curious after reading from this website these comment;

Ann Eliza Webb recalls, “Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem”.

Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”. Ann Eliza again recalls: “...it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph’s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach...Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house...my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives...”

http://wivesofjoseph...-FannyAlger.htm

I got very curious about Ann Webb and discovered she wasn’t even born until after Joseph was dead so I found it hard to believe she was able to ‘recall’ anything. Since it has been proven through dna testing that Fanny’s baby was not Joseph’s it seems that both Chauncey and Ann Webb were gossip mongers of the worst kind.

Having said that I’m going to do some speculative gossiping 180 years after the fact after all the baby had to belong to someone.

According to this website Fanny was sealed to Joseph sometime in 1833.

It also just happens that Philastus Hurlbut was excommunicated in June of 1833 for “immoral conduct” not once but twice. Can I speculate here and say the baby was his? Just maybe?

Fanny was 16 and he was 24, today he’d go to jail for rape.

Could it be that Joseph and Emma were taking care of this young traumatized girl. Having her seal to himself was away of helping her understand she had done no wrong/ or was forgiven for a mistake?

The link given is not an acceptable source. It is a series of incompletely referenced quotes. If the thread is to only to guess who had sex with who it will be closed.

Oh! I always thought it was a little fishy and no it is not about who had sex with who but about rumors and how evil they are.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Jude2

[cinepro]

Could it be that Joseph and Emma were taking care of this young traumatized girl. Having her seal to himself was away of helping her understand she had done no wrong/ or was forgiven for a mistake?

Interesting theory. So when, exactly, were the keys and power for sealings restored?

[Questing Beast]

Impossible to say. I am leery of DNA testing anyway. Because I don't know enough about it, no doubt. But there is increasing criticism of the new sleuthing that people assert to be doing with it, not that they do it, but that much of what is asserted "proof" is more complex than the public realizes....

[Nevo]

Since it has been proven through dna testing that Fanny’s baby was not Joseph’s...

Actually, that hasn't been proven.

Ugo Perego included "Orrison Smith" as an alleged son of Joseph Smith in his DNA study because, according to Perego, "several years ago, a man surfaced who claimed to be a descendant of an Orrison Smith, son of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger." The man had no supporting evidence for his claim, however, and Perego learned nothing more about Orrison Smith other than that he was born "somewhere in Ohio" in approximately 1834. According to census records, the only "Orrison Smith" born about 1834 in Ohio was the son of John and Priscilla Smith (see, e.g., 1850 census, roll M432_658, page 13A, image 288).

Fanny Alger didn't become pregnant until 1836 and that baby was almost certainly fathered by Joseph Smith (see Don Bradley's article in The Persistence of Polygamy).

[rongo]

If you haven't read Nibley's treatment of Ann Eliza Webb Dee Young Denning, this might help you put her into perspective:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=77&chapid=971

[Alan]

My view of the Fanny Alger situation is quite straightforward.

I don't believe Joseph was married to her, and the sealing keys (sealing is not necessarily the same thing as marriage) had not yet been restored.

If there was an affair between Joseph and Fanny then it was wrong. Why do we always have to put Joseph on a pedastel and assume he did no wrong? He was human just like us.

However, my personal view is that there was no relationship between them. Her child has been shown not to be Joseph's, and when Oliver Cowdrey accused the prophet he was an enemy to Joseph and the church. Interestingly, he stuck to his testimony of the Book of Mormon though.

[ALarson]

The biggest question for me is, how was Joseph Smith married or sealed to Fanny prior to him receiving the sealing keys?

I think the church recognizes her as his first plural wife now, don't they?

[Alan]

The biggest question for me is, how was Joseph Smith married or sealed to Fanny prior to him receiving the sealing keys?

For me the answer is simple.......... he wasn't.

[ALarson]

For me the answer is simple.......... he wasn't.

He wasn't sealed to her or wasn't married to her (or both)?

[ALarson]

This is written on the FAIR website:

There is some historical evidence that Joseph Smith knew as early as 1831 that plural marriage would be restored, so it is perfectly legitimate to argue that Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger was such a case. Mosiah Hancock (a Mormon) reported a wedding ceremony; and apostate Mormons Ann Eliza Webb Young and her father Chauncery both referred to Fanny's relationship as a "sealing." Ann Eliza also reported that Fanny's family was very proud of Fanny's relationship with Joseph, which makes little sense if it was simply a tawdry affair. Those closest to them saw the marriage as exactly that—a marriage.

[Alan]

He wasn't sealed to her or wasn't married to her (or both)?

Both.

[Alan]

I perhaps ought to make it clear here that I am one of only a handful of Saints who honestly believe Joseph was not a polygamist.

I believe he was an honest man, and he clearly and publicly stated just weeks before his death that he was not a polygamist and had only one wife.

To me the issue is really quite simple. Either Joseph can be trusted or he cannot.

I believe he can be.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Interesting theory. So when, exactly, were the keys and power for sealings restored?

April 3, 1836...was a great time had by all, Revelations abound.

[Walden]

My view of the Fanny Alger situation is quite straightforward.

I don't believe Joseph was married to her, and the sealing keys (sealing is not necessarily the same thing as marriage) had not yet been restored.

If there was an affair between Joseph and Fanny then it was wrong. Why do we always have to put Joseph on a pedastel and assume he did no wrong? He was human just like us.

However, my personal view is that there was no relationship between them. Her child has been shown not to be Joseph's, and when Oliver Cowdrey accused the prophet he was an enemy to Joseph and the church. Interestingly, he stuck to his testimony of the Book of Mormon though.

So you'll believe Oliver Cowdery's account/testimony of the Book of Mormon, but not his account of Joseph's affair with Fanny Alger?

How would one go about rationalizing the two, if one believes that Oliver was truthful sometimes and dishonest at other times?

[Glenn101]

So you'll believe Oliver Cowdery's account/testimony of the Book of Mormon, but not his account of Joseph's affair with Fanny Alger?

How would one go about rationalizing the two, if one believes that Oliver was truthful sometimes and dishonest at other times?

The Book of Mormon account is from direct, first-hand knowledge. The second is of unknown provenance.

Glenn

[rodheadlee]

Why do you call her Poor Fanny?

[Jude2]

Actually, that hasn't been proven.

Ugo Perego included "Orrison Smith" as an alleged son of Joseph Smith in his DNA study because, according to Perego, "several years ago, a man surfaced who claimed to be a descendant of an Orrison Smith, son of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger." The man had no supporting evidence for his claim, however, and Perego learned nothing more about Orrison Smith other than that he was born "somewhere in Ohio" in approximately 1834. According to census records, the only "Orrison Smith" born about 1834 in Ohio was the son of John and Priscilla Smith (see, e.g., 1850 census, roll M432_658, page 13A, image 288).

Fanny Alger didn't become pregnant until 1836 and that baby was almost certainly fathered by Joseph Smith (see Don Bradley's article in The Persistence of Polygamy).

I knew as soon as I posted this someone would come up with another date. Well I’m not going to run out and buy the book, so what does it actually say?

I found this;

First plural wife: Don Bradley asserts that Fanny Alger should be recognized as such and not just as an extra-marital affair. A pair of new discoveries indicate that Oliver Cowdery wrote that the episode as a “dirty nasty filthy scrape” (changed by a copyist to “affair”) and that the marriage’s end should be dated to 1836 (rather than a prior consensus of 1835), respectively.

http://www.millennia...ce-of-polygamy/

I believe there were forces even that early within the Church trying to cause the downfall of Joseph. And now 180 years later their rumor campaign continues. I had guessed that Oliver had heard the rumors and let them fester in his heart for a while leading up to his excommunication. Joseph supposedly at one point confronted Oliver and asked him if he had ever heard him confess he was guilty of adultery and Oliver said no.

Joseph said this at Oliver’s excommunication: Oliver had been a bosom friend and he had trusted him with "many things." He then explained "the girl buisness" …

It seems to me something did happen but he didn’t want in the record.

Found this at

http://mormonmatters...feminist-recap/

“Don Bradley gave a presentation titled “Dating Fanny Alger”, a bit of a play on words. I remember he gave a funny line to the effect of “By all accounts, she was hot!” Anyway, Bradley tried to pin down when the “affair” happened. Apparently, Emma discovered Joseph and Fanny late at night in the barn. According to Bradley, Alger appeared pregnant. Emma threw a fit, and threw Alger out of the house. (Apparently Alger had been working as a sort of nanny.)”

See he is assuming the stories told by the Webbs to be true and I don’t. Ann Webb made her living smearing Joseph Smith.

The article continues; “The discovery of the relationship by Emma probably dates to the summer or fall of 1835. Bradley recounted several people who have tried to pin down the date, and noted problems with each date. Some authors have discussed an “embarrassing” incident of polygamy in August 1835. Joseph left for Pontiac, Michigan possibly to avoid embarrassment for his role. On Oct 14, 1835, Joseph describes “dealing with household issues”, possibly a reference to evict Fanny. However, Mark Ashurst-Mcgee suggests this incident refers not to Fanny, but a problem with employees at the printing office.”

That’s a lot of probably & possibly; a whole lot worse than what I’m doing and no way to write history.

The article continues; “Fanny left Kirtland in August or Sept 1836, so the incident must have occurred prior to that. Bradley notes that dissenters condemned Joseph on July 24, and Joseph left for Salem, Massachusetts for a treasure trip the next day on July 25. Bradley believes Joseph sent Fanny to Missouri at the same time. William McLellin gave his famous quote about having “no confidence” in church leadership around this time as well. Fanny soon married non-member Solomon Custer after just a 6 week courtship. Bradley believes it may have been a cover of legitimacy if Fanny was indeed pregnant.”

So a girl shows up pregnant and you marry her to cover up her pregnancy? Mmmm

And note the “…if Fanny was indeed pregnant”

Much of what I have read on the subject is second hand and would never make it into any court.

[Alan]

So you'll believe Oliver Cowdery's account/testimony of the Book of Mormon, but not his account of Joseph's affair with Fanny Alger?

How would one go about rationalizing the two, if one believes that Oliver was truthful sometimes and dishonest at other times?

Oliver Cowdrey was under a sacred covenant with God, not Joseph, to testify of the truth of the Book of Mormon. He stated that he was required by God to do this as did the other witnesses.

He was under no obligation to support Joseph at all times. He actualy believed Joseph was a fallen prophet for a time, and David Whitmer maintained that line all of his life.

Therefore, I feel I can justify drawing a distinction between Oliver's maintenance of his BoM testimony, and his personal disaffection with Joseph and the attitudes fostered thereby.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Alan

[DBMormon]

I perhaps ought to make it clear here that I am one of only a handful of Saints who honestly believe Joseph was not a polygamist.

I believe he was an honest man, and he clearly and publicly stated just weeks before his death that he was not a polygamist and had only one wife.

To me the issue is really quite simple. Either Joseph can be trusted or he cannot.

I believe he can be.

This seems set up on the false assumption that lying always has to be wrong. While truth is preferred to lying in most cases, it is wrong to assume Lying is always wrong just as in Nephi and Laban's case that murder is always wrong.

One can lie to protect the physical and spiritual life of another or many others and it be ok.

Consider this - you lie about your children not being home while they are hiding under your bed as an intruder holds a gun to your head and ask where your children are.

Was that sin? does that make you untrustworthy? nope. In fact most would say that makes you courageous.

Could Joseph's lying about polygamy be understood in the context of the physical lives he was protecting from persecution?

[Alan]

Could Joseph's lying about polygamy be understood in the context of the physical lives he was protecting from persecution?

Personally, I don't believe so.

Joseph was not reticent in declaring doctrines the world would despise, and was persecuted all his life for doing so, as were his followers, including his family.

For me, I found when I looked at the evidence regarding polygamy it was not as clear cut as I had been brought up to believe. Richard Price stirred my curiosity and I took it from there. I could be wrong in my views but i don't believe I am. I knows others will disagree and that's ok.