Do We Insult God With Water Baptism When We Believe It Saves Us?

[Tacenda]

Does Temple Work rise and fall on this one point alone, the need to be baptised and especially the need to be baptised with the LDS "Priesthood Keys", in order to be with God? Or was it something that was needed only until the Saviour came to the earth and then died for us? Is it more a showing of our faith and not a requirement? I'm sure many of you will give many, many scriptures or quotes to refute the info below, or can you?

I cut and pasted from this website a portion of it and can be found in it's entirety here........

http://www.gracepoin...s/gpbaptism.php

"This Baptism represents our old man, our sin nature, the one we inherited from Adam being crucified and buried with Christ and then we have been raised as a new creation in Christ, to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3,4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. The water baptisms practiced in the past were only a representation of the real thing. They were for the purpose of making known Christ to prepare Israel for the Messiah. This cleansing ceremony was performed in order to cleanse Israel of its sins. It is only Christ’s blood that can save us. All the ceremonies performed in the past were only shadows of the saving power of Christ’s blood. Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We are not to rely on our works but Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. It is our spiritual baptism into Christ’s death, burial, & resurrection on the cross that gives us life. Our righteousness comes by Christ’s work on the cross, not ours. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This was made know to the apostle Paul directly by God, not by man. God revealed His secret purpose of Christ’s death on the cross to Paul. Once Paul began proclaiming this message and the full knowledge of the truth of the ONE baptism of Ephesians 4:5 became known, water baptism ceased. For we no longer needed a representation because we NOW posses the real thing; Christ. We are not to put our faith in dead works but in the risen glorified Christ. For today there is only ONE baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit which unites the believer with Christ and places us in the body of Christ. This one baptism identifies us with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. We as believers all share the same inheritance, the same spiritual blessing, the same hope, etc. We have all these things because we are “in Christ”.

To get a feeling for some of the blessings we have received because of this baptism by the Holy Spirit, count how many times just in the first chapter of Ephesians where you find the term “in Christ”. Because of this ONE baptism we are now members of the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Another example of shadows being replaced by the reality of Christ’ sacrifice can be seen with circumcision. Circumcision was also a required mandate of the law but as with water baptism we no longer perform this ceremony. Circumcision means to cut away. This ceremony was performed at the cross of Calvary. God made a circumcision at the cross; when Christ died, our sins were cut away from us. Colossians 2:11-12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Again this demonstrates the completeness we have in Christ. It is this spiritual baptism that makes us complete in Christ. All God requires of us is faith in Christ. That means we do not need to do one more single thing to receive salvation, nor could we.

There is only one baptism and that is strongly emphasized in Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Note all the one’s. One is the number of the body of Christ. There is only one body. There are seven one’s here and in the scriptures the number seven represents perfection. In these verses you can see our completeness in Christ. There can be no two’s here. That means there can not be both a physical and Spiritual baptism-There can only be one and these verses clearly teach this is a Spiritual baptism, leaving no room for water baptism. We have the real thing, we do not need representations; we are complete.

Paul was teaching the Word of God, the mystery, the gospel of grace. This was God’s good news of salvation. Salvation was totally by the grace of God, no longer by the tenants of the law. The old instructions were being replaced by new instructions. The climax of this new truth was to be revealed in the book of Ephesians. Not only baptism, but also circumcision, animal sacrifices, speaking in tongues, and other sign gifts were phased out as the new glorious truth of what Christ’s death accomplished for the believer was being revealed through the apostle Paul.

An analogy that might help make this concept clearer is: The company you work for is preparing an important proposal for their biggest client. The future of the company depends on this proposal. You have been selected to represent your company and give the presentation. Before going to the meeting you go to the file to get the proposal. In the file you find two different proposals; one prepared last week and one prepared a year ago. Which proposal do you bring to present at this important meeting? You bring the most recent one of course because it reflects the most current specifications regarding your clients business. If you brought the old proposal you would lose the business, because you did not offer them a solution for their current needs.

We need to rightly divide God’s Word and apply the proposal He has prepared for us. 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. God’s word is progressive and throughout history He has changed how He deals with man. Now through Paul God has revealed His purpose previously kept hidden (the mystery). God has now made known the highest truths. Before we only had symbols or types but now we have the real thing. Now that we have been given and know the mystery of God, and received the full knowledge of the meaning of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, God has given us new marching orders that reflect that truth. These marching orders supercede the previous orders issued by God. If we fail to follow these new orders but continue to preach water baptism, circumcision, and the other tenants of the law for salvation, we are not following God’s instructions for us today.

By ignoring the truth of the cross that was revealed to us in the Scriptures through the apostle Paul, we make the sacrifice of His Son to be of no worth. This is a tragedy that will leave you spiritually bankrupt. Salvation can only be on the merits of Christ’s saving work on the cross of Calvary. If we approach God with water baptism or any other work, we insult God."

1Thesolonians 5:9-11

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Romans 6:3,4

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:11-12

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

Maybe the bible scriptures don't really matter when we have a living Prophet and Apostles to restore and correct too. Or is the bolded portion of the quote going to get one in trouble? Confusion is my middle name.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

I wonder if Jesus was insulting God and himself by getting baptized. Baptism like a marriage in the Temple puts you on the path and we can and should draw closer to God through Christ and away from the world through these ordinances

[Tacenda]

I wonder if Jesus was insulting God and himself by getting baptized. Baptism like a marriage in the Temple puts you on the path and we can and should draw closer to God through Christ and away from the world through these ordinances

Short but sweet answer Duncan. Still figuring it all out and cannot believe it's taking so long, thanks for the quick reply.

[Damien the Leper]

The Great Commission given at the end of Matthew's Gospel is one area that Evangelicals, IMO, haven't given an good answer for.

[bluebell]

Do we insult God with our faith when we believe it saves us?

Our faith in Christ doesn't add anything to the power or the Atonement, but regardless it is necessary for salvation because God has declared that it is. Baptism is the same way. We do it because God has commanded that it is necessary to be saved. It doesn't have the power to save us anymore than our faith, or our repentance, has the power to save us, but we obey anyway because we trust God has His reasons.

Why is it that some people can believe that they can't be saved without faith in Christ but in the same breath declared that a belief that baptism is necessary means that the person is discounting the need for the Atonement or is trying to save themselves? What's the difference? Does Christ need your faith to save you? Of course not, but He still won't do it without it, will He. That's because His reasons for commanding it have nothing to do with it's ability to add to His Atonement.

So it is with baptism.

[Damien the Leper]

God is who and what saves us. Nothing we do saves us and faith isn't a verb, IOW, it isn't something we do.

[volgadon]

faith isn't a verb

Not in English.

[bluebell]

God is who and what saves us. Nothing we do saves us and faith isn't a verb, IOW, it isn't something we do.

Of course it is something we do. Can a person read about Christ's commandments, feel the Spirit testify of their truth, and yet do nothing different than he did the day before, and claim to have faith in Christ?

[Darren10]

The Book of Mormon makes it clear that baptism was around long before Jesus Christ's mortal ministry and the restoration of the Gospel makes it clear that baptism is absolutely necessary for exaltation. Even those who have died without it need it. Baptism is a physical way to show we are willing to take upon ourselves covenants from the lord and ot keep them. These covenants are in the temple of God. We renew these covenants weekly through taking the sacrament. Keeping these covenants opens up access for God's grace of forgivensss of our sins so that we may be both saved and exalted before the Most High God. The redemption of the body and spirit (body + spirit = soul) is given to all regardless what they do or do not do. This part of ourredemption was done by Christ's resurrection. Baptism is the cleansing of our soul of sin. This is done through Christ in Gethsemane and on the cross and through the power of the Holy spirit.

We are to enter into covenant with the Lord and keep our covenants in order to expect for the grace of Gosd to save and exalt us.

[Mark Beesley]

Ordinances are symbolic of spiritual events, and by spiritual I mean events that transcend mortality. We likely do not understand the necessity of the symbolism to effectuate the actual event. My belief is that baptism, while symbolic of death and resurrection, is required by some law we do not yet comprehend before an actual resurrection can be accomplished.

If anything, I think we probably insult God by trying to second guess Him rather than just taking Him at His Word.

[volgadon]

one Lord, one faith, one baptism

Does this mean that only one person should have faith, or that faith was only required once?

[Damien the Leper]

Not in English.

Please explain.

[Tacenda]

Does this mean that only one person should have faith, or that faith was only required once?

Is this a trick question?

[volgadon]

Please explain.

English doesn't have a verb "to faith" like Hebrew and other languages do.

[volgadon]

Is this a trick question?

It is applying the article's logic to that scripture. If there is only ONE baptism, why isn't there only ONE instance of faith?

[Damien the Leper]

Of course it is something we do. Can a person read about Christ's commandments, feel the Spirit testify of their truth, and yet do nothing different than he did the day before, and claim to have faith in Christ?

You're misunderstanding me. Faith is an intangible spiritual gift. I have faith. However, faith takes on a life of its own by being a conduit for many things pertaining to God. I don't DO faith and yet faith DOES. Faith is the motivation to do good. Exercising faith in action or in spiritual forms is not employing faith as a verb.

[Tacenda]

It is applying the article's logic to that scripture. If there is only ONE baptism, why isn't there only ONE instance of faith?

I believe they are talking about baptism by fire aren't they or am I wrong? And there is one instance of faith then.

[Damien the Leper]

English doesn't have a verb "to faith" like Hebrew and other languages do.

Ugh...I hate you. Now I have one more thing to add to my list. Damn you...

[cdowis]

We are not to rely on our works but Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. It is our spiritual baptism into Christ’s death, burial, & resurrection on the cross that gives us life. Our righteousness comes by Christ’s work on the cross, not ours.

The historic Christian churches have replaced the apostles, prophets and priesthood authority with theologians, Bible scholars, and the "priesthood of the believers".

Edited February 14, 2013 by cdowis

[Nemesis]

This goes way beyond fair use. It's a straight cut and paste and will be removed soon. Please restart the discussion properly if you decide to continue with a discussion.

Nemesis