Apostolic Authority

[Alan]

This is an issue that has puzzled me for years. If my understanding is correct (and I freely admit I could be hopelessly wrong here) the original 12 apostles of the restoration were ordained by the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. If that is so, from where did they get the authority to do this?

[CV75]

This is an issue that has puzzled me for years. If my understanding is correct (and I freely admit I could be hopelessly wrong here) the original 12 apostles of the restoration were ordained by the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. If that is so, from where did they get the authority to do this?

It seems it was a one-time dispensation from Joseph Smith to them (since they were not ordained to this office themselves), by commandment of the Lord (D&C 18:37).

[Alan]

Thank you for your reply.

I don't understand how anyone can give authority they themselves do not have.

I just cannot get my head around it.

Can anyone help explain this further?

[CV75]

Thank you for your reply.

I don't understand how anyone can give authority they themselves do not have.

I just cannot get my head around it.

Can anyone help explain this further?

They had the authority, or were authorized, by virtue of D&C 18:37. They did not have the office of apostle, but they had the authority to ordain twelve to that office. I understand that at least Oliver Cowdery was an "apostle" in the sense that Paul was (and presumably Joseph Smith), and this allowed certain privileges that may well have been extended to the other two witnesses, or allowed Oliver or Joseph to temporarily "deputize" them to assist him.

[CV75]

P.S.

Where “apostle” means “one sent forth [in this case representing God],” one can be an apostle without having the office. The Three witnesses were commissioned to perform a certain task as “apostles” to find the Twelve and ordain them to the office of Apostle. I’m skipping over a few years of fine-tuning in how the Quorum of Twelve evolved (D&C 107 was several years after D&C 18), but that’s the essence of it.

[DBMormon]

where am I off? Oliver Cowdery was ordained to the melchizedek priesthood by Peter James and John (John being a body and spirit). Joseph and Oliver then ordained each other Elders with that Authority they were given. Then the Three witnesses ordained the 12 under the Melchisadek PH. Did they have keys to Give? I don't know. But how do we know Oliver Cowdery didn't have keys. Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.... right? Is it possible that when JS and OC were conferrred the PH they were given all PH keys needed to ordain other leaders and simply didn't recall every word pronounced upon their heads or the significance of them?

Edited January 18, 2013 by DBMormon

[mathonihah]

This is an issue that has puzzled me for years. If my understanding is correct (and I freely admit I could be hopelessly wrong here) the original 12 apostles of the restoration were ordained by the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. If that is so, from where did they get the authority to do this?

Where does it say that they "ordained" them? D&C 18 is a commission to "find" them, not ordain them. And it was given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. Oliver Cowdery would be the principle player here, since at that time he ranked in authority in the Church next to Joseph Smith. He would have been given the necessary discernment to do the "finding". But the commission was to fine them, not ordain them (yet).

[CV75]

where am I off? Oliver Cowdery was ordained to the melchizedek priesthood by Peter James and John (John being a body and spirit). Joseph and Oliver then ordained each other Elders with that Authority they were given. Then the Three witnesses ordained the 12 under the Melchisadek PH. Did they have keys to Give? I don't know. But how do we know Oliver Cowdery didn't have keys. Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack.... right? Is it possible that when JS and OC were conferrred the PH they were given all PH keys needed to ordain other leaders and simply didn't recall every word pronounced upon their heads or the significance of them?

It is possible, but I don't think it was absolutely necessary for them to have keys if God wanted them to do it anyway (unless one wants to call that in itself a key). They certainly all had the Melchizedek Priesthood, and they could all be called "apostles" irrespective of any priesthood office. I think just being commissioned as they were in D&C 18 is enough, but yes, we may just lack the detailed documentation of what actually transpired.

[CV75]

Where does it say that they "ordained" them? D&C 18 is a commission to "find" them, not ordain them. And it was given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. Oliver Cowdery would be the principle player here, since at that time he ranked in authority in the Church next to Joseph Smith. He would have been given the necessary discernment to do the "finding". But the commission was to fine them, not ordain them (yet).

The minutes seem to use the word "bless" in place of "ordained"--

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#3

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#4

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#5

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#6

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#7

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/minutes-14%E2%80%9315-february-1835#8

[T-Shirt]

According to Section 27, Joseph and Oliver were ordained Apostles by Peter James and John and given the associated keys. David Whitmer was referred to as an Apostle in Section 18.

[DBMormon]

According to Section 27, Joseph and Oliver were ordained Apostles by Peter James and John and given the associated keys. David Whitmer was referred to as an Apostle in Section 18.

There's your answer!!!! right?

[T-Shirt]

According to Heber C. Kimball, Martin Harris was also an Apostle:

"Peter comes along wiih James and John and ordains Joseph to be an apostle and then Joseph ordains Oliver and David Whitmer and Martin Harris and then they were ordered to select twelve more and ordain them."

(Journal of Discourses 6:29)

Edited January 18, 2013 by T-Shirt

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Thank you for your reply.

I don't understand how anyone can give authority they themselves do not have.

I just cannot get my head around it.

Can anyone help explain this further?

They were appointed by JS who received it from Christ. An Apostle is a personal witness of Christ, they don't have to be ordained by Christ himself...the first 12 were because Christ was the Priesthood at the time, after his death he no longer did so in person. Edited January 18, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[mathonihah]

The minutes seem to use the word "bless" in place of "ordained"--

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#3

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#4

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#5

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#6

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#7

http://josephsmithpa...february-1835#8

Thank you for the references. These minutes, however, relate to events occurring in February 1835, which is five years after D&C 18 was received. By this time Joseph and Oliver had already received the Melchizedek Priesthood, with Oliver being an Apostle, and the "second in command" to Joseph Smith. He was the "Second Elder" to the Church, with Joseph being the "First". He had the full priesthood authority to ordain them Apostles. Not sure what role the other two witnesses played; but presumably they were also Melchizedek Priesthood holders, though not Apostles; and they were acting as assistants to Oliver Cowdery. I suppose the Lord did it that way in order to honor them for the privilege of being witnesses to the Book of Mormon. But in either case, the answer to the OP is that they were ordained by someone who did have the authority to ordain them, not someone who didn't.

[CV75]

Thank you for the references. These minutes, however, relate to events occurring in February 1835, which is five years after D&C 18 was received. By this time Joseph and Oliver had already received the Melchizedek Priesthood, with Oliver being an Apostle, and the "second in command" to Joseph Smith. He was the "Second Elder" to the Church, with Joseph being the "First". He had the full priesthood authority to ordain them Apostles. Not sure what role the other two witnesses played; but presumably they were also Melchizedek Priesthood holders, though not Apostles; and they were acting as assistants to Oliver Cowdery. I suppose the Lord did it that way in order to honor them for the privilege of being witnesses to the Book of Mormon. But in either case, the answer to the OP is that they were ordained by someone who did have the authority to ordain them, not someone who didn't.

The "blessing" / "ordination" was to the traveling twelve, which eventually evolved into the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It seems that the evoluiotn of the term "apostle" and the office of "Apostle" evolved along with this progression. Or at least changed according to the Lord's changing requirements for the growing Church to use apostles like Paul to use Apostles as more formal "special witnesses."

[David T]

A modern day conceptual parallel perhaps:

Only the President of the Church has the scriptural keys to set apart a Sealer. However, for practical reasons, he will generally delegate a proxy General Authority to stand in for him along with a signed notice of the personal authorization to perform the physical setting apart.

Edited January 18, 2013 by David T

[The Nehor]

Though mot done often one can be an Apostle without being in the Twelve. The Three Witnesses, one of Brigham's sons, Joseph before the First Presidency or Twelve were organized, and probably others.

[TruthSeeker24]

If you were a fundamentalist Mormon, this whole dilemma would be pretty easy to wrap your head around lol

[mfbukowski]

The witnesses were the "First Presidency" or the equivalent as we now call them.

They sought out the 12. Problem solved. We pretty much always have 15 or more apostles ordained as prophets seers and revelators. Sometimes there are more than 3 members of the first presidency.

[mfbukowski]

If you were a fundamentalist Mormon, this whole dilemma would be pretty easy to wrap your head around lol

But I think there would be a few others raised.

I hope the couple in the picture are holding hands.