How Human Was Jesus?

[teddyaware]

Thanks for that, but it doesn't really address my point.

Christ could have decided not to rescue us - we agree on that. But it seems you are equating this with sin. I fail to see that Christ exercising his free agency and electing not to do us a favour is a sinful act. You seem to be saying it would be - how so?

... because God the Father commanded his Son, Jesus, to make the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice; and if Jesus had disobeyed his Father's will, he would have committed a sin -- "for sin is the transgression of the law (of God)."

It appears you may seem to think God has the right to make any choice he wants to make, even choices contrary to the nature of God -- he can't. God himself is eternally obligated to obey his own laws of righteousness; he is not a dictator without moral imperative to live by his own holy laws and edicts. Nevertheless,God himself is a free agent. He chooses to be holy by his own free will and choice, for the which I will praise his sacred name forever.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also. (Alma 42)

Edited January 18, 2013 by teddyaware

[mathonihah]

Johnnie Moore of Liberty University has an interesting take on Jesus as a very human person, and, like everyone else at that time, quite dirty and vulnerable to disease in the early 1st century A.D. Is this a correct view of Jesus? Was he fully one of us?

http://religion.blog...-god/?hpt=hp_c3 .

Haven't read the thread; not enough time. But unless he has a telescope that can look back in time, how does he know that they were "dirty"? In Mark 7:1-4 we read:

"Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

"And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

"For the Pharisees,

and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not,

holding the tradition of the elders.

"And when they come from the market,

except they wash, they eat not

. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the

washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables

."

LOL! Those guys were a lot cleaner than I am. I don't wash my hands every time I eat!

[mathonihah]

I don't know why anybody would think that Jesus' body would be impervious to dirt or germs. The only thing original I could find with Johnnie Moore's repeated references to a "dirty God" was that it seemed like a juvenile attempt to mix personal hygiene with theology. Oh Jesus might have had B.O.! Hahahaha. I am not amused. Although some of us avoid discussing the bathroom habits of the Messiah, it shouldn't be taken as a concession that we think He never used the bathroom.

I don't think that someone who commands us to "Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean;" (D&C 88:124) was himself idle or unclean.

[mfbukowski]

I am not comfortable with that interpretation.............. and it is an interpretation.

For me, Christ was fully God (and fully human) from the outset. He was perfect and sinless from day one.

I'm not sure we know what "received of a fulness" really means.

But we are not "perfect and sinless from the outset", so how could he be "fully human"?

[mfbukowski]

Another "what if" question?

Sigh.

You are beginning to see already. That's all there are.

[Calm]

Thanks for that, but it doesn't really address my point.

Christ could have decided not to rescue us - we agree on that. But it seems you are equating this with sin. I fail to see that Christ exercising his free agency and electing not to do us a favour is a sinful act. You seem to be saying it would be - how so?

Would not exercising a perfect love for his creations and spiritual siblings require a willingness to help us in the best way possible and not putting himself first? Would not his love be less than perfect if he decided not to rescue us? Even if not sinful (depending on whether you see God commanding him to save us or Christ simply volunteering), perfection is more than just sinlessness, it is also the fulness of the virtues.

[Socratic12]

I think a distinction should be made between merely human - being capable of pursuing these values - and being fully human - realizing these values as fully as possible. If we ask what a fully human person would be, we can provide an answer by sketching what a full realization of these values would be. The fully human person would realize happiness, not at the expense of others (which would conflict with justice), but by seeking the happiness of others. One will act wisely and prudently, not using reason for destructive ends, but for the sake of human well-being. One will seek, not just the increase of factual knowledge, but a full appreciation and understanding of the nature of things. One will seek to overcome all forms of restrictive tribalism, and to find ways of expressing a real love and concern for all sentient beings. Jesus Christ set a full and moral ideal for human beings, which can help us to think about the future we should be seeking for humanity. He may have been dirty on the outside but inside he was lilly white. In Jesus' own words when addressing the scribes and Pharisees he said "....for ye are like whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones and of uncleanness. We would do well to heed the Master's words.

[ERayR]

He was totally human. To me the question is How human are we?

[Calm]

Getting flashbacks to Dune.

[ERayR]

Getting flashbacks to Dune.

Did you read the complete series clear to the end?

[Calm]

Define end.

[volgadon]

Haven't read the thread; not enough time. But unless he has a telescope that can look back in time, how does he know that they were "dirty"? In Mark 7:1-4 we read:

"Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

"And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

"For the Pharisees,

and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not,

holding the tradition of the elders.

"And when they come from the market,

except they wash, they eat not

. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the

washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables

."

LOL! Those guys were a lot cleaner than I am. I don't wash my hands every time I eat!

Not really about hygiene, it was a ritual thing, usually with a minimal amount of water.

[ERayR]

Define end.

To where the Duncan Idaho Ghola powers were culminated into him being the Kwisach Haderack (savior) and the robot turning over power and allegiance to him. I think it was Sandworms of Dune. Frank's son and his associate have certainly utilized the popularity of Frank's Dune books to sell their own writing. Not that their books are not good in their own right.

Edited February 10, 2013 by ERayR

[Calm]

To where the Duncan Idaho Ghola powers were culminated into him being the Kwisach Haderack (savior) and the robot turning over power and allegiance to him. I think it was Sandworms of Dune. Frank's son and his associate have certainly utilized the popularity of Frank's Dune books to sell their own writing. Not that their books are not good in their own right.

Nope, I think I got to Chapterhouse, maybe the next one.

[3DOP]

I don't think that someone who commands us to "Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean;" (D&C 88:124) was himself idle or unclean.

It seems I was unclear.

My comment was not meant to admit that the Son of God was unclean in any way. I found the original article insulting. The author seemed to think it would be shocking to those of us who believe in Christ to discover that He was "so human" that His feet would get dirty from walking barefoot. As your comments seems to indicate, like us, Our Lord would need to clean Himself because His body was as susceptible as ours to dirt and bacteria. I think the title of the article had something to do with a "dirty God", and that Jesus would have been filthy by our standards. That was the reason for my comments and why I found the article intellectually insulting and irreverent.

3DOP

Edited February 11, 2013 by 3DOP