The Ideal For Zion: Egalitarian Unity?

[CV75]

As to the unity, I believe the unity is that all have access to Christ, which is the only unity needed. Women wearing pants and tieless nursey leaders, beard wearers, and skirt wearers all unified in Christ.

There is also unity to be found not only in the white clothing worn in the temple, and not only in the dress and grooming codes of certain callings, but in the access to Christ that the adherence and patience of the faithful to these standards (and symbols) extends to everyone in and out of the Church.

Also, for whom paisly ties and pants and beards are symbols, unity with others is only secondary to having people unite with them (not Christ) and the point they are making.

[CV75]

How does one " repent sufficiently " ? Can one 'sorta' repent? Can one only repent of some sins but not others? Can one repent with the attitude that maybe tomorrow one will go back to one's evil ways?

There are degrees of repentance just as there are degrees of obedience and glory. The more one repents, the more the Atonement takes effect, and he greater glory and kingdom one enjoys in the after-life.

[gurn]

J. Ruben Clark in a 1942 Conference talk (http://www.latterday...r-vs-communism/) helped resolved some of these problems for me. Let me provide two significant points he made. The first is that "dead level" equality is not a part of the United Order. Here are his words:

The next point is that private property ownership is key to the system.

I think with these two points firmly in place the United Order becomes something very different from what many members have imagined in their minds.

Thanks for the link to the article, it was very enlightening.

[mfbukowski]

What would "egalitarian unity" mean as applied to either the membership of the Church or the pure in heart who comprise Zion? Is such possible? Or even an "ideal" to strive for?

Sounds like an interesting topic, but where did that phrase come from and why do you think it has something to do with Zion? I think I missed something.

[mfbukowski]

Where did you get this phrase, and why are *you* thinking to perhaps apply it to Zion?

OOPs Guess I should have read more!

[The Nehor]

I think everyone (including J Reuben Clark) is guessing at the end application. When we are willing to live the law (or God tells usmto even if we are not) I am suremthe details will surprise most of us.

[Maidservant]

I think an essential element conceptually and in practical application of when we relate to each other as human beings in our full potential (often termed as Zion and/or as the celestial kingdom) is the idea that we are family. We must be fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters to each other (etc). When we imagine celestial relations with 'strangers', we come up with different practical applications than if we begin FIRST with a completely activated family relationship and feeling toward one another. Once we are a family, how we then relate AS A FAMILY to the materials of the earth (food, clothing, shelter, enjoyment, etc) is very different than if we are just a bunch of non-family that is supposed to be living 'equally' and peacefully with each other.

Think about family meal times. At my home, every one comes together when I call and we do the work necessary to produce a meal. Someone chops onions, someone is browning the hamburger, someone is clearing up the table. While sometimes there is bickering ("*I* wanted to slice the tomatoes!" "I ALWAYS have to set out the forks!"), nevertheless, we do the work as one and no one is making a calculation as to an exchange (onion chopping as a fair exchange for mashing the avocado) and some adjustment is made for the abilities of each person (I don't give the 6 year old jobs with sharp knives). Parents know that kids care about FAIRNESS, but in the end sometimes you just have to teach them that absolute calculation of fairness isn't possible and that the best way to approach it is just to take care of what you have been given and do your best and just enjoy it and enjoy working together as a family.

Then we sit down at the table together to enjoy what we made and enjoy each others' company. No one is excluded from the table and no accounting is made about exact contributions. We are just FAMILY and we relate to each other and to the food (material items) as a FAMILY. In fact, the kid who just arrived home from play practice gets to eat even though they never helped with that exact meal.

Someone might ask, Well, what if you have a kid who simply won't come work. Does he not get to eat? Does he get punished in some other way?

I'm not sure, because I've never had to deal with this. I have been blessed to have kids who always come when I call. So I honestly don't know what I would do in practice with someone who incorrigibly would not participate. When my children express protest in a natural, kid way, then I just insist and maybe say, "Hey, I need your help. You can do this. I really appreciate it." Things like that, and they respond.

But my thinking is that--again--this is a process. If someone is incorrigibly non-participatory, then that's not the celestial kingdom, is it? Not completely. The celestial kingdom is NOT a solitary venture. It needs all of us. It isn't just the incorrigible person who needs to repent; it's the rest of us who have to ask ourselves, is this man still our brother? is he still part of our family if he's not helping? do we create enmity here? or how do we reach THIS ONE to bring him back to the supper table (both the work part and the enjoy eating part)?

Anyway, lots I could say on that, but point being, I think when we imagine a lot of "zion" societies, we miss this main element of FAMILY RELATIONSHIP, so we are always trying to figure out how things could go smoothly between strangers. But the point is, we won't be strangers, or even neighbors, we'll be family. And that changes the viewpoint and the actual living considerably.

Until we are FAMILY, we might be able to have peace, but it won't be the celestial/Zion fulness, it will be a telestial or terrestrial situation. Or as I understand.

[janderich]

I think everyone (including J Reuben Clark) is guessing at the end application. When we are willing to live the law (or God tells usmto even if we are not) I am suremthe details will surprise most of us.

No doubt some details allude us. But the bigger problem in my mind is that in some (many?) instances, because we within the church do not understand, we have imagined that equality is confinement or that unity means loss of freedom. Nothing could be further from the truth. The scriptures indicate quite the opposite, "And they had all things common among them: therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift" (4 Ne 3). The fruit of living in unity is freedom, not confinement.

[BCSpace]

What would "egalitarian unity" mean as applied to either the membership of the Church or the pure in heart who comprise Zion? Is such possible? Or even an "ideal" to strive for?

It would seem to invalidate fundamental LDS doctrines. For example, obedience. Or the notion that all philosophies have equal value. etc.

[Ahab]

I think an essential element conceptually and in practical application of when we relate to each other as human beings in our full potential (often termed as Zion and/or as the celestial kingdom) is the idea that we are family. We must be fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters to each other (etc). When we imagine celestial relations with 'strangers', we come up with different practical applications than if we begin FIRST with a completely activated family relationship and feeling toward one another. Once we are a family, how we then relate AS A FAMILY to the materials of the earth (food, clothing, shelter, enjoyment, etc) is very different than if we are just a bunch of non-family that is supposed to be living 'equally' and peacefully with each other.

Think about family meal times. At my home, every one comes together when I call and we do the work necessary to produce a meal. Someone chops onions, someone is browning the hamburger, someone is clearing up the table. While sometimes there is bickering ("*I* wanted to slice the tomatoes!" "I ALWAYS have to set out the forks!"), nevertheless, we do the work as one and no one is making a calculation as to an exchange (onion chopping as a fair exchange for mashing the avocado) and some adjustment is made for the abilities of each person (I don't give the 6 year old jobs with sharp knives). Parents know that kids care about FAIRNESS, but in the end sometimes you just have to teach them that absolute calculation of fairness isn't possible and that the best way to approach it is just to take care of what you have been given and do your best and just enjoy it and enjoy working together as a family.

Then we sit down at the table together to enjoy what we made and enjoy each others' company. No one is excluded from the table and no accounting is made about exact contributions. We are just FAMILY and we relate to each other and to the food (material items) as a FAMILY. In fact, the kid who just arrived home from play practice gets to eat even though they never helped with that exact meal.

Someone might ask, Well, what if you have a kid who simply won't come work. Does he not get to eat? Does he get punished in some other way?

I'm not sure, because I've never had to deal with this. I have been blessed to have kids who always come when I call. So I honestly don't know what I would do in practice with someone who incorrigibly would not participate. When my children express protest in a natural, kid way, then I just insist and maybe say, "Hey, I need your help. You can do this. I really appreciate it." Things like that, and they respond.

But my thinking is that--again--this is a process. If someone is incorrigibly non-participatory, then that's not the celestial kingdom, is it? Not completely. The celestial kingdom is NOT a solitary venture. It needs all of us. It isn't just the incorrigible person who needs to repent; it's the rest of us who have to ask ourselves, is this man still our brother? is he still part of our family if he's not helping? do we create enmity here? or how do we reach THIS ONE to bring him back to the supper table (both the work part and the enjoy eating part)?

Anyway, lots I could say on that, but point being, I think when we imagine a lot of "zion" societies, we miss this main element of FAMILY RELATIONSHIP, so we are always trying to figure out how things could go smoothly between strangers. But the point is, we won't be strangers, or even neighbors, we'll be family. And that changes the viewpoint and the actual living considerably.

Until we are FAMILY, we might be able to have peace, but it won't be the celestial/Zion fulness, it will be a telestial or terrestrial situation. Or as I understand.

Wonderful explanation. Now apply that to a whole planet of people who do all kinds of things to help each other with nobody hoarding more than he needs for himself.

What do we have now? Something like 1% of the people having 99% of the wealth of this world's goods and services while many struggle very hard to get by, or die. Violence among us, with brothers and sisters killing or raping each other. Greed on a massive scale. Me me me. Am I my brother's keeper? They're getting what they deserve out of life!

Ack! Makes me sick. I still do what I can to help, though. Hopefully someday soon things will be better once God comes down here to govern all of us who will be here.