The Ideal For Zion: Egalitarian Unity?

[DavidB]

What would "egalitarian unity" mean as applied to either the membership of the Church or the pure in heart who comprise Zion? Is such possible? Or even an "ideal" to strive for?

[CV75]

What would "egalitarian unity" mean as applied to either the membership of the Church or the pure in heart who comprise Zion? Is such possible? Or even an "ideal" to strive for?

In my way of thinking, it is that in Christ we all have the same promise for eternal life and exaltation, which inspires us to be of one mind and one heart (in a good way) by losing our lives for Christ's sake, only to find them.

[blackstrap]

On earth there have been egalitarian societies but they have had a couple of things in common.

1. Everyone was in the 'same boat' economically with little or no need for stratification.

2. The society was relatively isolated from outside influences

3. The culture reflected a community benefit rather than an individual benefit.

[Maidservant]

Where did you get this phrase, and why are *you* thinking to perhaps apply it to Zion?

[CV75]

On earth there have been egalitarian societies but they have had a couple of things in common.

1. Everyone was in the 'same boat' economically with little or no need for stratification.

2. The society was relatively isolated from outside influences

3. The culture reflected a community benefit rather than an individual benefit.

I'm thinking that 1 and 2 may apply to Zion, but instead of #3, the culture values and reflects individual, family and community benefit. The citizens have all things in common and each citizen agrees with and unites around how they go about having all things in common. Equal in the eternal blessings, and equal acording to their wants and needs, and their talents and gifts.

[DavidB]

Where did you get this phrase, and why are *you* thinking to perhaps apply it to Zion?

Is this for me?

The phrase comes from CV75

[DavidB]

In my way of thinking, it is that in Christ we all have the same promise for eternal life and exaltation, which inspires us to be of one mind and one heart (in a good way) by losing our lives for Christ's sake, only to find them.

Do all receive the same promise of eternal AND exaltation?

Eternal life, I would say yes. All who come to earth are ensured eternal life

Exaltation, I am honestly not so sure. Not all who come to earth hear the gospel and even the honorable who die without the gospel seem only eligible for the Terrestrial Kingdom (though I hope I misunderstand in this regard)

Edited January 5, 2013 by DavidB

[CV75]

Do all receive the same promise of eternal AND exaltation?

Eternal life, I would say yes. All who come to earth are ensured eternal life

Exaltation, I am honestly not so sure. Not all who come to earth hear the gospel and even the honorable who die without the gospel seem only eligible for the Terrestrial Kingdom (though I hope I misunderstand in this regard)

When I say somethig like "promise of eternal life and exaltation," i mean that Chrst's atonement promises and allows that all God's children can have these blessings, but these blessings are also of course conditional (immortality being absolute for everyone, unconditionally).

The seal of the Holy Spirit of Promise applies to those who have met the conditions for eternal life and exaltation, thus fulfilling the promise offered through their Redeemer.

[CV75]

The phrase comes from CV75

Yes, I used it in another thread to convey the idea that the Church's "order of things" is designed or intended to bring willing people (I use Matthew 5;3-13 to describe them) together as one, unite them, and gear them toward receiving the eternal blessings.

[gurn]

The whole concept of unity is a bit confusing to me. Let me illustrate, fifteen years ago I purchased a fixer upper home, because that’s what I could afford. A member of our ward lived in a similar fixer upper. Fifteen years later I have a nice home and he still has a fixer upper. We each have the ability to make the repairs and I’ve spent many nights and Saturdays working on my house. He’s spent his time doing something else.

With our varying inclination to work, how is it that some won’t naturally have more or nicer things than others? Will each be content with what they have, or will there still be jealousy and envy at those who have excelled? Will there be a cap put on the productive to keep them from over achieving, and how does a society prosper under those circumstances?

From my current perspective, Zion is a mystery to me.

[janderich]

The whole concept of unity is a bit confusing to me. Let me illustrate, fifteen years ago I purchased a fixer upper home, because that’s what I could afford. A member of our ward lived in a similar fixer upper. Fifteen years later I have a nice home and he still has a fixer upper. We each have the ability to make the repairs and I’ve spent many nights and Saturdays working on my house. He’s spent his time doing something else.

With our varying inclination to work, how is it that some won’t naturally have more or nicer things than others? Will each be content with what they have, or will there still be jealousy and envy at those who have excelled? Will there be a cap put on the productive to keep them from over achieving, and how does a society prosper under those circumstances?

From my current perspective, Zion is a mystery to me.

J. Ruben Clark in a 1942 Conference talk (http://www.latterday...r-vs-communism/) helped resolved some of these problems for me. Let me provide two significant points he made. The first is that "dead level" equality is not a part of the United Order. Here are his words:

One of the places in which some of the brethren are going astray is this: There is continuous reference in the revelations to equality among the brethren, but I think you will find only one place where that equality is really described, though it is referred to in other revelations. That revelation (D. & C. 51:3) affirms that every man is to be “equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs.” ( See also D. & C. 82 17; 78: 5-6. ) Obviously, this is not a case of “dead level” equality. It is “equality” that will vary as much as the man’s circumstances, his family, his wants and needs, may vary.

The next point is that private property ownership is key to the system.

The fundamental principle of this system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which he could alienate, or hypothecate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and the life under the United Order was not a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph, himself said, (History of the Church, Volume III, p. 28). The United Order is an individualistic system, not a communal system.

I think with these two points firmly in place the United Order becomes something very different from what many members have imagined in their minds.

[DavidB]

When I say somethig like "promise of eternal life and exaltation," i mean that Chrst's atonement promises and allows that all God's children can have these blessings, but these blessings are also of course conditional (immortality being absolute for everyone, unconditionally).

The seal of the Holy Spirit of Promise applies to those who have met the conditions for eternal life and exaltation, thus fulfilling the promise offered through their Redeemer.

But is exaltation something that everyone can be truely promised? From the scriptures, it would appear that those who never hear the gospel in this life are not eligible for exaltation. If such is truely the case, then there are persons who the promise of exaltation could not apply.

Edited January 6, 2013 by DavidB

[DavidB]

Yes, I used it in another thread to convey the idea that the Church's "order of things" is designed or intended to bring willing people (I use Matthew 5;3-13 to describe them) together as one, unite them, and gear them toward receiving the eternal blessings.

as your usage in the other thread, I agree with walden that the Unity of Church has nothing to do with what one wears to Church.

[CV75]

But is exaltation something that everyone can be truely promised? From the scriptures, it would appear that those who never hear the gospel in this life are eligible for exaltation. If such is truely the case, then there are persons who the promise of exaltation could not apply.

I think you mean to instead say, "From the scriptures, it would appear that those who never hear the gospel in this life are NOT eligible for exaltation." I think that is a matter of how one takes all the scriptures as a whole. I think you are referring to D&C 76:72-75, which I take in light of teh scriptures as whole to say (commentary in brackets):

72 Behold, these are they who died without law [i take this as a separate class from that described in verses 73-75 and means those that died temporally without knowledge of the Gospel but yet "died" spiritually in relation to their own conscience through the abuse and denial of the Light of Christ, and then only accept Him to a degree in in the spirit world];

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison [i take 73-75 to be the class of people that heard the Gospel in any measure (up to and including a fullness of correctness); these remain in prison until the resurrection as they have not responded well or fully to the whole message of redemption in the spirit world], whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh [although they, according to the Lord’s judgment, could have], but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men [because they chose to be blinded (as did Korihor, but not to such an extent as to be antichrist about it), and remained so blinded, or unwilling/unable to fully recover, in the spirit world]

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulnes [they only chose to repent to a certain degree].

So I maintain that that the promise is extended to all and made possible for all by virtue of the Lord's atonement.

[CV75]

as your usage in the other thread, I agree with walden that the Unity of Church has nothing to do with what one wears to Church.

I think the point(s) can be made that it can and does--is that the purpose of this thread?

[DavidB]

CV75,

what of peoples who never heard of Christ and it being nothing to do with being blinded by the craftiness of others; this would mean entire generations of people - based on section 76 - who never could have met all the conditions for exaltation.

[DavidB]

I think the point(s) can be made that it can and does--is that the purpose of this thread?

the purpose the thread is to discuss "egalitarian unity".

[Calm]

The whole concept of unity is a bit confusing to me. Let me illustrate, fifteen years ago I purchased a fixer upper home, because that’s what I could afford. A member of our ward lived in a similar fixer upper. Fifteen years later I have a nice home and he still has a fixer upper. We each have the ability to make the repairs and I’ve spent many nights and Saturdays working on my house. He’s spent his time doing something else.

With our varying inclination to work, how is it that some won’t naturally have more or nicer things than others? Will each be content with what they have, or will there still be jealousy and envy at those who have excelled? Will there be a cap put on the productive to keep them from over achieving, and how does a society prosper under those circumstances?

From my current perspective, Zion is a mystery to me.

Using your example...

If those who desire a nicer home do not want to put in the work into the home to make it nicer themselves, they can choose to do something else that has value in exchange for someone else who can work on the home but not accomplish what the other can do. There is no reason to assume that everyone will be completely selfsufficient in all of their needs and there will be much trading of work just as there is now.

What will likely be different in my opinion is the additional stuff that gets attached to exchanges of work effort such as self promotion, attempting to maximize one's profits etc. Instead people will choose to do their work not only for need, but for the joy of it.

[Calm]

But is exaltation something that everyone can be truely promised? From the scriptures, it would appear that those who never hear the gospel in this life are not eligible for exaltation. If such is truely the case, then there are persons who the promise of exaltation could not apply.

Those who die before the age of accountability are eligible for exaltation according to the scriptures and many will have never heard the gospel.

[CV75]

what of peoples who never heard of Christ and it being nothing to do with being blinded by the craftiness of others; this would mean entire generations of people - based on section 76 - who never could have met all the conditions for exaltation.

Maybe you missed post #14 which adressses this (see commentary for verse 72). Those who never heard of Christ still have the light of Christ, and this is the law they are given to abide by in mortality. Those who hearken to this light and live by this law are subsequently better off in the spirit world than those who do not. They can progress and become exalted. The terrestrial kingdom is for those who acted contrary to this light and died without it, and then only repented sufficiently in the spirit world to enter the terrestrial kingdom.

[blackstrap]

How does one " repent sufficiently " ? Can one 'sorta' repent? Can one only repent of some sins but not others? Can one repent with the attitude that maybe tomorrow one will go back to one's evil ways?

[DavidB]

Maybe you missed post #14 which adressses this (see commentary for verse 72). Those who never heard of Christ still have the light of Christ, and this is the law they are given to abide by in mortality. Those who hearken to this light and live by this law are subsequently better off in the spirit world than those who do not. They can progress and become exalted. The terrestrial kingdom is for those who acted contrary to this light and died without it, and then only repented sufficiently in the spirit world to enter the terrestrial kingdom.

I do not have an opinion on kingdom of glory progression. I did find another verse I was thinking of, that those who died without the law who would have accepted it will be in the celestial kingdom.

[DavidB]

As to the unity, I believe the unity is that all have access to Christ, which is the only unity needed. Women wearing pants and tieless nursey leaders, beard wearers, and skirt wearers all unified in Christ.

[Calm]

How does one " repent sufficiently " ? Can one 'sorta' repent? Can one only repent of some sins but not others? Can one repent with the attitude that maybe tomorrow one will go back to one's evil ways?

I think one must repent fully as in be completely purified of one's sins but it can make a difference whether it is because of need to repent because recognition of the eternal laws or desire out of love of God that we repent; also it is how far one wants to be one with the Saviour that makes the difference, iow how much of our will are we willing to align with his Will. Edited January 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[CV75]

I do not have an opinion on kingdom of glory progression. I did find another verse I was thinking of, that those who died without the law who would have accepted it will be in the celestial kingdom.

My comments are NOT about progression between kingdoms after the resurrection. But yes, D&C 137:7-8 is one way a person that dies without the law can be exalted.