Gift Of Tongues Question

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying...

“If you have a matter to reveal, let it be in your own tongue; do not indulge too much in the exercise of the gift of tongues, or the devil will take advantage of the innocent and unwary. You may speak in tongues for your own comfort, but I lay this down for a rule, that if anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine.”

Ideas on what the underlined portion might mean? Seems Joseph may have been promoting a "Private Prayer Language" type idea...

http://www.lifetv.org/Web_HTML/html/Commentary%20folder/Tongues.htm

[Stargazer]

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying...

Ideas on what the underlined portion might mean? Seems Joseph may have been promoting a "Private Prayer Language" type idea...

http://www.lifetv.or...der/Tongues.htm

No. "You may speak in tongues for your own comfort" means that you don't use speaking in an unknown tongue to convert people to the faith, but for enhancing faith. Paul wrote about this:

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, aexcept I shall speak to you either by brevelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Now, the gift of tongues in relation to advancing the work of the kingdom is to be able to communicate the doctrine of Christ to people whose language you have not learned to speak. This is illustrated well by what happened on the Day of Pentecost, where the Apostles taught openly among the people, and those who heard who were not native speakers of Aramaic or Hebrew heard what the apostles said in their own native languages, languages that the apostles were not speaking in.

The gift of tongues is also manifest in a missionary quickly learning the language of the people he has been assigned to preach to. Some of us have the ability to learn languages faster than others, and this too might be the gift of tongues operating in them (some may say that this is a just a natural ability, but how would they know?). There was a missionary in my mission who did not speak any foreign language before his mission, but whose patriarchal blessing stated that he had been given the gift of tongues in order to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth. This missionary learned to speak his mission language just about as well as the other elders in his MTC district by the end of training, but by the time he acquired his second companion he spoke the language with almost native fluency, so much so that his second companion couldn't follow some of the conversations that this elder got into. He had a very slight accent at the end of his mission, enough so that a careful hearer could tell he wasn't a native speaker, but could not always tell what his native language was.

But speaking in unknown tongues is for edification in the household of faith, not as a missionary tool.

[cinepro]

In the FAIR podcast interview with Teryl Givens, Brother Givens makes the following observation about Spiritual Gifts in the LDS Church:

I think there's no question, just as the gifts faded in the primitive Church, so there seems to be a diminishment of the spiritual manifestations and gifts in the restored Church. To some extent, that's a function of any church that becomes institutionalized...normatized over time. And to some extent that was a deliberate strategy on the part of Church leaders who wanted to de-emphasize spiritual gifts.

I think it's a natural process, I think Mormons have accommodated themselves in some ways by changing the lexicon of scriptural resources that they use to identify or define the nature of spiritual experience. For example, instead of focusing on those BoM episodes where we have angelic visitations or interaction with angelic beings, we emphasize those verses that originally were given to Joseph Smith to describe the translation process, that have to do with feelings and impressions and stupors of thought.

And that has become the template, if you will, for revelation. So that's one way Mormons have accommodated themselves to a less charismatic church.

(15:18)

Occasionally, "The Gift of Tongues" will come up in a Church class, and the conversation will turn to an almost derisive mention of churches that engage in "glossolalia", or the speaking of "unknown" tongues in a church meeting. I've never had the guts to mention that this was practiced among early LDS and was considered to be an authentic gift of the spirit. But at least Givens' comment helps put the practice (and it's denial among modern LDS) into perspective.

Since there were no foreign language missions in Joseph Smith's lifetime (except maybe to the Native Americans?), and "glossolalia" was somewhat common among early LDS, it is extremely unlikely that anything Joseph Smith said about "the gift of tongues" was referring to missionaries speaking and understanding different earthly languages.

Edited December 6, 2012 by cinepro

[cinepro]

FWIW, here's what one church member wrote in the Improvement Era in 1904:

James X. Allen, an early Utah physician, expressed his concerns in an Improvement Era article entitled "Passing of the Gift of Tongues":

I was somewhat startled a few days ago, while in conversation with a young brother who had just returned from a mission to Scandinavia, by hearing him remark that he had never in his life heard anyone speak in tongues.... He has filled an honorable mission, and is today strong in the faith, and yet, he has never heard and experienced one of the most common gifts of the gospel, as enjoyed years ago.

The remark was somewhat of a shock to me; because in the early days of the Church--where I was reared—there were so many of the Saints who enjoyed the gifts, and there were none among my acquaintances who had not heard the sweet sound of the gift of tongues. Many times there would be both speaking and singing in tongues, in the same sacrament meeting. The interpretation of tongues was equally as common as the tongues themselves. In fact, we were wont to regard the speaking in tongues, the interpretation of tongues, the relating of dreams and prophesying, as an essential part of the latter-day gospel.

If men now think they can get along without the gifts of the gospel, may not the time come when they may believe they can get along without its ordinances? (Allen 1904, 109, 111)

Dialogue, Vol.24, No.1, p.25

[mfbukowski]

I think clearly the alleged "gift of tongues" in the sense of glossolalia is nothing but babbling and was an early practice brought into the church by Protestant converts who thought it had legitimacy. But in the manual already linked to, it gives this quote of Joseph:

“We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted … ; whereas, there is nothing unnatural in the Spirit of God.”¹¹

“Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may.”¹²

“If you have a matter to reveal, let it be in your own tongue; do not indulge too much in the exercise of the gift of tongues, or the devil will take advantage of the innocent and unwary. You may speak in tongues for your own comfort, but I lay this down for a rule, that if anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine.”¹³

^{https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-33?lang=eng#13-36481_000_037}

In my opinion that pretty much answers the question.

The correct interpretation of the "gift of tongues" is found in learning a language quickly or understanding a language one has never studied. I have actually had the experience of being able to understand every word of a blessing in which I was asked to participate without knowing the language of the "voice".

So I suppose I would disagree with those who think that glossolalia is a legitimate gift of the spirit

[mfbukowski]

...it is extremely unlikely that anything Joseph Smith said about "the gift of tongues"was referring to missionaries speaking and understanding different earthly languages.

Did you read that quote? That is what it says! What am I missing here? This is what it says:

The purpose of the gift of tongues is to teach the gospel to others.

The Prophet spoke at an 1834 conference of elders: “Joseph Smith then gave an explanation of the gift of tongues, that it was particularly instituted for the preaching of the Gospel to other nations and languages, but it was not given for the government of the Church.”⁶

Edited December 6, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

Did you read that quote? That is what it says! What am I missing here? This is what it says:

Oops, I stand corrected.

[mfbukowski]

Oops, I stand corrected.

OK no problem. I made a mistake once myself, I think it was in 1987 or 1988.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I think clearly the alleged "gift of tongues" in the sense of glossolalia is nothing but babbling and was an early practice brought into the church by Protestant converts who thought it had legitimacy. But in the manual already linked to, it gives this quote of Joseph:

^{https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-33?lang=eng#13-36481_000_037}

In my opinion that pretty much answers the question.

The correct interpretation of the "gift of tongues" is found in learning a language quickly or understanding a language one has never studied. I have actually had the experience of being able to understand every word of a blessing in which I was asked to participate without knowing the language of the "voice".

So I suppose I would disagree with those who think that glossolalia is a legitimate gift of the spirit

And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; and when she had done this, she took the king, Lamoni, by the hand, and behold he arose and stood upon his feet.(Alma 19:30)

[mfbukowski]

And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; and when she had done this, she took the king, Lamoni, by the hand, and behold he arose and stood upon his feet.(Alma 19:30)

So RLDS still "speak in tongues"?

What do you make of the earlier Joseph Smith quotes?

[Tacenda]

FWIW, here's what one church member wrote in the Improvement Era in 1904:

In my readings on the Holy Ghost, it mentions that having the gift of the Holy Ghost leads to the gift of tongues. I guess it's the first I've heard of that, I'm super slow.

http://www.truegospel.com/tongues.html

Edited December 6, 2012 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; and when she had done this, she took the king, Lamoni, by the hand, and behold he arose and stood upon his feet.(Alma 19:30)

I mean after all, I myself often speak many words which are not understood right on this board, but I haven't raised anyone from the dead.

[theplains]

Chapter 33 says, "We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they

would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted … ; whereas, there is nothing

unnatural in the Spirit of God".

Did this occur in a ward or temple, or both?

“Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation ... Let no one speak

in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may

discern or interpret, or another may".

Is there any recorded event at any of the General Conferences held in Salt Lake where a speaker spoke

in a tongue and then it was interpreted back in English to the same crowd at Salt Lake?

Thanks,

Jim

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So RLDS still "speak in tongues"?

What do you make of the earlier Joseph Smith quotes?

Rarely, I've never witnessed it since joining, but my wife has in the past. The only Restoration church I know of that regularly has the gift of tongues manifest is the Church of Jesus Christ (Monongahela, PA).

There is a group of folks here in Independence from various Restoration churches (including LDS) that are meeting together to learn more and share their experiences with the outward gifts of the Spirit.

Joseph's quotes are fine with me, he never spoke against tongues (unknown language type), only against their excessive use and false manifestations, and his mother routinely spoke in tongues (unknown language type).

Edited December 7, 2012 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Calm]

his mother routinely spoke in tongues (unknown language type).

The word "routinely" just doesn't seem like a good fit for the use of the gifts of the Spirit to me. Not being critical here, just making a personal observation.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The word "routinely" just doesn't seem like a good fit for the use of the gifts of the Spirit to me. Not being critical here, just making a personal observation.

ofttimes?

[Calm]

ofttimes?

[mfbukowski]

The word "routinely" just doesn't seem like a good fit for the use of the gifts of the Spirit to me. Not being critical here, just making a personal observation.

One of the things I am questioning is whether or not such things should be classified as "gifts of the spirit" or not. Clearly the gift of tongues in the sense of the ability to speak known languages to facilitate gospel understanding is one thing and jabbering in "unknown languages" is quite different.

To me, it calls into question whether or not an "unknown language"- spoken by one person to no one else- can be a "language" at all.

I doubt that the "gift of tongues" includes simply having one to flap. (A tongue that is!)

[volgadon]

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying...

Ideas on what the underlined portion might mean? Seems Joseph may have been promoting a "Private Prayer Language" type idea...

http://www.lifetv.or...der/Tongues.htm

I don't think it was so much a "private prayer language" as much as it was a link to pure language before its corruption. For more thoughts see Brown's "In Heaven as It Is on Earth," and Barlow's presentation, here.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

One of the things I am questioning is whether or not such things should be classified as "gifts of the spirit" or not. Clearly the gift of tongues in the sense of the ability to speak known languages to facilitate gospel understanding is one thing and jabbering in "unknown languages" is quite different.

To me, it calls into question whether or not an "unknown language"- spoken by one person to no one else- can be a "language" at all.

I doubt that the "gift of tongues" includes simply having one to flap. (A tongue that is!)

I believe Paul may answer your question...

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." (1 Cor. 14:14)

** It seems that our spirit has some awareness that we don't consciously have, and that when speaking privately in tongues, in an "unknown language" it may, in fact, be our spirit praying for those things we cannot utter or are not aware of...

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

[mfbukowski]

I believe Paul may answer your question...

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." (1 Cor. 14:14)

** It seems that our spirit has some awareness that we don't consciously have, and that when speaking privately in tongues, in an "unknown language" it may, in fact, be our spirit praying for those things we cannot utter or are not aware of...

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

So God doesn't know the intents of our hearts?

We even have to verbalize what we cannot verbalize so we speak jibberish to God because otherwise he could not "hear" us?

Man I am glad I was not born mute because then God could not hear by prayers.

Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just taking the idea to its logical extension in order to understand what you are saying. And with the Romans quote - it already says "what cannot be uttered"- why would one utter in jibberish what "cannot be uttered"?

Just trying to understand - it seems totally contradictory to me.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So God doesn't know the intents of our hearts?

We even have to verbalize what we cannot verbalize so we speak jibberish to God because otherwise he could not "hear" us?

Man I am glad I was not born mute because then God could not hear by prayers.

Honestly I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just taking the idea to its logical extension in order to understand what you are saying. And with the Romans quote - it already says "what cannot be uttered"- why would one utter in jibberish what "cannot be uttered"?

Just trying to understand - it seems totally contradictory to me.

Ask Paul- he said it not me.

It has taken many years for me to overcome the modern LDS/RLDS aversion to outward manifestations of spiritual gifts and physical displays of praise. I am just now beginning to slightly raise my hands during hymns and prayers.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Found a scripture I think is pertinent to the question of whether tongues is exclusively about foreign languages in preaching the Gospel or whether it involves both foreign languages and unknown tongues...

"And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues." (Moroni 10:16)

** When referring to the gifts of the Spirit, Moroni seems to make a seperation between langauges and tongues. **

Edited December 13, 2012 by BookofMormonLuvr

[mfbukowski]

Found a scripture I think is pertinent to the question of whether tongues is exclusively about foreign languages in preaching the Gospel or whether it involves both foreign languages and unknown tongues...

"And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues." (Moroni 10:16)

** When referring to the gifts of the Spirit, Moroni seems to make a seperation between langauges and tongues. **

Do you really want to claim that speaking in "tongues" is NOT a "language"?

I thought it was supposed to be the "language of the spirit"? If it is not a language- Adamic or Swiss or Swahili etc- what is it? You are making MY point that it is "jibberish".

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Do you really want to claim that speaking in "tongues" is NOT a "language"?

I thought it was supposed to be the "language of the spirit"? If it is not a language- Adamic or Swiss or Swahili etc- what is it? You are making MY point that it is "jibberish".

I think you are grasping dear brother.

Just because a tongue may not be something you recognize or can be attributed to a human language, doesn't mean it is "jibberish".

And again it is Moroni, not me, that seems to make the dinstinction between human langauges and tongues.