Something To The Catholic Church

[Saints Alive]

No, this thread isn't about the Roman Catholic Church. Rather the idea prevalent in several mainline churches of a universal catholic church or church of all believers. Is there room in LDS theology for such an idea? Or is the idea of recognizing anything larger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in comdradiction to our claims of priesthood authority?

[Senator]

Or is the idea of recognizing anything larger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in comdradiction to our claims of priesthood authority?

The Church of the Firstborn.

[DH]

The Church of the Firstborn.

Which one? The one founded by Joseph Morris, the one founded by Joel LeBaron, or the one founded by Terrill Dalton?

[Saints Alive]

The Church of the Firstborn.

Does that really apply to those outside of the church though?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No, this thread isn't about the Roman Catholic Church. Rather the idea prevalent in several mainline churches of a universal catholic church or church of all believers. Is there room in LDS theology for such an idea? Or is the idea of recognizing anything larger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in comdradiction to our claims of priesthood authority?

I am not specifically LDS, but I am one who believes in a larger "Church of Jesus Christ", which includes many churches that can trace their authority back to Oliver and Joseph's ordination under the hands of John the Baptizer. I believe, since the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, that the church has been in a scattered state and that baptismal authority is valid in many of the fractions of the original restored church.

[bluebell]

Does that really apply to those outside of the church though?

According to Stephen Robinson, it does.

In his Ensign article about the Church of the Firstborn and the Church of the Devil spoken of in Nephi 13 (and 14?), Robinson teaches that there are members of the Church of the Firstborn in other churches, just as there are members of the Church of the Devil in the LDS church. He says that its not about which church holds your membership, but which one has your heart.

You can search the article up at LDS.org if you want to read the whole thing.

[Senator]

Does that really apply to those outside of the church though?

I believe Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu will have as much access to the Church of the Firstborn as Thomas Spencer Monson.

[thesometimesaint]

We are the only true and living church on the face of earth, and the only one with authority from God to administer it.

[Storm Rider]

_{We believe that all will have the opportunity to receive all the blessings of every priesthood ordinance of Exaltation. Using this as a foundation it is easy to understand and believe that God is actively involved in the lives of all those who have any degree of faith in any degree of truth. The fact that the Church exists does not prevent workings of the Spirit in all places, wherever truth exists and is found. God will bring all to a unity of the faith in his own time and in his own way. What is assured is that Exaltation will be open to all that seek after truth and live by the principles of truth found. Church membership is irrelevant to that process.}

[RobertAC]

_{We believe that all will have the opportunity to receive all the blessings of every priesthood ordinance of Exaltation. Using this as a foundation it is easy to understand and believe that God is actively involved in the lives of all those who have any degree of faith in any degree of truth. The fact that the Church exists does not prevent workings of the Spirit in all places, wherever truth exists and is found. God will bring all to a unity of the faith in his own time and in his own way. What is assured is that Exaltation will be open to all that seek after truth and live by the principles of truth found. Church membership is irrelevant to that process.}

From my non-Mormon perspective, this seems to be the way that church is presenting itself to the larger religious community. It's not referring to other Christian denominations as cursed heathen, but it does see itself as having the restored keys to the Aaronic priesthood. Nothing that I have casually read suggests that LDS takes that position that Catholics and Protestants are non-Christian. In fact, it seems that the church recognizes that it is part of a larger religious community and has taken efforts to build relations with non-Christians as well.

[wenglund]

No, this thread isn't about the Roman Catholic Church. Rather the idea prevalent in several mainline churches of a universal catholic church or church of all believers. Is there room in LDS theology for such an idea? Or is the idea of recognizing anything larger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in comdradiction to our claims of priesthood authority?

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. ; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church..." (1 Nephi 14:10)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

_{We believe that all will have the opportunity to receive all the blessings of every priesthood ordinance of Exaltation. Using this as a foundation it is easy to understand and believe that God is actively involved in the lives of all those who have any degree of faith in any degree of truth. The fact that the Church exists does not prevent workings of the Spirit in all places, wherever truth exists and is found. God will bring all to a unity of the faith in his own time and in his own way. What is assured is that Exaltation will be open to all that seek after truth and live by the principles of truth found. Church membership is irrelevant to that process.}

Not quite. We believe that the process is open to all to accept or reject any/all the blessings that God has to offer. All will have the opportunity to accept of reject baptism and confirmation as members of the Church in this life or the next. Having sole authority for baptism by definition makes all others nonbinding.

Edited November 23, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Saints Alive]

Not quite. We believe that the process is open to all to accept or reject any/all the blessings that God has to offer. All will have the opportunity to accept of reject baptism and confirmation as members of the Church in this life or the next. Having sole authority for baptism by definition makes all others nonbinding.

Right, the idea of a universal church means that other denominations offer valid sacraments. Whereas in LDS theology, all have acess to sacred ordinances even after death, but they must participate in them in order to receive the kingdom of God. A baptized Methodist can convert to an episcopal and still have all the valid ordinances to make it into "catholic" heaven.

[Storm Rider]

Right, the idea of a universal church means that other denominations offer valid sacraments. Whereas in LDS theology, all have acess to sacred ordinances even after death, but they must participate in them in order to receive the kingdom of God. A baptized Methodist can convert to an episcopal and still have all the valid ordinances to make it into "catholic" heaven.

You are missing the point I think. Who has authority is irrelevant; the vast majority of all priesthood ordinances of Exaltation are by proxy. The topic is not about choice, but about how God is bringing about the Eternal Life of his children. Church membership is not primary because of the proxy work done by the saints at God's direction. Finding truth and living it is far more important than church membership. What the Church offers is the most concise, fundamental steps of to Eternal Life. The Church doe NOT have all truth and has never taught that it did; to the contrary, we say to the world to bring their truth and we will refine it, purify it, and enlarge upon it that happiness is found in fullness in this life and the next. As another has already reminded us; there are only two churches; that of the Lamb and that of the Evil. Gods effort is to bring all to a knowledge of the Son of the God. In his wisdom he actively works among his children to teach truth and lead them to greater truth. Unfortunately, we (the collective we, as in all humanity) do a very poor job of living the truths we have been given. It is not surprising that we don't gravitate naturally to greater truths when we do such a poor job.

[Saints Alive]

Storm Rider:

I understand what you are saying. That wasn't really the point I was making. Right or wrong I think the idea of a universal church is admirable, simply because the different denominations may differ slightly on certian doctrines but still are inclusive of each other. Most mainline Protestant churches are in communion with each other; the UMC with the ELCA, the PEC and the UMC, ect. It is both interesting and intriguing to me for some reason. I understand why we cant be that inclusive but I admire that they can.

[thesometimesaint]

Storm Rider:

Whatever the admirable qualities other churches have, and they are many. We are the only one with the authority from God to administer the ordinances of his church here on earth. We are the only one with the keys of the Priesthood. The authority form God to bind in Heaven as it is bound on earth.

D&C 132: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, ^boaths, ^cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and ^dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is ^eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by ^frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this ^gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this ^hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ⁱkeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

[theplains]

Robinson teaches that there are members of the Church of the Firstborn in other churches,

His teaching is not in accordance with the church's institute manual.(page 164).

D&C 76:54. What Is the Church of the Firstborn?

“Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members

of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep all the

commandments of the Lord ...

“The Lord has made it possible for us to become members of the Church of the

Firstborn, by receiving the blessings of the house of the Lord and overcoming all

things. Thus we become heirs, ‘priests, and kings, who have received of his fulness,

and of his glory,’ who shall ‘dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and

ever,’ with full exaltation.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:41–42.)

Certain apostates have taken this sacred name upon themselves, blasphemously

claiming to have met all of these requirements, when they are in fact in a state of

wickedness and rebellion".

According to this definition, even some Latter-day Saints will not be members of

the Church of the Firstborn. Since a Catholic church (or Protestant church) is believed

to not have proper priesthood authority, every ordinance performed therein is invalid

- so they would have no way to exalt a being to reach the requirement.

Regards,

Jim

[Calm]

His teaching is not in accordance with the church's institute manual.(page 164).

D&C 76:54. What Is the Church of the Firstborn?

“Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members

of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep all the

commandments of the Lord ...

“The Lord has made it possible for us to become members of the Church of the

Firstborn, by receiving the blessings of the house of the Lord and overcoming all

things.......

According to this definition, even some Latter-day Saints will not be members of

the Church of the Firstborn. Since a Catholic church (or Protestant church) is believed

to not have proper priesthood authority, every ordinance performed therein is invalid

- so they would have no way to exalt a being to reach the requirement.

Regards,

Jim

He said members of other churches, not the churches themselves. Such members can receive the needed ordinances by proxy. Edited November 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

theplains:

True enough, but we are also the only ones that will be cast into Outer Darkness. Everyone else will receive some type of Glory in Heaven.

[BCSpace]

Is there room in LDS theology for such an idea?

None whatsoever.

Or is the idea of recognizing anything larger than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in contradiction to our claims of priesthood authority?

It is. The LDS Church represents the entire set of the Church of Christ.

[williamsmith]

Yes, Mormonism is a "Universalistic" religion as well as Authoritative in the same sense that Christ is universal as well as authoritative.

The Church and God has always recognized that all righteousness, goodness, light, truth, etc. comes only from God, therefore, no matter the person, no matter the place, no matter the religion, in as much as that person is and does those things, then that person is of the Church of the Firstborn.

Further, our Temple Ordinances make clear that all who are of God will accept and qualify for those ordinances and thus will live with God in the Celestial Kingdom.

Christ himself also made clear in Matthew 18, Mark 9, Luke 9, etc. that we are not to offend other believers that are as children to us, and not with the Church as us, for they also are HIS.

Latter-day scripture also makes clear that we are to contend against no Church, save the Church of the Devil. In other words, Churches are not the biggest problem in God's eyes, but wickedness, evil, wrong, perversion, etc. After all, in the end God will balance the books when the Book of Life is opened and we are judged thereby according to our works. He never say's in any scripture that we are judged according to by what religion we were in, philosophy we followed etc.. Being in the Lords literal Church is a privilege and an honor to be lights unto the world for his fullness, truths, and ways. That privilege has never meant the rest are going to hell and/or will remain there.

Thus, there most certainly IS a form of "Universalism" theology within Mormonism. The irony is that many of those who claim to be "universalistic" are the least universalistic of all in their anti-mormonism. They won't pray with us, are so offended by our existance that they do everything they can to destroy us, etc.

Edited November 24, 2012 by williamsmith

[williamsmith]

None whatsoever.

It is. The LDS Church represents the entire set of the Church of Christ.

Both wrong and right, see above.

[bluebell]

His teaching is not in accordance with the church's institute manual.(page 164).

D&C 76:54. What Is the Church of the Firstborn?

“Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members

of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep all the

commandments of the Lord ...

“The Lord has made it possible for us to become members of the Church of the

Firstborn, by receiving the blessings of the house of the Lord and overcoming all

things. Thus we become heirs, ‘priests, and kings, who have received of his fulness,

and of his glory,’ who shall ‘dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and

ever,’ with full exaltation.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:41–42.)

Certain apostates have taken this sacred name upon themselves, blasphemously

claiming to have met all of these requirements, when they are in fact in a state of

wickedness and rebellion".

According to this definition, even some Latter-day Saints will not be members of

the Church of the Firstborn. Since a Catholic church (or Protestant church) is believed

to not have proper priesthood authority, every ordinance performed therein is invalid

- so they would have no way to exalt a being to reach the requirement.

Regards,

Jim

My mistake. Robinson is referring the Church of the Lamb of God.

From the January 1988 Ensign:

"In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records."

[BCSpace]

None whatsoever.

It is. The LDS Church represents the entire set of the Church of Christ.

Both wrong and right, see above.

I can appreciate the nuance. However, the church of the Devil is a property of all nonLDS churches by definition. In addition, we see from D&C 76 that only those who join themselves to the LDS Church here or in the afterlife (and noting that the LDS Church is the restored ancient Church) receive a degree of glory higher than the Telestial. Notice the placement of good christian churches in vs. 99-101.

Edited November 24, 2012 by BCSpace

[bluebell]

I can appreciate the nuance. However, the church of the Devil is a property of all nonLDS churches by definition.

No it's not.