volgadon Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Hamas turned to armed conflict after the Israeli economic blocade, and refusal to enter into negotiations for a peaceful settlement.You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?Hamas has been involved in armed conflict since its very inception in 1987. 2
CV75 Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 political mismanagementAre there any long-term examples of political management by anyone in any nation? Any relationship involving the exercise of human authority and power that is not in line with God's way of doing things will eventually find things botched up (D&C 121:37) This is why those from among all nations will fight against the Lord (1 Nephi 14:13) and the wicked punish the wicked (Mormon 4:5).
Rob Osborn Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I may not wholly understand the issues but arent the palestinians the ones who sided with war to destroy Israel decades ago and then became displaced when Israel won the war and Egypt wouldnt accept the group into their nation? Now, the Gaza Strip has become the harbor or mechanism to keep the fire fueled for further antisemetic rhetoric alive and well to destroy Israel. Israel has played extremely nice. Now its time to go in and clean up a bit. 1
Damien the Leper Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Volgadon,Am I completely off-base when I draw on the comparison of Hamas to Haman? This is a disaster...
thesometimesaint Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Rob:No. Under British rule. The whole area was called Transjordan. With Israel successful statehood the Palestinians were displaced.
Nathair/|\ Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I think I'm mostly going to stay out of this thread, as I don't want the discussion to become too political or heated, but I will say that the notion that Hamas was a happy, democratically elected party that only turned to terrorism after Israel's dislike of their political platform resulted in a terrible economic blockade is one of the sillier, simplistic, and ignorant views I have read in years.I was told, and I think it's relevant to the discussion, that Israel did not come in as conquerors, but bought and paid for the land they are on. Do you know if this is true?
Nathair/|\ Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I think I'm mostly going to stay out of this thread, as I don't want the discussion to become too political or heated, but I will say that the notion that Hamas was a happy, democratically elected party that only turned to terrorism after Israel's dislike of their political platform resulted in a terrible economic blockade is one of the sillier, simplistic, and ignorant views I have read in years.I was told, and I think it's relevant to the discussion, that Israel did not come in as conquerors, but bought and paid for the land they are on. Do you know if this is true?
thesometimesaint Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Menachem Begin (help·info) (Hebrew: מְנַחֵם בֵּגִין, Polish: Mieczysław Biegun, Russian: Менахем Вольфович Бегин Menakhem Vol'fovich Begin, 16 August 1913 – 9 March 1992) was an Israeli politician, founder of Likud and the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel. Before independence, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.[1]
Nathair/|\ Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Menachem Begin (help·info) (Hebrew: מְנַחֵם בֵּגִין, Polish: Mieczysław Biegun, Russian: Менахем Вольфович Бегин Menakhem Vol'fovich Begin, 16 August 1913 – 9 March 1992) was an Israeli politician, founder of Likud and the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel. Before independence, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.[1]I'd revolt against the British too.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I was told, and I think it's relevant to the discussion, that Israel did not come in as conquerors, but bought and paid for the land they are on. Do you know if this is true?It's only partly true. Pre-1947 Jews purchased land. In the 1948 and 1967 wars, they conquered land by military force.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 A plague on both your houses.It is by the wicked that the wicked are punished. 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I'd revolt against the British too.[media=] We in the US already did in 1776.
volgadon Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I was told, and I think it's relevant to the discussion, that Israel did not come in as conquerors, but bought and paid for the land they are on. Do you know if this is true?Some was bought, some was taken over after several wars.
volgadon Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Rob:No. Under British rule. The whole area was called Transjordan. With Israel successful statehood the Palestinians were displaced.Only the part to the east of the Jordan river was called Transjordan.
volgadon Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Volgadon,Am I completely off-base when I draw on the comparison of Hamas to Haman? This is a disaster...Linguistically? Not related.Typologically? I've heard comparisons.
BCSpace Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I'm interested in hearing the perspectives of various members of the Church on recent events involving Israel and Gaza, as well as Israel's history as a state. How do you view the state of Israel? What do you think of its policies and actions over the years?I think generally they have bent over backwards to make peace with their neighbors and are realizing that this is now ultimately impossible given the state of Islam today. The are smart not to allow a return and to fight beyond the various UN partition/agreements and other treaties for defensible borders. This is especially important since, with the US now supporting the Muslim Brotherhood takeover in Egypt and elsewhere.Those in Israel who advocate land for peace etc., if they ever gained power long enough to implement it, will be responsible for and oversee the destruction of Israel and the wholesale slaughter of it's population.How does your theological understanding of Israel influence your views (if at all)?That they have the theological right to the land. I believe they have acted as good stewards.What role do you think the state of Israel has to play in future events (not obscure quotations from Isaiah or Revelation, but modern descriptions)?The conflict will never end until one side destroys the other. That because of the status quo, which will remain even with the change in Arab governments, which prevents any other other solution as well as preventing the situation from coming to that point.Something that would change the dynamics quickly, and be more likely to lead to peace imho, is the change in status of Palestinian refugees. Currently, all refugees around the world generally have avenues and the legal ability to establish new lives in new places. However, the UN along with the Arab League and tacit US and European support essentially disallows most Palestinian refugees and their descendants from leaving their camps and establishing new lives. This so they can remain as political footballs in the Arab world; an issue to divert the attention of local populaces away from their own problems and dictatorial governments.
blackstrap Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 The Berlin Wall will never be torn down.There will never be peace in Northern Ireland.There is no solution the to Israeli/Palestinian problem.Even the Gordian Knot was removed so hope springs eternal.That said,if someone breaks into my house and kills my child ,I am not going to stop chasing them when I get to the edge of my property.The movie Taken comes to mind.
Rob Osborn Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 I founda goodarticle over at FLAME that discusses the issue briefly-http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_114.htmlI totally agree with Israel and their wanting to utterly and completely dismantle Hamas which is an organized terrorist group. What do you think would happen here in America if Al Qaida totally infiltrated Cuba and were then launching missiles into America and killing innocent civilians? We would reign down armaggedon on that poor country I guarentee it. The Palestinians have rejected every call for treaty and peace with Israel. They want to see Israel destroyed and they fully support every terrorist act that they themselves instigate to keep Israel living in fear. Its time for us and Israel to clean house!
rpn Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 Daniel Peterson's book "Abraham Divided" is a really good overview of the claims of both sides. I don't think the historical promises to the Jews means we should politically support Israel: what they do to ordinary palestinians is just wrong a lot of the time, as is their insistence on new homes in the west bank and the infamous wall that separates families from their communities is simply wrongheaded. But every country has the right, even obligation, to defend itself against rockets and bombs and other forms of violence. And it is pretty hard to negotiate a peace with a group(s) who condemn one's right to exist at all. It doesn't help that Palestinans keep choosing radical leadership.
Bill Hamblin Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) The Book of Mormon clearly describes the gather of Israel to occur after they come unto Christ, not before. The fact that the Palestinians have behaved idiotically and abominably does not mean they don't deserve to have their own state, secure borders, their human rights respected, etc. Just reverse the situation. Imagine that the Palestinians had won the 1948 war, and the Jews were reduced to the "Tel Aviv Strip" where a couple of million Jews lived in abject poverty, economically and politically oppressed by the Palestinians who regularly assassinated their rulers, bombed the Tel Aviv Strip, military occupied the Tel Aviv Strip on a regular basis, and killed 30-50 Jews for every Palestinian killed by Jewish terrorists. (Yes, there were indeed Jewish terrorists back in the 1940s.) Would we be calling on the Jews to submit and cease resisting and agree to permanently live under these conditions? Edited November 20, 2012 by Bill Hamblin 2
Bill Hamblin Posted November 20, 2012 Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) By the way, there are plenty of Israelis who deny the right of the Palestinians to their own homeland. There are parties with Knesset members whose platform is explicit about expelling the Palestinians from the West Bank. Why do radical Israelis get to deny the right of the Palestinians to exist?Like I say, a plague on both their houses. Edited November 20, 2012 by Bill Hamblin 1
BCSpace Posted November 21, 2012 Posted November 21, 2012 I don't necessarily like Kadima, but I think Ariel Sharon's support for the barrier and disengagement has been the best way to go; cutting off the Palestinians from Israel and forcing them to try and govern their own. Iron Dome is accomplishing the same right now. The Palestinian's absolute failure to do so because of their insistence on destroying Israel rather than building a nation has revealed to the world how corrupt and unworthy of power those who lead in the West Bank and Gaza really are. Of course there are many in the world who aren't intelligent enough to see it or because of their own corruption can't afford to see it.I do support the Likud's stance on the right of settlement and not just for theological reasons but for practical and other reasons such as (along with the barrier) creating defensible borders.
The Nehor Posted November 21, 2012 Posted November 21, 2012 I think generally they have bent over backwards to make peace with their neighbors and are realizing that this is now ultimately impossible given the state of Islam today. I am not sure how anyone could consider the embargo in place against Palestine bending over backwards to make peace.
Kemara Posted November 21, 2012 Posted November 21, 2012 I just watched a news report where there are rumors that a cease fire will shortly be negotiated. A television crew interviewed a young Palestian girl about the ceasfire and she said that she hopes the cease fire happens, she just wants there to be peace, she doesnt want to be frightened any more. A shot was then taken of several young Israeli girls sheltering behind a building trying to comfort one another as the sounds of war echoed around them. When things like that are going on I could care less about who did what to whom, and who is to blame for this or that. I would hope that everyone on this board, (saint sinner critic mormon non-mormon anti-mormon less active mormon athiest agnostic etc) would agree that the first step, the very best course of action right now, is for everyone to put down their guns. 2
volgadon Posted November 21, 2012 Posted November 21, 2012 I just watched a news report where there are rumors that a cease fire will shortly be negotiated. A television crew interviewed a young Palestian girl about the ceasfire and she said that she hopes the cease fire happens, she just wants there to be peace, she doesnt want to be frightened any more. A shot was then taken of several young Israeli girls sheltering behind a building trying to comfort one another as the sounds of war echoed around them. When things like that are going on I could care less about who did what to whom, and who is to blame for this or that. I would hope that everyone on this board, (saint sinner critic mormon non-mormon anti-mormon less active mormon athiest agnostic etc) would agree that the first step, the very best course of action right now, is for everyone to put down their guns.I agree, and I really don't want a ground action, but rumours of ceasfires have been vastly exaggerated.
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