101-103: Dr. Ted Lyon On Lds Church Change, Latin American Missions, Lds Membership Statistics, And Thoughtful Faith

[Tacenda]

For those of you who would like to discuss mission experiences having to do with quicky baptisms. Do any of you think that the missionaries, actually Mission Presidents most of all, should back off on the numbers game?

Was the Chile incident the last straw and have these experiences been totally eradicated?

http://mormonstories...=chile baptisms

Edited November 14, 2012 by Tacenda

[Saints Alive]

It's the old qaulity vs quantity game. A better question would be: is it better to accept the gospel and be baptized in this life and later become inactive; or is it better to reject the gospel in this life and acceptit in the afterlife?

[Mark Beesley]

For those of you who would like to discuss mission experiences having to do with quicky baptisms. Do any of you think that the missionaries, actually Mission Presidents most of all, should back off on the numbers game?

Was the Chile incident the last straw and have these experiences been totally eradicated?

http://mormonstories...=chile baptisms

A much more interesting and edifying part of Brother Lyon's contribution to Mormon Stories is his description of how he deals with doubts that he may have about any particular aspect having to do with the restored Gospel. He describes reading the Book of Mormon, and while reading one particular section, he received that unmistakable assurance for the Holy Ghost that it was true. That this truly was a record of an ancient civilization, not a product of Joseph Smith's mind. This pivotal moment in his live has informed every other conclusion he has had to reach regarding the restored Gospel. When there were troubling aspects or doubts that arose, he went back to this experience he had while reading the Book of Mormon, and simply says to himself, I don't know about this other stuff, but I do know what is true so I'm not going to worry about the other stuff.

I guess I like Bro. Lyon's description because it is nearly identical to my own approach. I had a comparable experience listening to Bro. Truman Madsen's lectures on the Prophet Joseph Smith. Ever since then, I have been confident about what I know. Stuff I don't know, things I can't explain and/or didn't witness, I don't worry about.

If some mission president or some missionaries engaged in practices to inflate baptism numbers, that is probably rare and unfortunate, but I wasn't there, I never saw that on my mission, and it does not, in any way, diminish the power of the testimony of the Holy Ghost that I was gifted, so why even focus on that other stuff?

That's my take anyway.

[Judd]

Tacenda, you're asking a loaded question when you say "should mission presidents back off the numbers game". My own personal experiences on my mission in no way resemble those stories, nor was there a 'numbers game' going on. Of people that I interact with, my mission compares largely to theirs in those regards. Do you have any personal experience otherwise that this rings true church-wide or are you superimposing this experience on anyone who says there's 'pressure to baptize' or none of the above?

[Duncan]

My mission must have been the exception becuase it was to most it was a HUGE numbers game and popularity contest. I don't want to get into all the details but unethical things went on i'll name two: In July of 1996 our mission (I wasn't there then) batized 400 people yet only about 50 were taught all six discussions. I came home in April of 2000 and in Nov. of that year a comp. of mine told me that two elders were sent home for faking baptismal certificates and sending them into the mission office.

[Mark Beesley]

My mission must have been the exception becuase it was to most it was a HUGE numbers game and popularity contest. I don't want to get into all the details but unethical things went on i'll name two: In July of 1996 our mission (I wasn't there then) batized 400 people yet only about 50 were taught all six discussions. I came home in April of 2000 and in Nov. of that year a comp. of mine told me that two elders were sent home for faking baptismal certificates and sending them into the mission office.

Sounds like a lot of hearsay. Might be better if you amended your post by saying, I heard that . . ., since you weren't there.

[Duncan]

Sounds like a lot of hearsay. Might be better if you amended your post by saying, I heard that . . ., since you weren't there.

point taken! I heard it from a comp who was there and then my Mission President who stated as such in a zone conference, but yes I wasn't there

[Tacenda]

I think you get all kinds. I was wondering if there is any protocol out there to reign in overzealous MP. I believe it shouldn't be psychologically damaging to any missionary, like some of the stories I've come across. Since one of the main reasons for a mission, I've heard it said, is for the missionary themselves.

[Duncan]

I think you get all kinds. I was wondering if there is any protocol out there to reign in overzealous MP. I believe it shouldn't be psychologically damaging to any missionary, like some of the stories I've come across. Since one of the main reasons for a mission, I've heard it said, is for the missionary themselves.

oh let me tellya. In Spring of 1999 my Companion's father didn't like how things were being run, I was babysitting his son as I did other troubled missionaries (some good, some not) anyways the dad flew to SLC from Florida to try and get the MP released. the MP caught wind of what happened and sent my comp. home but he didn't actually go home. You have to have area pres. approval to do that which the MP didn't have. What a mess all that was. Another guy in my mission didn't like one of the APs and got a petition going around with about 25 or so signatures (my comp. at the time was approached but he buried the hatchet with this fella) well, the petition was sent.

Sparks flew

Edited November 15, 2012 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

oh let me tellya. In Spring of 1999 my Companion's father didn't like how things were being run, I was babysitting his son as I did other troubled missionaries (some good, some not) anyways the dad flew to SLC from Florida to try and get the MP released. the MP caught wind of what happened and sent my comp. home but he didn't actually go home. You have to have area pres. approval to do that which the MP didn't have. What a mess all that was. Another guy in my mission didn't like one of the APs and got a petition going around with about 25 or so signatures (my comp. at the time was approached but he buried the hatchet with this fella) well, the petition was sent.

Sparks flew

I can only imagine.

[bcuzbcuz]

oh let me tellya. In Spring of 1999 my Companion's father didn't like how things were being run, I was babysitting his son as I did other troubled missionaries (some good, some not) anyways the dad flew to SLC from Florida to try and get the MP released. the MP caught wind of what happened and sent my comp. home but he didn't actually go home. You have to have area pres. approval to do that which the MP didn't have. What a mess all that was. Another guy in my mission didn't like one of the APs and got a petition going around with about 25 or so signatures (my comp. at the time was approached but he buried the hatchet with this fella) well, the petition was sent.

Sparks flew

We didn't have the numbers game on baptisms, simply because no one would ever believe that a large number of Swedes would accept any religion, let alone an American one. Knocking on doors from 9 in the morning till 9 at night, with one hour for food breaks (not to be taken back at the flat), cold contacting, as it is called, would result in approximately one door contact per day and a few first lessons given per week.

When numbers went down, like from 5 to zero, it was not surprising if we met up with DLs or ZLs who "just happened to be in the area". Spying was rampant. Most elders just fluffed up their numbers to keep everything 'peaceful and quiet'.

I couldn't even baptize the woman who would become the mother of our six children, talk about poor door-side manner. lol

[Duncan]

We didn't have the numbers game on baptisms, simply because no one would ever believe that a large number of Swedes would accept any religion, let alone an American one. Knocking on doors from 9 in the morning till 9 at night, with one hour for food breaks (not to be taken back at the flat), cold contacting, as it is called, would result in approximately one door contact per day and a few first lessons given per week.

When numbers went down, like from 5 to zero, it was not surprising if we met up with DLs or ZLs who "just happened to be in the area". Spying was rampant. Most elders just fluffed up their numbers to keep everything 'peaceful and quiet'.

I couldn't even baptize the woman who would become the mother of our six children, talk about poor door-side manner. lol

one of my good friends is a Swedish member! I have a funny story regarding the Swedish Mission but I am listening to Joan Jett right now and I have this thing to do tonite and when the song and the thing is done I will tell ya about it! (not to derail the thread)

[Tacenda]

I do recall in the movie "The Best Two Year's" (one of the best LDS movies, IMO) that they had to report very specifically how many "book of mormons", wait, "books of mormon" (a scene in the movie) they handed out, etc. It is quite the thing all that missionaries learn in the mission field. I envy the managerial experiences too. All of it, I envy. One day maybe I'll get the chance to do some kind of service mission, not something that is in the area of church administration but out in a third world country or an inner city project possibly.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

We didn't have the numbers game on baptisms, simply because no one would ever believe that a large number of Swedes would accept any religion, let alone an American one. Knocking on doors from 9 in the morning till 9 at night, with one hour for food breaks (not to be taken back at the flat), cold contacting, as it is called, would result in approximately one door contact per day and a few first lessons given per week.

When numbers went down, like from 5 to zero, it was not surprising if we met up with DLs or ZLs who "just happened to be in the area". Spying was rampant. Most elders just fluffed up their numbers to keep everything 'peaceful and quiet'.

I couldn't even baptize the woman who would become the mother of our six children, talk about poor door-side manner. lol

So, as promised, the Swedish story. We met this lady whilst in the mission field and she was a member. We had a DA with her and her family. I think this happened in the 60's or 70's but the Swedish mission had almost no baptisms and the mission leaders were wondering how to change that. So this lady's brother was over there serving and they had a mutual friend who met the missionaries in the US. He took the discussions and wanted to join but he I can't recall why but had to move to Sweden immediately for whatever reason. So, this fella basically walked into the Swedish Mission Office and requested baptism. So the Mission President from then on was hammering on saying 'you can't tell me you can find anyone to teach and baptize, why we have people walking in off the street requesting baptism!' So, this poor elder over in sweden didn't say that yeah well this bloke is a friend of mine and yadda yadda yadda!-So, that's my Sweden mission story in all its glory!

[Tacenda]

That story was worth waiting for Duncan! That MP probably got a laugh out of that one.

[Tacenda]

We didn't have the numbers game on baptisms, simply because no one would ever believe that a large number of Swedes would accept any religion, let alone an American one. Knocking on doors from 9 in the morning till 9 at night, with one hour for food breaks (not to be taken back at the flat), cold contacting, as it is called, would result in approximately one door contact per day and a few first lessons given per week.

When numbers went down, like from 5 to zero, it was not surprising if we met up with DLs or ZLs who "just happened to be in the area". Spying was rampant. Most elders just fluffed up their numbers to keep everything 'peaceful and quiet'.

I couldn't even baptize the woman who would become the mother of our six children, talk about poor door-side manner. lol

Maybe the Sweden mission should go the way of being more a service mission by helping in shelters, hospitals, nursing homes etc. I think it might even crack the Swedes hard shell of non acceptance of some religions.

Congrats on meeting your bride on your mission, I'm sure there's a great story there!

[Storm Rider]

I have found over and over again in life that if we want to find the black lining in the silver cloud we will find it if we can just keep looking long enough for it. Conversely, we can find the silver lining if that is what we are seeking. The Church and every mission is made of people; people can do some pretty stupid things. If ever in doubt just look in a mirror and remember all of the doozies that person has done. At the end of the day, there is only person that has to reflect on your life and determine if you have done your best and that is you. It is not a Bishop, a Stake President, a Mission President, the Prophet or anyone else. We are on responsible for our own actions and our own choices. Sometimes leaders do and ask for some pretty lame things. Regardless of what they ask for we are still responsible for our own choices. At the end of the day I am also convinced that God can take all of the mistakes and weak effort that I do and still bring about his will upon the earth. He takes the weakest of us and makes great things happen. I also have to acknowledge what type of person I want to be; one that looks for the silver lining or one that does not. Regardless of my choice I will find what I am looking for.

[Freedom]

I shared this experience privately with Tacenda and she asked that I post it here, but I want to point out that this is a clear exception to the rule and has only occurred once in my lifetime:

I recall being transferred to an area and the other companionship that was there (4 elders shared an apartment had just lost a 'golden' investigator. They received a note that was hard to decipher it being in a colloquial form of spanish non of us understood well. Once we translated it, it gave the impression that they did not want to see the elders again. My memory fails me, but I believe a few weeks later, we went with a ward mission leader to have one more kick at the can. To make a long story short, it was all a great misunderstanding. That same day, the spanish branch we attended was having a ward conference starting on the saturday and finishing on the Sunday. This couple attended church for the first time and that Saturday night they bore the most powerful testimony I had ever heard to date in my life (being the ripe old age of 20). The mission president, stake president, and other area leaders were in attendance and invited them to be baptized the next day. Although they were not my investigator, I went to teach them because my spanish was better then the other elders. We taught them all 6 lessons, attended church and baptized them that evening.

A year later, while i was about to finish my mission, he was called to be the branch president. He later served in the high council and his wife went on to be a fantastic leader in the church.

This was the exception to the rule, but it was right for them.

[bcuzbcuz]

Congrats on meeting your bride on your mission, I'm sure there's a great story there!

Thank you and yes there is but I've already derailed this OP enough. It will all come out in my "tell all" life story. lol