Boy Do We Need Common Sense, Please

[saemo]

If I were home today when he posted, I would definitely have posted a strong objection. But, guess what happened. You posted something with far nastier wording. Should you expect people to call Scott on it, but not you?

Did you ever stop to think I was giving him, in return, a similar stereotype that he was dishing out? An object lesson? If you continue to read, you will see that I pointed out my remark was sarcastic.

But whatever. I am the apostate and so of course have evil intentions at all times!

Silly Mormons.

[volgadon]

Did you ever stop to think I was giving him, in return, a similar stereotype that he was dishing out? An object lesson? If you continue to read, you will see that I pointed out my remark was sarcastic.

Right, where you called it an observation, rather than a cheap shot, even if you admitted to sarcastic delivery.

So, not a cheap shot, but an observation delivered (perhaps too) sarcastically.

So, you want to go after Scott for such a comment, but share an observation on Mormons as incapable of independent thinking. A mere object lesson, I see.

But whatever. I am the apostate and so of course have evil intentions at all times!

You are welcome to your self-definition.

Silly Mormons.

As someone said, whatever, right?

[saemo]

Right, where you called it an observation, rather than a cheap shot, even if you admitted to sarcastic delivery.

So, you want to go after Scott for such a comment, but share an observation on Mormons as incapable of independent thinking. A mere object lesson, I see.

You are welcome to your self-definition.

As someone said, whatever, right?

OK, for the record, I don't believe all Mormons think alike, or are incapable of critical thinking. I however, am capable of using words as rocks. Seems to be built into me somehow. So I apologize for throwing rocks.

[volgadon]

OK, for the record, I don't believe all Mormons think alike, or are incapable of critical thinking.

Ok.

I however, am capable of using words as rocks. Seems to be built into me somehow. So I apologize for throwing rocks.

I think most people are cable of using words to hurt and insult. It seems built into man in general. I'm definitely not as much an exception to that as I would like.

Edited September 25, 2012 by volgadon

[MormonMason]

Sorry, I've heard too many stories from LDS regarding Catholics to not be skeptical.

I once lived in a place where a Catholic priest was telling parishioners that Mormons grow horns and wings at midnight. Some of the local Catholics were scared out of their wits to associate with Mormons for a while. Then, one day a local Mormon teenager decided to pay some Catholics a visit a few minutes after midnight. He even removed his shirt so that they could see that he had no wings. It was pretty funny. And, yes, I lived in the neighborhood and was aware of it all.

But, then again, some of the old Catholics are good for such rumors as the above. Leo Taxil was one of the best examples before he was caught and his ruse damaged the Catholic Church's credibility for a time. He wanted to make the Masons look bad for ejecting him from their Order and wanted to embarrass the Catholic Church by duping them into believing that Masons secretly worshipped the Devil.

He got his desires. Even to this day a good number of people still believe the hoax named after Taxil, even after the hoax was exposed. Since that time the Roman Catholic Church officially has long been opposed to members of their Church being members of the Masonic Order. Part of the reason is that the Vatican still seems to believe much of the hoax to this day.

Having seen and experienced firsthand the kinds of rumors bandied about by some Catholic clergy, I'm inclined to believe KevinG rather than be cynical.

[saemo]

I once lived in a place where a Catholic priest was telling parishioners that Mormons grow horns and wings at midnight. Some of the local Catholics were scared out of their wits to associate with Mormons for a while. Then, one day a local Mormon teenager decided to pay some Catholics a visit a few minutes after midnight. He even removed his shirt so that they could see that he had no wings. It was pretty funny. And, yes, I lived in the neighborhood and was aware of it all.

But, then again, some of the old Catholics are good for such rumors as the above. Leo Taxil was one of the best examples before he was caught and his ruse damaged the Catholic Church's credibility for a time. He wanted to make the Masons look bad for ejecting him from their Order and wanted to embarrass the Catholic Church by duping them into believing that Masons secretly worshipped the Devil.

He got his desires. Even to this day a good number of people still believe the hoax named after Taxil, even after the hoax was exposed. Since that time the Roman Catholic Church officially has long been opposed to members of their Church being members of the Masonic Order. Part of the reason is that the Vatican still seems to believe much of the hoax to this day.

Having seen and experienced firsthand the kinds of rumors bandied about by some Catholic clergy, I'm inclined to believe KevinG rather than be cynical.

Lol. Thanks for confirming my skepticism.

[why me]

But whatever. I am the apostate and so of course have evil intentions at all times!

Silly Mormons.

I think that you are projecting onto yourself something that many do not consider you are. I just think that you are misinformed about the case. I posted links to his blogs which show that he may have expected trouble for what he was doing by attempting to get members to have doubts. But you have not acknowledged reading these postings.

I think that the point is quite simple. No church can permit a member to actively lead others away. The catholic church would not let a priest actively lead people away from church dogma. He would eventually be defrocked. Would it be proper to say 'silly catholics' for doing so?

And I do believe that even the apostle paul was aware of people in the church causing division. He needed to act strongly about this in letter. What did he say? The church needed to be of one mind.

[why me]

Lol. Thanks for confirming my skepticism.

We all should be skeptics, even you...when reading about mormonism in the press. No church can have people sowing disharmony in its ranks. And the way churches handle these problems may be a tad different but the dissenters are usually sent packing. No catholic bishop would be allowed to be critical of the pope and adopt doctrine that is opposed by the catechism. Neither would a nun be permitted to do so.

[MormonMason]

Lol. Thanks for confirming my skepticism.

I was there so I know what I am talking about. You, on the other hand, weren't. But, believe whatever you want. It is a free world but remember that denial is not a river in Egypt.

And, on the subject of hoaxes, research the Taxil Hoax and also Humanum Genus. Those two happenstances were the ideal examples of rumormongering and promotion of misunderstanding among certain groups of Catholics.

Edited September 25, 2012 by MormonMason

[3DOP]

Any word on the Catholic Church's response to the shocking speech given by the daughter of that Catholic politician at the last Democrat Convention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hi Wade. I haven't heard about what you are talking about. I have started voting again...civic duty and all that. But I don't follow the news. So Caroline said something against the Catholic Church at the Democratic Convention? I would be shocked if she said something in favor of the Catholic Church! I'm old enough to have a soft spot for the Kennedys. I feel bad for Caroline. Something seems to have drawn the family away from their faith. I don't know what happened. Great wealth brings great troubles. They are old Irish Catholics and that makes funerals and weddings and baptisms and first communions a cultural thing for them. But I don't think any of them who express public opinions take Church teaching seriously.

3DOP

[3DOP]

Hi Mormon Mason.

Maybe this important question about wings and horns on Mormons will be decided officially by the Catholic Church at some future date? That some Mormon teenager takes off his shirt is no proof that you are always without wings and horns. You can probably make them appear and disappear at will.

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this development of Catholic doctrine.

3DOP

[Storm Rider]

Hi Mormon Mason.

Maybe this important question about wings and horns on Mormons will be decided officially by the Catholic Church at some future date? That some Mormon teenager takes off his shirt is no proof that you are always without wings and horns. You can probably make them appear and disappear at will.

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this development of Catholic doctrine.

3DOP

We have actually gotten very proficient at hiding our horns. We can make them appear to flow with our hair; quite remarkable really. Fortunately, not many of us have to deal with halos like our good brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church. Where we all suffer is the behavior part of things; it is always a dead give away and is a sure sign of those that actually have horns or halos.

[saemo]

I think that you are projecting onto yourself something that many do not consider you are. I just think that you are misinformed about the case. I posted links to his blogs which show that he may have expected trouble for what he was doing by attempting to get members to have doubts. But you have not acknowledged reading these postings.

I think that the point is quite simple. No church can permit a member to actively lead others away. The catholic church would not let a priest actively lead people away from church dogma. He would eventually be defrocked. Would it be proper to say 'silly catholics' for doing so?

And I do believe that even the apostle paul was aware of people in the church causing division. He needed to act strongly about this in letter. What did he say? The church needed to be of one mind.

Honestly, I don't really care who Mormons keep or discard. I had read of this on the SL Tribune, and was curious to how Mormons viewed the goings on. I can see, from the Mormon POV, there are no goings on. Can't say whether I agree with that POV or not, because I don't have all the information and never will. It doesn't change my views about Romney.

Paul, as far as I know, never excommunicated anyone. Peter did, when he cast out Simon Magus, but that wasn't for what he taught, but for believing the gift of the Holy Spirit was a type of magical power that he needed to possess. I don't see a comparison there to the topic at hand, at all.

As for how Mormonism views those of us who left, it isn't some great mind reading I'm doing, or projecting. I can read.

Edited September 25, 2012 by saemo

[ERayR]

Hi Mormon Mason.

Maybe this important question about wings and horns on Mormons will be decided officially by the Catholic Church at some future date? That some Mormon teenager takes off his shirt is no proof that you are always without wings and horns. You can probably make them appear and disappear at will.

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this development of Catholic doctrine.

3DOP

Being an old farm boy one spring when working cattle I just used the dehorner on myself so I no longer have the head adornment.

[why me]

Honestly, I don't really care who Mormons keep or discard. I had read of this on the SL Tribune, and was curious to how Mormons viewed the goings on. I can see, from the Mormon POV, there are no goings on. Can't say whether I agree with that POV or not, because I don't have all the information and never will. It doesn't change my views about Romney.

I posted two sections from his blogs which had nothing to do with Romney but with attempting to 'educate' mormons at church about the 'hidden' truths of mormonism. It was very clear what he was doing according to the blog posts. This is the story and not a Romney take on it. Harry Reid is critical of Romney and he is fine. No problems with his membership. However, if one attempts to lead people away, one will have a problem.

I also pointed out to you that no priest or bishop in the catholic faith would be allowed to lead catholics away from catholic doctrine. Here is a case in point:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=15581

And then we have this from wiki:

Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre (29 November 1905 – 25 March 1991) was a French Roman Catholic archbishop. Following a career as an Apostolic Delegate for West Africa and Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers, he took the lead in opposing the changes within the Church associated with the Second Vatican Council.

In 1970, Lefebvre founded the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). In 1988, against the express prohibition of Pope John Paul II, he consecrated four bishops to continue his work with the SSPX. The Holy See immediately declared that he and the other bishops who had participated in the ceremony had incurred automatic excommunication under Catholic canon law.^{[Notes 1]}

So, I have two cases of excommunication for leading the flock away from catholic doctrine. See my point? Like I said, all churches have ways for dealing with heretics and apostates.

[why me]

Paul, as far as I know, never excommunicated anyone. Peter did, when he cast out Simon Magus, but that wasn't for what he taught, but for believing the gift of the Holy Spirit was a type of magical power that he needed to possess. I don't see a comparison there to the topic at hand, at all.

What does this mean from Paul:

1 Corinthians 5:1–13

Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church

5 It is actually reported that there is wsexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, xfor a man has his father’s wife. 2 And yyou are arrogant! Ought you znot rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3 For though aabsent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled bin the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are cto deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so dthat his spirit may be saved ein the day of the Lord.1

6 fYour boasting is not good. Do you not know that ga little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, hnot with the old leaven, ithe leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter jnot to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 knot at all meaning lthe sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, msince then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone nwho bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging ooutsiders? pIs it not those inside the church2 whom you are to judge? 13 God judges3 those outside. q“Purge the evil person from among you.”

What do those verses mean? Can you elaborate?

Edited September 25, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Paul, as far as I know, never excommunicated anyone. Peter did, when he cast out Simon Magus, but that wasn't for what he taught, but for believing the gift of the Holy Spirit was a type of magical power that he needed to possess. I don't see a comparison there to the topic at hand, at all.

As for how Mormonism views those of us who left, it isn't some great mind reading I'm doing, or projecting. I can read.

As a side note, Paul did not write his own letters. He had very bad eyesight and usually dictated his letters. He would walk up and down at times in anger about what was happening in the church. And he dictated very personalized letters which are now scripture. Paul had very little toleration for members who were guilty of serious sin and the impact that these people could have on the church if action was not taken against them. We can see this from the letter that I posted above.

And as a double sidenote, there were some copycats posting letters in the name of paul and these letters were believed by the church. So, Paul still dictated his letters but eventually he would sign his name which were in big letters because of his eyesight. By this way, the church knew that they were genuine.

[why me]

As for how Mormonism views those of us who left, it isn't some great mind reading I'm doing, or projecting. I can read.

You want to believe what you want to believe. But most mormons really don't care that you are now a catholic as long as you do not attack the lds faith. It seems that when exmormons join the catholic faith, they become a little flippy toward mormons as you did above. But if you post posts that are seemed to attack the lds church you will get a reaction. To get a perspective of how exmormons who became catholic view mormons you just need to head over to the catholic site and see the negativity toward the lds church on the mormon threads.

[Scott Lloyd]

You want to believe what you want to believe. But most mormons really don't care that you are now a catholic as long as you do not attack the lds faith.

That definitely applies to me.

It seems that when exmormons join the catholic faith, they become a little flippy toward mormons as you did above.

I have come to expect a fair degree of civility and tolerance from Catholics toward Mormons -- except from Catholics who are former Mormons.

[saemo]

You want to believe what you want to believe. But most mormons really don't care that you are now a catholic as long as you do not attack the lds faith. It seems that when exmormons join the catholic faith, they become a little flippy toward mormons as you did above. But if you post posts that are seemed to attack the lds church you will get a reaction. To get a perspective of how exmormons who became catholic view mormons you just need to head over to the catholic site and see the negativity toward the lds church on the mormon threads.

Therein lies why it is that there will never be meaningful dialogue between us. Expressing a different opinion is an attack. I am not of a personality type that kowtows, sorry. I respect the inherent dignity of each individual to follow their own conscience. But my opinion varies greatly from the Mormon opinion, on most religious topics. I'll leave you with that, as I don't see any reason to continue our conversation.

[Scott Lloyd]

Therein lies why it is that there will never be meaningful dialogue between us. Expressing a different opinion is an attack. I am not of a personality type that kowtows, sorry. I respect the inherent dignity of each individual to follow their own conscience. But my opinion varies greatly from the Mormon opinion, on most religious topics. I'll leave you with that, as I don't see any reason to continue our conversation.

Depending on the nature and validity of the "different opinion" that is expressed, it needs to be addressed and perhaps countered, regardless of whether the person expressing it chooses to engage in dialogue about it.

[saemo]

Depending on the nature and validity of the "different opinion" that is expressed, it needs to be addressed and perhaps countered, regardless of whether the person expressing it chooses to engage in dialogue about it.

Fine, and there was a time I may have been interested in participating. But, I have lost that interest. I think I've discussed Mormonism long enough. I'm more interested in life off line. Relationships, including Mormons, that aren't based on things like this, that really don't matter.

Have a good life Scott Lloyd. You're alright, for a Mormon.

Edited September 25, 2012 by saemo

[why me]

. I'll leave you with that, as I don't see any reason to continue our conversation.

Exactly the tone I expected. Not civil at all.

However, as you can see Paul was quite strong on how he treated members that were not towing the line. One can only guess what happened when the church read Paul's letter that I linked above. I can see many people who were sinning and not repenting shown the door by the church. Of course, you have made no comment about this since it was you that claimed that Paul did not excommunicate anyone....true...but his instructions to the church was clear....

[Scott Lloyd]

Fine, and there was a time I may have been interested in participating. But, I have lost that interest. I think I've discussed Mormonism long enough. I'm more interested in life off line. Relationships, including Mormons, that aren't based on things like this, that really don't matter.

I think that's a wholesome direction to take.

I wish you every good thing.

[saemo]

Exactly the tone I expected. Not civil at all.

However, as you can see Paul was quite strong on how he treated members that were not towing the line. One can only guess what happened when the church read Paul's letter that I linked above. I can see many people who were sinning and not repenting shown the door by the church. Of course, you have made no comment about this since it was you that claimed that Paul did not excommunicate anyone....true...but his instructions to the church was clear....

Good Lord, what tone is that? You must have voices in your head.

You lost my interest when you decided to clarify your position regarding the inspirational nature of scripture, or lack thereof. I can't take you seriously now, can I?

Adios.