Boy Do We Need Common Sense, Please

[Wiki Wonka]

For a while, apparently. From his blog:

• 'It’s funny that the adults are the ones playing pretend at church and the children are being honest. I find myself sighing and eye-rolling at the phrase-tossing of "Book of Mormon" this and "Joseph Smith" that. But I need to play stoic; switch on the poker face, so that, despite the flash of my cloth, I don’t stand out in character. Not yet'.
  
• 'Attending is my cross to bear (one prior editor had to resign quietly when the church came for him, something I may find difficult to forestall in my case)'.
  
• 'I don’t want anyone I meet in person to know I’m associated with, let alone managing editor at, MormonThink. I don't even want Pat to find it serendipitously -- It could get me in a sort of pickle and cut short my church activity'.
  

Ironically, one of his blog posts about the presumed hazards of electing a Latter-day Saint to high public office is entitled 'Secrets breed lies'. Nothing like a bit o' self-delusion ...

My spouse found these comments from his blog downright creepy,

The meetings drag on, though between them in the hallways, I get a number of looks from women. I know these looks and they have no place at church, unless you’re into that sort of thing in this kind of place. I might be...

After the meeting let out, I was cornered by a few members. The theological discussions were rather dull dull, even for me, and I contributed about half of the words. Then there was one of those hallway moments that could convince me that I might be into that sort of thing. She caught me as I was walking out. She was flattering. She liked my shirt. We continued walking and talking all the way to my drive, which is a convertible sports machine that another friend once told me is called a "baja panti" car. I don’t think this woman would know the term, but she might get the meaning by the way she was eyeing both it and me.

Oy vey.

Until next Sunday, when we meet again…

WW

[Hamilton Porter]

Bob Oliverio:

I would agree with you, except that David Twede has been caught admitting that he intends to destroy people's faiths. And that is cause for excommunication. I'm sure if you or I look at the website, we can easily tell that it is a sneaky anti-Mormon site.

[Hamilton Porter]

I bet the hits on his website go up.

It's better that the hits spike than for him to continue masquerading as an active Mormon.

[Walden]

Why do we as a Church do dumb things at the wrong time?

With everything this nation has on the line, and the need to support an incredible candidate who is up against the most biased odds of our national media, why does the Church keep doing the most stupid thing by highlighting the very core issue we need to avoid. Sometime I wonder if any of our leaders ever step back, exercise an ounce of common sense and just THINK before they react!!!

This exposure at the worst time is senseless and just goes to show our own ignorance and stupidity in common sense!!!

Way too much focus on something that should have been a non issue.

http://articles.chic...excommunication

I think the mods need to check to see if Mitt Romney is posting as Bob Oliverio on these boards.

Bob, it is not the job of the LDS church to get Mitt elected. From my understanding, the mission of the LDS church is focused on proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints and redeeming the dead. I'm not sure where you consider "politicking for Mormon political candidates" to fall into that mission, but I just don't see it as part of the church's role.

[shalamabobbi]

I think the mods need to check to see if Mitt Romney is posting as Bob Oliverio on these boards.

Bob, it is not the job of the LDS church to get Mitt elected. From my understanding, the mission of the LDS church is focused on proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints and redeeming the dead. I'm not sure where you consider "politicking for Mormon political candidates" to fall into that mission, but I just don't see it as part of the church's role.

The Campaign

On April 9, 1844, during general conference, the campaign began to take on a unique nature. Brigham Young announced that elders would be called to both “preach the Gospel and electioneer.” 19 During the latter part of the meeting, when President Young called for volunteers to serve these missions, 244 men stepped forward. 20

Additional electioneer missionaries were called, bringing the total to at least 337. On April 15 they were assigned to all 26 states in the Union and to the Wisconsin Territory. 21 Not only the number but also the quality of missionaries called was striking. Ten members of the Quorum of the Twelve—Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, Parley P. Pratt, William Smith, Orson Pratt, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, George A. Smith, and Lyman Wight—served as electioneer missionaries. 22

http://www.lds.org/e...e-united-states

[thesometimesaint]

Walden:

I doubt Mitt even knows this site exists.

I'm open about my politics to my Bishop, Stake President, and High Priests Group. No official from the Church has ever questioned my loyalty to the Church. Then again I don't go on the internet trying to hurt members testimony.

[KevinG]

" She was flattering. She liked my shirt."

Two sisters complemented my tie last Sunday. I had no idea I was such a stud.

[The Nehor]

" She was flattering. She liked my shirt."

Two sisters complemented my tie last Sunday. I had no idea I was such a stud.

I just found another reason to excommunicate this guy....now. What a creeper.

[Walden]

http://www.lds.org/e...e-united-states

Yes, Brigham Young did and said a number of things that have since been disavowed by the LDS church.

[bluebell]

My spouse found these comments from his blog downright creepy,

WW

Oh my....he is delusional. Guys like that are so gross.

[thesometimesaint]

Waldon:

I wouldn't say disavowed. More like putting them in context with the times Brigham lived in. Will there come a time when the Church will feel compelled to take a stand on partisan political issues? Maybe, as we get closer to the time of Jesus' return I expect events in the world will get dire. Now is obviously not that time.

Edited September 24, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Verum]

Why do we as a Church do dumb things at the wrong time?

With everything this nation has on the line, and the need to support an incredible candidate who is up against the most biased odds of our national media, why does the Church keep doing the most stupid thing by highlighting the very core issue we need to avoid. Sometime I wonder if any of our leaders ever step back, exercise an ounce of common sense and just THINK before they react!!!

This exposure at the worst time is senseless and just goes to show our own ignorance and stupidity in common sense!!!

Way too much focus on something that should have been a non issue.

http://articles.chic...excommunication

Bob,

In what circumstances do you think the church should excommunicate someone for public apostasy? Should they pull back if the person is getting too much public attention, or only excommunicate when they get little to moderate attention? I think we could debate whether church should ever excommunicate for public apostasy, but since the church is clear in its policy on this, should we be angry with the fact that they are following through or with the policy itself?

[wenglund]

It would be a pretty sad commentary on the one true church if for the sake of electing a mere politician, it changed its disciplinary practices. As a Catholic, it would have been far more important to me in 1960 that the Catholic Church continue to be what she always was, than changing her ways or teachings in the hope of electing a Catholic in the United States to political office.

Any word on the Catholic Church's response to the shocking speech given by the daughter of that Catholic politician at the last Democrat Convention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scott Lloyd]

We got articles all over the web showing how fellow brothers like some idiot Gordon at some other obscure website wants to be so diligent to expose this guy to Church authorities.

He has reference here to Scott Gordon, president of FAIR. For the record, Scott is a fine man of sterling character who in no way deserves this defamation.

Last I looked there were a couple of threads over on the board-that-shall-not-be-named devoted to castigating Scott.

Scott and I quite often are mistaken for each other on message boards, for no reason that I can see, other than the fact we have the same given name.

Anyway, on the other board, one of the regulars thought the subject of the thread was me, not Scott Gordon, and he went on for post after post saying how low and yellow I was, and how I'd done this or that thing he didn't like.

Then, somebody must have clued him in, because he came on with his next post, saying something like "I stand corrected. I was talking about Scott Lloyd."

It was pretty funny, actually. The guy reminded me of Gilda Radner's character Emily Litella on the early "Saturday Night Live" episodes.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

Any word on the Catholic Church's response to the shocking speech given by the daughter of that Catholic politician at the last Democrat Convention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would assume it would be the same as Fr. Dolan's prayer at the same convention. It is called the Democratic Convention.

[saemo]

Any word on the Catholic Church's response to the shocking speech given by the daughter of that Catholic politician at the last Democrat Convention?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For Catholics, it is more a matter of not politicizing the Eucharist, which is at the center not only of our faith, but of excommunication. Plus, there are so many Catholics who defy Church teaching, to single out a person because they are a politician, or related to a politician, raises problems of its own.

It is the same for Mormonism. There are many "apostates", including myself, who remain on Mormon membership records. I'm a baptized Catholic, shouldn't I be excommunicated? Yet, this one man is targeted? The timing does look political, considering the temple content he posted was in relationship to the beliefs/practices of a Presidential candidate.

Perhaps it is just a matter of picking the battle and where it will be fought.

There is also the concept of self-excommunication in Catholicism. The Church doesn't have to excommunicate someone when they have done it themselves. Such as, those who leave Catholicism and convert to other religions. They have excommunicated themselves, ie, they aren't coming to Mass and receiving communion.

Edited September 24, 2012 by saemo

[bluebell]

It is the same for Mormonism. There are many "apostates", including myself, who remain on Mormon membership records. I'm a baptized Catholic, shouldn't I be excommunicated? Yet, this one man is targeted?

The man stated that one of his goals was to cause church members to lose faith in the church. And it appears that he uses his membership in the church to lure people in (he has stated that he doesn't want anyone to know he's connected to his blog....yet, and seems to find joy in duping people into thinking he's a believing member).

That doesn't seem like the same thing as joining another religion and not practicing mormonism anymore.

There is also the concept of self-excommunication in Catholicism. The Church doesn't have to excommunicate someone when they have done it themselves. Such as, those who leave Catholicism and convert to other religions. They have excommunicated themselves, ie, they aren't coming to Mass and receiving communion.

If the church excommunicates someone, do they have to go through any kind of a ritual or something if they decide the want to be Catholic again?

Edited September 24, 2012 by bluebell

[saemo]

If the church excommunicates someone, do they have to go through any kind of a ritual or something if they decide the want to be Catholic again?

Those who have been formally excommunicated (which is rare in Catholicism) need permission from the Bishop who excommunicated them, and I believe the Pope as well, to be brought back into full communion with the Church. Then they go to confession. That's it.

Returning Catholics work with their priest. Stories of this type are usually of hours-long confession, depending on how long they have been away. That's it.

Edited September 24, 2012 by saemo

[bluebell]

Those who have been formally excommunicated (which is rare in Catholicism) need permission from the Bishop, who excommunicated them, and I believe the Pope as well, to be brought back into full communion with the Church. Then they go to confession. That's it.

Returning Catholics work with their priest. Stories of this type are usually of hours-long confession, depending on how long they have been away. That's it.

I was just wondering since you said that people can excommunicate themselves by not being actively Catholic, but it doesn't seem to be the same level of seriousness, since a person can become active again without getting permission from the Pope.

This has nothing to do with the thread and is just for the sake of my curiosity, but why is being formally excommunicated so much more serious than excommunicating oneself if the results are the same?

[why me]

Why do we as a Church do dumb things at the wrong time?

With everything this nation has on the line, and the need to support an incredible candidate who is up against the most biased odds of our national media, why does the Church keep doing the most stupid thing by highlighting the very core issue we need to avoid. Sometime I wonder if any of our leaders ever step back, exercise an ounce of common sense and just THINK before they react!!!

This exposure at the worst time is senseless and just goes to show our own ignorance and stupidity in common sense!!!

Way too much focus on something that should have been a non issue.

http://articles.chic...excommunication

Mormons cannot sacrifice their principles because a presidential candidate is mormon. Also, the excommunication is not about Mitt Romney but something much more deeper. The site that he runs is antimormon. The point that we need to remember is that the lds church does have people who wish to do it harm. Earlier it was mentioned in an OP that the entire temple endowment was filmed and posted on youtube.

The church needs to be aware of the times that we are living in. And not shirk from controversy when the health of he church is at stake.

[Scott Lloyd]

The timing does look political, considering the temple content he posted was in relationship to the beliefs/practices of a Presidential candidate.

So we have saemo saying the action looks "political," and we have Bob Oliverio saying the Church has not been political enough in that it should have backed off in deference to a candidate's political aspirations.

Thus we have two critics contradicting each other. Maybe they should get their stories straight for the sake of their own credibility.

[why me]

It is the same for Mormonism. There are many "apostates", including myself, who remain on Mormon membership records. I'm a baptized Catholic, shouldn't I be excommunicated? Yet, this one man is targeted? The timing does look political, considering the temple content he posted was in relationship to the beliefs/practices of a Presidential candidate.

There is also the concept of self-excommunication in Catholicism. The Church doesn't have to excommunicate someone when they have done it themselves. Such as, those who leave Catholicism and convert to other religions. They have excommunicated themselves, ie, they aren't coming to Mass and receiving communion.

I am christianed catholic and joined the lds church at the age of 18. I was not excommunicated from the catholic church. Nor did I ask to be taken off the membership roles. This is the same for you. You were baptized catholic but have not resigned from the lds church. So, technically you are still a member of the lds church. They will not excommunicate you for joining a different faith. But they will excommunicate you for apostacy: actively fighting against the lds church.

[why me]

So we have saemo saying the action looks "political," and we have Bob Oliverio saying the Church has not been political enough in that it should have backed off in deference to a candidate's political aspirations.

Thus we have two critics contradicting each other. Maybe they should get their stories straight for the sake of their own credibility.

I don't think saemo knows much about this case. Nor does he know the goals of the website of the person who blogs there. This man is not facing disciplinary hearings because he does not agree with Mitt Romney.

[saemo]

I was just wondering since you said that people can excommunicate themselves by not being actively Catholic, but it doesn't seem to be the same level of seriousness, since a person can become active again without getting permission from the Pope.

This has nothing to do with the thread and is just for the sake of my curiosity, but why is being formally excommunicated so much more serious than excommunicating oneself if the results are the same?

Formal excommunication is rare, for two reasons that I can think of, off the top of my head. First is, the Church, and more particularly its Sacraments, that are the means to reconciliation to God and to the community (as the Sacrament of Reconciliation reconciles one to both God and the Church). The Church being not an organization of like-minded people, but the Body of Christ. To remove someone from access to the very thing they need, is a very serious course of action. People who defy Church teaching, and also seek to create a separate hierarchy that is meant to replace the Catholic Church, will be excommunicated. Martin Luther is usually given as the example.

Church Canon is clear that those who procure an abortion, or help a minor procure an abortion, will be excommunicated. The Bishop will discern whether or not the person knew they were committing a sin.

A person who has left Catholicism is viewed as wandering. The Prodigal Son (or daughter) who it is hoped will return when their journey turns their feet, and heart, back to Home. When this occurs, there is no hoop jumping for them to do. A good confession is the practice of all Catholics, throughout their lives. Those who return are welcomed home. We celebrate, and there is no better celebration for a Catholic than a person returning to the Lord's Table.

[why me]

It is the same for Mormonism. There are many "apostates", including myself, who remain on Mormon membership records. I'm a baptized Catholic, shouldn't I be excommunicated? Yet, this one man is targeted? The timing does look political, considering the temple content he posted was in relationship to the beliefs/practices of a Presidential candidate.

I don't think that you are an apostate unless you are actively fighting against the lds church. Joining another church does not mean an excommunication. But resigning, actively fighting against the lds church, and disparaging it, will do the trick to get your name off the roles.