Boy Do We Need Common Sense, Please

[why me]

Fine, and there was a time I may have been interested in participating. But, I have lost that interest. I think I've discussed Mormonism long enough. I'm more interested in life off line. Relationships, including Mormons, that aren't based on things like this, that really don't matter.

I can only hope that your dialogue with friends are only about those things that matter to you.

[why me]

Good Lord, what tone is that? You must have voices in your head.

You lost my interest when you decided to clarify your position regarding the inspirational nature of scripture, or lack thereof. I can't take you seriously now, can I?

Adios.

What inspirational nature of scripture are you talking about? or lack there of? My quotation of Paul? And of course, this idea that you can't take me seriously was a little insulting. I have this feeling that I was dialoging with you on CAF. If so, i can understand your hostility.

[KevinG]

Hmmm... why don't you go and knock on their door and deal with it directly? I mean, the way you sort of deal with these things is to make it 'unavoidable' if you know what I mean. So talk to them, and explain away some of the difficulties.

I have continued to invite their son to Scouts (that is my calling). I hope their home teachers and the Elders are doing there part. If a family says "do not contact" to any one of us we have to honor that.

[KevinG]

Sorry, I've heard too many stories from LDS regarding Catholics to not be skeptical.

I'm witnessing this first hand. But you are allowed to accuse me of lying in order to avoid sharing your opinion on it.

I would add that I don't use this incident to generalize about the Catholic church. I carpooled with a friend and gentleman who is very involved in the same congregation and he is the most respectful and Christian man regarding our differences and celebrating our similarities.

[saemo]

As a side note, Paul did not write his own letters. He had very bad eyesight and usually dictated his letters. He would walk up and down at times in anger about what was happening in the church. And he dictated very personalized letters which are now scripture. Paul had very little toleration for members who were guilty of serious sin and the impact that these people could have on the church if action was not taken against them. We can see this from the letter that I posted above.

And as a double sidenote, there were some copycats posting letters in the name of paul and these letters were believed by the church. So, Paul still dictated his letters but eventually he would sign his name which were in big letters because of his eyesight. By this way, the church knew that they were genuine.

Perhaps an assumption on my part, but I can only think you are qualifying in order to say you aren't sure that Paul's writings, or the writings attributed to him, are to be questioned as whether or not hey are inspired?

Otherwise, what is your point? I am more than familiar with the origins of the different writings in the Bible.

[saemo]

I'm witnessing this first hand. But you are allowed to accuse me of lying in order to avoid sharing your opinion on it.

I would add that I don't use this incident to generalize about the Catholic church. I carpooled with a friend and gentleman who is very involved in the same congregation and he is the most respectful and Christian man regarding our differences and celebrating our similarities.

I don't think you are lying. It isn't your story of horns that I question. I hear similar stories, from Catholics and Mormons. They don't have much meaning for me. There are superstitious people in all groups.

Your idea that the Catholic Church is against freemasonry because of a hoax...that's kind of humorous.

Edited September 25, 2012 by saemo

[KevinG]

I don't think you are lying. It isn't your story of horns that I question. I hear similar stories, from Catholics and Mormons. They don't have much meaning for me. There are superstitious people in all groups.

Your idea that the Catholic Church is against freemasonry because of a hoax...that's kind of humorous.

That wasn't my idea. You are confusing two posters.

And how is "being skeptical" of my report not accusing me of lying? I am either telling the truth or I am not.

After reading this whole thread again I have to say its not your Catholicism I object to but your hostility towards much of Mormonism. Your rocks are thrown with a velvet glove and a hint of plausible deniability but you throw them nonetheless. Your skepticism for Mormons is not equal to your acceptance of rumors about them.

Edited September 25, 2012 by KevinG

[saemo]

That wasn't my idea. You are confusing two posters.

And how is "being skeptical" of my report not accusing me of lying? I am either telling the truth or I am not.

After reading this whole thread again I have to say its not your Catholicism I object to but your hostility towards much of Mormonism. Your rocks are thrown with a velvet glove and a hint of plausible deniability but you throw them nonetheless.

So be it.

[Deborah]

Way too much focus on something that should have been a non issue.

Not having read the whole thread, I wonder if you are upset because the church is actually taking action or because you believe the blogger's accusation that he's being disciplined for political opinions, which of course is false. The problem with these cases is that the church doesn't address the reasons and the other party can make up anything he wants and there will always be those who believe him.

[saemo]

I want to share with Saemo that the local Catholic church scared one of our newly baptized families with anti-Mormon propaganda and gave them a "sponsor" who is coaching them to avoid the Mormons. I wonder what her feelings about them allowing this family to make their choice are?

Here is what I question, not your experience, but how it has been relayed perhaps. For one, the red flag of a sponsor. When a person is in the process of converting, or in the case of a baptized Catholic adult who is in the process of seeking confirmation, then and ony then, does that person have a sponsor.

So you're telling me they have a sponsor, which means they are in the process of becoming confirmed in the Catholic Church. What their sponsor says is the sponsor speaking, not the Catholic Church.

Makes you wonder though, why a person is seeking to be confirmed in the Catholic Church while simultaneously seeking a Mormon baptism? You can be sure, their sponsor is under the impression they want to be confirmed.

Edited September 25, 2012 by saemo

[KevinG]

Don't get hung up on the title sponsor. That was my description not a formal title of someone from the Catholic church.

I'm still waiting to hear your opinion of a Catholic church assigning an agent to separate a newly baptized LDS family from their newly chosen faith. This was not an overnight conversion it is a family who had attended the LDS church for over 6 months, taken the full series of missionary lessons and who were involved fully in worship and auxiliary programs.

Edited September 25, 2012 by KevinG

[saemo]

Don't get hung up on the title sponsor. That was my description not a formal title of someone from the Catholic church.

I'm still waiting to hear your opinion of a Catholic church assigning an agent to separate a newly baptized LDS family from their newly chosen faith. This was not an overnight conversion it is a family who had attended the LDS church for over 6 months, taken the full series of missionary lessons and who were involved fully in worship and auxiliary programs.

Why didn't you leave them alone, instead of sending Mormon agents, to separate them from their Catholic faith.

[why me]

Perhaps an assumption on my part, but I can only think you are qualifying in order to say you aren't sure that Paul's writings, or the writings attributed to him, are to be questioned as whether or not hey are inspired?

Otherwise, what is your point? I am more than familiar with the origins of the different writings in the Bible.

My point was that the early church did excommunicate people at the time of Paul and Paul's letter confirms it. That is all. You claimed that Paul did not excommunicate anyone. True, but he did favor separation from the sinner in the church.

[Ares]

Good Lord, what tone is that? You must have voices in your head.

You lost my interest when you decided to clarify your position regarding the inspirational nature of scripture, or lack thereof. I can't take you seriously now, can I?

Adios.

Treat other posters with the respect you demand. You are excused from this thread.

[MormonMason]

Hi Mormon Mason.

Maybe this important question about wings and horns on Mormons will be decided officially by the Catholic Church at some future date? That some Mormon teenager takes off his shirt is no proof that you are always without wings and horns. You can probably make them appear and disappear at will.

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this development of Catholic doctrine.

3DOP

No one said anything about it being Catholic doctrine. Yet, what I described did happen. I was an eyewitness to the events. And, I am sure that your idea about making them disappear at will may well have been the next step taken by the clergyman when his concoction failed to get the results he wanted when those who realized that their priest lied to them left and joined the Mormons. I would not know about that, however, since I moved from the area not long afterward.

[why me]

Why didn't you leave them alone, instead of sending Mormon agents, to separate them from their Catholic faith.

Such is a missionary faith. By the way, the catholic church had their own missionaries in bygone times. How do you think that central and south america became catholic? By choice? Why did the catholic church send its agents to convert the natives in that part of the world? And in Europe? And in africa?

We need to be fair when it comes to missionary agents.

[KevinG]

Why didn't you leave them alone, instead of sending Mormon agents, to separate them from their Catholic faith.

You know better than that. Our missionaries don't target people of specific faith's or attempt to separate them from their relations.

[volgadon]

No one said anything about it being Catholic doctrine. Yet, what I described did happen. I was an eyewitness to the events. And, I am sure that your idea about making them disappear at will may well have been the next step taken by the clergyman when his concoction failed to get the results he wanted when those who realized that their priest lied to them left and joined the Mormons. I would not know about that, however, since I moved from the area not long afterward.

I don't think he was being serious.

[MormonMason]

...

Your idea that the Catholic Church is against freemasonry because of a hoax...that's kind of humorous.

Unfortunately, it is the truth. Much of the information contained in Humanum Genus comes directly from the same information that the hoaxer used as well as rumor accounts emitted by early writers opposed to Freemasonry. Today, much of the argumentation from the Vatican follows the same lines. For example, consider the following from Humanum Genus:

At this period, however, the partisans of evil seems to be combining together, and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons. No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html

That is an utter falsehood contained in an official promulgation. The source of this allegation, however, was anti-Masonic publications which later were drawn upon by Leo Taxil in his work to hoax the Roman Catholic Church further. Here is another quote from the same encyclical:

6. For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right, to be pernicious no less to Christiandom than to the State; and it forbade any one to enter the society, under the penalties which the Church is wont to inflict upon exceptionally guilty persons.

Freemasonry is neither a religion nor a sect but a fraternity. Its laws and constitutions are not contrary to Christianity and Freemasonry is of no danger to the State. But, those are the common claims of those opposed to Freemasonry. Many have published on the subject, including those who claimed to have been part of the Order in their attack rantings and writings, which the Roman Catholic Church used to conduct their investigations into the subject. In other words, they very much used information that came from hoaxers to formulate their opinions. Go ahead and read the document carefully. Much of what is contained in Humanum Genus regarding Freemasons and Freemasonry, as well as its purposes and alleged machinations against Christianity, come directly from the publications of hoaxers and these hoaxes have been perpetuated to the present day.

While on the subject of humor, what I find humorous is that one of the points in which the Roman Catholic Church was opposed to Freemasonry was the Freemasons' ideas regarding the separation of Church and State in government. Even when I wasn't a Freemason, I always thought of this separation as one of the best things ever done in government. It makes it better and easier to maintain some semblance of equality of rights without respect to religious affiliation.

[MormonMason]

I don't think he was being serious.

With him it is hard to know sometimes. Sometimes it is hard to know with anyone at times. That is the nature of non-personal communication betimes.

[why me]

From the lds newsroom:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-news-getting-it-right-september-25

I thought it gave clarification to the thread.

[MormonMason]

Definitely answers the question. Looks like common sense was used. I just wish they would do this for all the wolves among us. I personally know of several who still remain on the rolls. Unfortunately, I do not recall all of their names but one first name and I have not been in the areas where they were for a long time, so they may no longer be there. Maybe someone did finally put them out the doors. I do not know.

[KevinG]

Definitely answers the question. Looks like common sense was used. I just wish they would do this for all the wolves among us. I personally know of several who still remain on the rolls. Unfortunately, I do not recall all of their names but one first name and I have not been in the areas where they were for a long time, so they may no longer be there. Maybe someone did finally put them out the doors. I do not know.

Wheat and tares I believe. I've told my family that someone else being "active" on false pretenses does not have any impact on their own worthiness and perfect justice is often eternal not temporal.