Permissibility Of Abortion

[mfbukowski]

It was not my intention to offend, but I think I will stand my ground on this one and excuse myself from the thread after one more comment.

I feel quite differently about my wife than I do about my mother. I am protective of my mother but not in the same way. I expect my mother to pass away (she already has) before my wife does and my wife is my partner in raising my kids- I don't know what I would do without her. She will be my partner forever and is "one flesh" with me in a way my mother never was nor never will be nor ever should be. My wife is truly my "better half"- almost literally. It is like being one in the way the Godhead is one- one in love and purpose.

We are not supposed to be like that with parents.

I would love to interview a married Catholic priest who has loved his wife for 30 or more years and ask him if he would allow her to die or allow a fetus to die.

There is no question which I would pick, and if that is offensive to some, I cannot understand why, but it is my position and I am sticking with it. I have never thought of myself as "pro-choice" but I have never thought about it in these terms either.

Define it as you will- I am just telling you that given that decision- as I feel right now- there is no question which I would choose.

Again, my intention was not to offend by saying that, but I will not change my mind on this one.

[mfbukowski]

So, the subjective personal experience of your leaders is more important in determining moral questions than the objective truth of God... I get it!

You are treading on very very ....soft ground

I accept no one's personal opinions for anything. Period.

I accept what God has revealed to me. I have no Magesterium- I have personal revelation.

So keep your projections to yourself, Mr Freud. As projections do, they reveal more about the person making them than the one upon whom they are made.

That is PRECISELY the difference between us.

Edited September 24, 2012 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

I accept no one's personal opinions for anything. Period.

I find this hard to believe. I bet that if we went through your beliefs one by one we'd find at least one that was based on what others say and not on your own personal experience. It's just part of being human -- we are full of so many beliefs and assumptions, many of which come from those around us.

I accept what God has revealed to me. I have no Magesterium- I have personal revelation.

The LDS church has "the Brethren." In times of crises and confusion, "follow the Brethren," right?

So keep your projections to yourself, Mr Freud.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

That is PRECISELY the difference between us.

Are you referring to the difference that I follow heirarchy and you do not? What difference exactly?

[The Nehor]

Freedom:

Why does God need a tape recorder?

He needs a starship; why wouldn't he also need a tape recorder?

Edited September 24, 2012 by The Nehor

[blueadept]

I accept what God has revealed to me. I have no Magesterium- I have personal revelation.

Thus the difference between the LDS version of personal revelation versus the Catholic version. Our personal revelation will not be out of step with the Magesterium. IMO, it's an advantage for our priests not to be married to help them keep them in tune with God. It's just a matter of perspective.

Personally, I would be fine with the Pope changing the policy tomorrow and allowing our priests to get married. With the the many priests coming from Africa, Asia and Latin America, I don't foresee the practice being changed.

[CV75]

the objective truth of God

From this standpoint, which of God’s commandments in the Garden of Eden was more important: the command to multiply and replenish the earth, or the command not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (in essence for Adam and Eve not to cause their own death, or bring death into the world, or kill His living creations)?

[Freedom]

Freedom:

Why does God need a tape recorder?

Why is god unable to deliver a message to one of his prophets just because he is on the other side of the planet? I don't understand your comment.

[MiserereNobis]

From this standpoint, which of God’s commandments in the Garden of Eden was more important: the command to multiply and replenish the earth, or the command not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (in essence for Adam and Eve not to cause their own death, or bring death into the world, or kill His living creations)?

I'm not quite sure how this connects to the topic at hand. Can you clarify?

[mfbukowski]

nevermind.

Edited September 24, 2012 by mfbukowski

[blueadept]

nevermind.

Hmmm....that was a quick delete.....oh well

[mfbukowski]

It was not my intention to offend, but I think I will stand my ground on this one and excuse myself from the thread after one more comment.

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

I think that projecting any technology onto God is meaningless, and that speculating about when the spirit enters the body is futile.

[cinepro]

On the subject of abortion, I've always wondered why Satan would support it.

According to LDS doctrine, one of two things would happen after an abortion. Either the spirit was "born" and died, in which case it goes straight to the Celestial Kingdom.

The other option is that the spirit of the child wasn't "born", and therefore it must be given another chance in another body. If abortions are rarely given to LDS women, then that would mean that the spirit would have probably been born into a non-LDS family and it is very, very unlikely they would have ever become LDS. But if they have to get re-assigned to another body, there is a chance they will end up in an LDS family, which greatly increases the likelihood they will accept the gospel.

The ideal situation for Satan is for as many children to be born into non-LDS families as possible (and live to the age of accountability). This would give him maximum opportunity to tempt them. Abortion makes that less likely to happen. So according to LDS doctrines, he would probably be looking at the acceptance of abortion in the world as a bad thing.

[blueadept]

Freedom:

I think that projecting any technology onto God is meaningless, and that speculating about when the spirit enters the body is futile.

Agreed... Thus the reason the RCC takes the safest position that life should be protected from the point of conception to natural death. That leaves the issue totally in God's hands then.

[emeliza]

_{I am not pro-life and I am not pro-choice and neither is the LDS Church. It is basically save, legal and rare. The instances it allows are rape, incest and danger to the life of the mother and those are only made after much council.}

_{I think Cal probably gave the best answer.}

_{We do not know when the spirit enters the body and that is an important thing for us. In the Catholic faith, the spirit enters the body at conception and thus an abortion would be thought of as murder. In the LDS faith, we do not know when the spirt enters the body so we do not believe that abortion is murder, though we do agree it is not to be taken lightly.}

_{I think also that agency has a lot to do with it because of two of the reasons given, incest and rape. I think in the case of incest, that would generally also be a rape. The health of the mother is a bit tricky, but I think in that case, if the mother does decide to have an abortion it would not be an easy choice.}

_{Personally I do not think I could ever have an abortion, but I am glad that my church does not force that on its members. That being said, with the knowledge the Catholic church feels it has on when life begins (conception), I fully understand why they would have an absolute pro-life stand point.}

_{So...the answer final answer....we don't know.}

[thesometimesaint]

Blueadept:

Agreed... Thus the reason the RCC takes the safest position that life should be protected from the point of conception to natural death. That leaves the issue totally in God's hands then.

I think it is a fine belief for Catholics. Men play God all the time then think up rationalizations to justify their immoral acts against others.

[blueadept]

_{I am not pro-life and I am not pro-choice and neither is the LDS Church. It is basically save, legal and rare. [}

_{I always appreciate when I meet LDS that admit that they are neither Pro-Life or Pro-Choice and believe the LDS Church is correct in its guidance for its members.}

_{That said. ,more needs to be done to make this issue truly RARE. That's one aspect that both sides can agree that should be a major goal.}

Edited September 24, 2012 by blueadept

[thesometimesaint]

_{I always appreciate when I meet LDS that admit that they are neither Pro-Life or Pro-Choice and believe the LDS Church is correct in its guidance for its members.}

_{That said. ,more needs to be done to make this issue truly RARE. That's one aspect that both sides can agree that should be a major goal.}

I think most people would agree with that goal. How it is to be achieved is the sticking point.

[blueadept]

Fortunately, the Pro-Life movement is getting obviously younger while supporters for Planned Parenthood are getting obviously older. That sticking point will eventually become moot as organizations give expecting mothers more viable options.

[CV75]

I'm not quite sure how this connects to the topic at hand. Can you clarify?

The issue of abortion ties back to both commandments.

[CV75]

So according to LDS doctrines, he would probably be looking at the acceptance of abortion in the world as a bad thing.

The adversary gets people to engage in attitudes contrary to turning their hearts to the children, which carries into the next world. Getting societies hardened to the idea of abortion contributes to dulling individual spiritual senses and thwarts an efficient and effective building of the kingdom in the earth.

[emeliza]

Funny, I feel like the pro-lifers are getting older and the pro-choice group is getting younger. Again maybe it is the pickers that I see that are getting older. I absolutely hate when they use graphic signs to protest.

As for ways to make abortion truly rare, that is a tough one. I think getting rid of certain ways of doing abortion would be helpful and I think that realizing that the law will be slow to come about needs to be recognized.

[thesometimesaint]

Blueadept:

Fortunately, the Pro-Life movement is getting obviously younger while supporters for Planned Parenthood are getting obviously older. That sticking point will eventually become moot as organizations give expecting mothers more viable options.

Until those younger women need the services provided by Planned Parenthood.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/09/06/807061/defunding-planned-parenthood-caused-womens-servicesto-drop-by-93-percent-in-tennessee-county/

[blueadept]

Funny, I feel like the pro-lifers are getting older and the pro-choice group is getting younger. Again maybe it is the pickers that I see that are getting older. I absolutely hate when they use graphic signs to protest.

As for ways to make abortion truly rare, that is a tough one. I think getting rid of certain ways of doing abortion would be helpful and I think that realizing that the law will be slow to come about needs to be recognized.

I can appreciate that local viewpoint. In the big demonstrations in San Francisco and Washington DC, you can definitely notice the difference

http://walkforlifewc.blogspot.com/

My biggest annoyance (which really isn't one) is all the baby strollers I seem to trip over during the walk. Of course, having 40,000 people there may be part of the problem as well.

[blueadept]

Blueadept:

Until those younger women need the services provided by Planned Parenthood.

http://thinkprogress...nnessee-county/

We're trying to erect Pro-life clinics everywhere a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic is to give these women viable options. It's taken some effort but we are viligent.