Do You Believe God The Father Had A Father

[zerinus]

Yes, but not only the standard works.

Only in the standard works, or as derived from the standard works.

I'm repeating what has been taught by the "key" people in public, which is still commonly available to the public at large.

Do you really believe these are mysteries of God? This is very basic stuff, at the very foundation of both who and what God is.

You should try to learn this stuff if you want to know what and who you worship as God, and it's all just basic doctrine.

I don't know who those "key people" are. I don't hear much of that doctrine from the "key people" whom I know of.

They can be found in scripture, unless your idea of scripture is limited to the canon. Even the canon teaches all of this doctrine, though, so you could still learn this stuff even if you stuck only to the canon. If you don't think so, tell me what part of what I'm saying you don't think is in the standard works, and I will explain to you how I believe it is. At that piont you can then look to see what has been taught by the "key" people in the Church and you will see that they have taught the same things.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I don't know of any "key people" who are teaching this kind of thing.

As for me pointing out where your teaching contradicts scripture, I think I have already done that, but you give them dud answers.

[zerinus]

Sheesh, zerinus. Just look around you. There are both chickens and eggs on this Earth, at the same time.

This is the way it has always been, generally. Chickens produce eggs, and chicken eggs develop as chickens.

It hasn't always been. If you are an evolutionist, they evolved. If you are a creationist, they were created.

What is so hard for you to understand about that? There is no paradox.

There is a paradox, unless one of them had a beginning.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have given this topic much thought over my life and have come to understand that it does not matter if the father had a father, to us it only matters that our heavenly father had son and it is to him that we look for salvation..."though there be gods many, there is but one God we worship". Paul from Corinthians

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I responded to my own response.

[zerinus]

This quote:

is an official declaration of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12.

I was already aware of that.

[Okrahomer]

Yes, and Shakespeare says "Juliette is the Sun."

That was one big hot mama!

[zerinus]

There has never been a time when there were no chickens.

So chickens came first then, since there can be no eggs without the chickens.

[thesometimesaint]

There has never been a time when there were no chickens.

Even eggs are chickens if they are chicken eggs, even though they're still in their embryo stage... and even if a rooster hasn't come along to fertilize the eggs.

Come on, now. You can come up with the same answers I'm giving you if you'll just think about this a little more.

CFR

[Ahab]

It hasn't always been. If you are an evolutionist, they evolved. If you are a creationist, they were created.

Creation is all about organizing and sometimes changing some thing or things, rather than to make something from nothing.

When this Earth was created, life forms from somewhere else were placed here, rather than made from out of nothing, so God took the essence of a chicken from some other place and placed it here on this planet. They didn't come from out of nowhere. They came from where there were some other chickens or what chickens came from, and then those chickens started to reproduce on this planet. As a side note, what we call chickens now came from a certain type of bird that commonly lived in a jungle setting, so you may not be thinking of the same kind of bird I call a chicken.

There is a paradox, unless one of them had a beginning.

You're stuck on the false idea that a form of life has to have a beginning, instead of always existing with its seed within itself to perpetuate that form of life, and I've explain how that idea is not right. Maybe you'll get it later if you keep asking God to explain it to you.

[Ahab]

I responded to my own response.

Did you learn anything new? Sometimes God will tell me something when I do that.

[Ahab]

So chickens came first then, since there can be no eggs without the chickens.

Generally speaking, chickens and eggs have always existed at the same time together someplace in existence.

Some particular chickens did exist prior to producing their own eggs, but generally speaking, there have always been both chickens and eggs somewhere in existence.

Think of it. Let your mind try to go back in time as far as you can imagine, and then imagine the universe existing with all forms of life already existing somewhere in some part of the universe. Dispel the notion that the universe was ever empty, or that there was some time when it never existed. When I speak of the universe, I'm referring to the one place where every other place exists... with the "uni" in "universe" referring to that "one" place.

Are you fighting that idea while thinking that at some point there wasn't some place in existence, or that the place was totally empty with nothing in it? Ignore that idea. It won't do you any good to believe that.

Or maybe you think there were a few things floating around out there, but only a few things, maybe including some single cell creature that existed and from which every other form of life has come from through evolution? Get rid of that idea, too. There's no point believing something that isn't true.

Or maybe you think there was nothing out there but God, fully developed and perfect as we are taught, but with nobody else out there but him, all alone, until he creates 2 other persons to be with him and then they together create everything else from out of that nothingness? At least you're seeing God now, but you're still not seeing where he came from or what and who else was out there with him.

Keep thinking about it and maybe someday you will see what God has shown me and Moses and Abraham and Joseph Smith and many other people while explaining what we are seeing.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[Ahab]

CFR

I don't remember which particular scriptures I was reading when God opened my mind to see what I'm trying to explain.

I suggest you start with the standard works, which cover at least some of these ideas, and then go beyond the standard works to include everything the people with the priesthood "keys" have said regarding all of these issues. Some of them have even used some of the same words I have used to explain this. I just don't remember exactly who said it, or where I read it, when God confirmed the truth of their message to me.

... and don't bother telling me that what they say isn't necessarily scripture or doctrine, because I know how to find out when it is.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[ERayR]

So chickens came first then, since there can be no eggs without the chickens.

But there can be no chickens without eggs.

[Ahab]

Only in the standard works, or as derived from the standard works.

No, doctrine and scripture aren't limited to only the standard works. Learn from all who have or ever had keys of the kingdom.

I don't know who those "key people" are. I don't hear much of that doctrine from the "key people" whom I know of.

You can easily find out who has had (or at least allegedly had) the keys of the kingdom in this dispensation, though.

Go all the way back to Joseph Smith and then go forward from there. Their teachings can be found, if you care to look, including on the Church website and in software packages with their teachings in them.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I don't know of any "key people" who are teaching this kind of thing.

If key people once taught it, and no person with keys has ever said it isn't true, then it is still considered good doctrine in the kingdom of God.

As for me pointing out where your teaching contradicts scripture, I think I have already done that, but you give them dud answers.

You may think you've done it but you haven't done a very good job of doing it. Show me what it is about a certain quote that you think contradicts another quote, being as perfectly analytical and specific as you can imagine ever being.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

The problem here is how one determines if an idea is from God or not. If some are and some are not, how does one pick which to follow or not?

You can't pray about it- because how do you know if THAT answer is from God or not? It becomes an infinite regress.

The only one who can judge if an idea is from God or not is the person receiving it- and then it becomes an Alma 32 deal. If the idea becomes sweet to you- it is from God. But what if it conflicts with someone else's idea "from God"?

Ultimately we all just have to follow our consciences which brings us full circle back to the start. We are pretty much alone and in our own heads about judging this stuff.

I can tell which are from God through experience. Some I know are from God directly. These are True with a capital T. These are commandments or revelations I trust completely. Then there are some that come when I am meditating or praying that are not so clear cut. They are partially true or true but I do not understand how they work or suggestions God wants to give me. I generally follow these unless something opposing comes along. I do not teach it. Then there are my thoughts I am 99% certain God does. Ot have a say in like me deciding where to go for lunch, simple work decisions, and things like that.

[The Nehor]

The Holy Office, for those that do not know, is the Holy Office of the Inquisition. His works were declared heretical. So please, don't hold up Teilhard de Chardin as someone who has Catholic beliefs

I assume this means he ended up in the comfy chair.

[MiserereNobis]

I assume this means he ended up in the comfy chair.

What it means is that the world thinks he is great, and he helped lead poor mfb from Catholicism to Mormonism

[The Nehor]

But there had to be a first chicken somewhere.

This assumes time is strictly linear. If not then there did not have to be a first. If it had a beginning it would have to end.

[mfbukowski]

Well at least somebody around here has a sense of humor!

[Ahab]

I can tell which are from God through experience. Some I know are from God directly. These are True with a capital T. These are commandments or revelations I trust completely. Then there are some that come when I am meditating or praying that are not so clear cut. They are partially true or true but I do not understand how they work or suggestions God wants to give me. I generally follow these unless something opposing comes along. I do not teach it. Then there are my thoughts I am 99% certain God does. Ot have a say in like me deciding where to go for lunch, simple work decisions, and things like that.

That sounds like how it works for all of us. We learn a little here, a little there, precept upon precept, graduallly learning more and more until we eventually learn everything.

I think that when trying to learn about God we need to start with the most basic doctrine, and how much more basic can it get than to understand both who and what God really is? And what subject do you think Satan would focus on first when trying to get us to not believe something about God? Who and what God is, of course. That's what he tries to confuse us about because he doesn't really want us to know both who and what we are, and what we can be. Not that we'll ever be a different kind of being, but we can be all that we can become and our Father is the perfect example along with Jesus Christ who is also the express image of his person.

[mfbukowski]

What it means is that the world thinks he is great, and he helped lead poor mfb from Catholicism to Mormonism

If you read what I wrote you will notice I had already left the church. In fact he probably slowed me down in thinking I could be an apostate Catholic for a while.

But I had to pass through the atheist and Buddhist stage also, so he was just kind of midway up the offramp. I waved to him and kept on traveling.

[The Nehor]

Generally speaking, chickens and eggs have always existed at the same time together someplace in existence.

Some particular chickens did exist prior to producing their own eggs, but generally speaking, there have always been both chickens and eggs somewhere in existence.

Think of it. Let your mind try to go back in time as far as you can imagine, and then imagine the universe existing with all forms of life already existing somewhere in some part of the universe. Dispel the notion that the universe was ever empty, or that there was some time when it never existed. When I speak of the universe, I'm referring to the one place where every other place exists... with the "uni" in "universe" referring to that "one" place.

Are you fighting that idea while thinking that at some point there wasn't some place in existence, or that the place was totally empty with nothing in it? Ignore that idea. It won't do you any good to believe that.

Or maybe you think there were a few things floating around out there, but only a few things, maybe including some single cell creature that existed and from which every other form of life has come from through evolution? Get rid of that idea, too. There's no point believing something that isn't true.

Or maybe you think there was nothing out there but God, fully developed and perfect as we are taught, but with nobody else out there but him, all alone, until he creates 2 other persons to be with him and then they together create everything else from out of that nothingness? At least you're seeing God now, but you're still not seeing where he came from or what and who else was out there with him.

Keep thinking about it and maybe someday you will see what God has shown me and Moses and Abraham and Joseph Smith and many other people while explaining what we are seeing.

I eagerly await the Apocalypse of Ahab.

Also you are not using the term "universe" correctly unless you are arguing against the Big Bang too. You tried to redefine it but your redefinition makes no sense.

[Ahab]

I eagerly await the Apocalypse of Ahab.

I do try to share more and more about me, or at least what I think is relevant to show who I'm following as I try to become what I truly desire to be. As my sig line says, I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I am following. It's all supposed to work together for the glory of God.

Also you are not using the term "universe" correctly unless you are arguing against the Big Bang too. You tried to redefine it but your redefinition makes no sense.

It makes sense. You just can't see that it makes sense.

There has always been some place where all other places exist, regardless of whether or not that place:

a) once was totally empty, or

b) once had a universe "egg" in it that eventually blew up with every other place coming from what was within that "egg" place before it expanded into the one big what-was-once-emply place, or

c) once had all forms of life in it which have always perpetuated themselves, or

d) once had only some forms of life in it and some of those forms became other forms of life.

If you can think of any other options, feel free to let me know.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

I do try to share more and more about me, or at least what I think is relevant to show who I'm following as I try to become what I truly desire to be. As my sig line says, I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I am following. It's all supposed to work together for the glory of God.

It makes sense. You just can't see that it makes sense.

There has always been some place where all other places exist, regardless of whether or not that place was totally empty or if it had a universe "egg" in it that eventually blew up with every other place coming from what was within that "egg" place before it expanded into the one big what-was-once-emply place.

The Universe was not empty before it formed. It did not exist at all. Space and time as we understand them were formed in the beginning.

Does your theory require that there be Universe "chickens" laying said "eggs"? I suspect you are assuming you comprehend things you do not understand.

[Ahab]

The Universe was not empty before it formed. It did not exist at all. Space and time as we understand them were formed in the beginning.

No, that isn't right. If you're referring to the words "in the beginning" which are recorded in Genesis 1:1, and some other scriptures, that beginning refers to the time when this Earth was created, in that beginning, not the beginning of everything, generally.

You seem to have been influenced by some Catholic church teachings, as they were influenced by others, and they have the wrong idea on that issue. The purpose of the Restoration was to restore what was lost through apostasy.

Does your theory require that there be Universe "chickens" laying said "eggs"? I suspect you are assuming you comprehend things you do not understand.

It isn't a theory. It is what God has told me both personally and through his authorized servants with keys.

I once thought maybe God made chickens from a part of his own DNA or something like that, wiith all forms of life coming from some part of his actual being, but later I saw that they are another form of life (intelligence) apart from him and our kind of being. They too have seeds within themselves to perpetuate their own kind of being, just as every other kind of life does.

It opened up what was once a totally new paradigm for me and it now helps me to understand how reality is, including how our Father is really our Father, and where he came from.