Do You Believe God The Father Had A Father

[mfbukowski]

Holy Cow.

Oops

I meant Holy Chicken. It has finally happened.

I have no clue what to say. (Tongue in beak) I am flying the coop.

Edited September 21, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

Holy Cow.

Oops

I meant Holy Chicken. It has finally happened.

I have no clue what to say. (Tongue in beak) I am flying the coop.

Funny as ever. Thank you for pecking at me while you were here.

[mfbukowski]

Funny as ever. Thank you for pecking at me while you were here.

I have been called many things in my life, and that is one of them.

[zerinus]

But there can be no chickens without eggs.

So you are suggesting that eggs came first. Okay, I will go along with that. But one of them must have come first, no?

[Ahab]

So you are suggesting that eggs came first. Okay, I will go along with that. But one of them must have come first, no?

I'll stay out of this conversation this time and hope someone else will tell you what I would tell you and told you.

[ERayR]

So you are suggesting that eggs came first. Okay, I will go along with that. But one of them must have come first, no?

I have no idea. God can do some marvelous things. Yes he can.

[urroner]

So you are suggesting that eggs came first. Okay, I will go along with that. But one of them must have come first, no?

Actually, the egg came first. With evolution in mind, there was a long line of almost chicken birds a long time ago. They were almost chickens, but not quite chickens, or whatever we define a chicken as. Then one day, due to a mutation in an almost chicken, she laid an egg which contained the first chicken. A weasel came by that evening as stole the egg and ate it, but the almost chicken laid another egg with the same mutation or gene sequence, and, this time, the egg hatch and the first chicken came forth. So the egg came first,....well, that is unless you are insisting that the chicken came at the same time, since it was inside the egg....but, then again, the egg was there, but the chicken was still in embryonic form, so it was a "true" chicken, but not completely formed yet.....but, then again.......

[zerinus]

I have no idea. God can do some marvelous things. Yes he can.

I am sure He can. But He doesn't have a reputation for doing crazy things.

[Ahab]

I have no idea. God can do some marvelous things. Yes he can.

Doh!

I guess there will always be some people who think God can make something from nothing, or a chicken without any eggs.

Just because they believe that doesn't mean it's true, though.

[Ahab]

Actually, the egg came first. With evolution in mind, there was a long line of almost chicken birds a long time ago. They were almost chickens, but not quite chickens, or whatever we define a chicken as. Then one day, due to a mutation in an almost chicken, she laid an egg which contained the first chicken. A weasel came by that evening as stole the egg and ate it, but the almost chicken laid another egg with the same mutation or gene sequence, and, this time, the egg hatch and the first chicken came forth. So the egg came first,....well, that is unless you are insisting that the chicken came at the same time, since it was inside the egg....but, then again, the egg was there, but the chicken was still in embryonic form, so it was a "true" chicken, but not completely formed yet.....but, then again.......

Thank you for showing me another way to look at this. If there was a chicken egg, there was also a chicken even if that chicken was only in it's embyonic stage. It's not a totally new idea to me, but you expressed it in a way I hadn't thought of.

Edit: ... and one more thing. The almost chicken counts as a chicken, since that is what chickens came from and things can only beget things after their own kind.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

No, that isn't right. If you're referring to the words "in the beginning" which are recorded in Genesis 1:1, and some other scriptures, that beginning refers to the time when this Earth was created, in that beginning, not the beginning of everything, generally.

You seem to have been influenced by some Catholic church teachings, as they were influenced by others, and they have the wrong idea on that issue. The purpose of the Restoration was to restore what was lost through apostasy.

It isn't a theory. It is what God has told me both personally and through his authorized servants with keys.

I once thought maybe God made chickens from a part of his own DNA or something like that, wiith all forms of life coming from some part of his actual being, but later I saw that they are another form of life (intelligence) apart from him and our kind of being. They too have seeds within themselves to perpetuate their own kind of being, just as every other kind of life does.

It opened up what was once a totally new paradigm for me and it now helps me to understand how reality is, including how our Father is really our Father, and where he came from.

I meant time and space within this Universe more properly I should have used the "In a beginning" or "in the beginning of" renditions of Genesis 1:1 but I stand by the idea that time and space as we know them (in other words in this universe) started when this Universe formed. I have not been influenced by Catholicism on this point. It is possible that superficially they appear similar but I would argue that both stem from the same source though one is more corrupt then the other.

I stand corrected. I am convinced your conclusions are false then if you insist it is not a theory.

[MiserereNobis]

Doh!

I guess there will always be some people who think God can make something from nothing, or a chicken without any eggs.

Just because they believe that doesn't mean it's true, though.

Ahab, the god you seem to be describing is bound by physical laws. Do you believe in miracles? The God I believe in could easily create a chicken without an egg, or create matter were there was none before, if He so desired. He created the natural laws and can bend or break them whenever He pleases.

It seems that your understanding of God comes from extrapolating what happens here on earth and then assuming that He is the same. For example, if fathers on earth have fathers then God must have a father, or if humans require a physical father, then Jesus must have a physical father.

So I'll ask again: do you believe in miracles?

[ERayR]

Doh!

I guess there will always be some people who think God can make something from nothing, or a chicken without any eggs.

Just because they believe that doesn't mean it's true, though.

You are misreading me. I do not believe he did anything from nothing. I just don't know how he did it. But I am sure that when he did it he had my wife's fried chicken in mind.

[mfbukowski]

I was going to say something, but was too chicken to participate.

[The Nehor]

I was going to say something, but was too chicken to participate.

I clucked in disapproval at this post.

[mfbukowski]

He created the natural laws and can bend or break them whenever He pleases.

Nope. It would be like if God did not keep the commandments.

He keeps his word- if he sets a law he keeps it, or he would cease to be God.

And we believe that miracles are natural events beyond our science. Kind of like TV would be a miracle in Jesus day- to see and hear what was happening thousands of miles away while it was happening.

[mfbukowski]

I clucked in disapproval at this post.

Eggsactly what I thought you would say.

[ERayR]

Eggsactly what I thought you would say.

And nothing got scrambled.

[MiserereNobis]

Nope. It would be like if God did not keep the commandments.

He keeps his word- if he sets a law he keeps it, or he would cease to be God.

And we believe that miracles are natural events beyond our science. Kind of like TV would be a miracle in Jesus day- to see and hear what was happening thousands of miles away while it was happening.

Interesting. So for LDS, a miracle is just an event which cannot be currently explained? This actually helps me understand much. Then again, is this official doctrine? Ah, that bugger of a question

[The Nehor]

Interesting. So for LDS, a miracle is just an event which cannot be currently explained? This actually helps me understand much. Then again, is this official doctrine? Ah, that bugger of a question

I would disagree with it as it was stated so probably cannot accept it as an LDS consensus. I know. I screw up everything.

[Ahab]

I meant time and space within this Universe more properly I should have used the "In a beginning" or "in the beginning of" renditions of Genesis 1:1 but I stand by the idea that time and space as we know them (in other words in this universe) started when this Universe formed.

You make about as much sense as my Catholic friends on this issue.

What do you think there was before this space (we call the universe) existed?

Nothing at all? If you think that, couldn't you see how that "space" could be defined as an empty space with nothing in it?

I referred to that as one of the possible scenarios, or rather a scenario some people think is possible or true, but it's not true, and I not only know it's not true, but I'll also tell you that I know it's not true.

That takes care of the "where", which I refer to as "space" and a "place" where things in it exist, or at least can exist.

What do you think there was before this space (we call the universe) existed?

Even the question reveals there was a time with everything involving that time.

I have not been influenced by Catholicism on this point. It is possible that superficially they appear similar but I would argue that both stem from the same source though one is more corrupt then the other.

Okay, I can see how that makes some sense.

Whoever you got that idea from, though... and we all know who gives false ideas... that idea that he gave you is wrong.

I stand corrected. I am convinced your conclusions are false then if you insist it is not a theory.

Many people have been wrong about me before. Welcome to the club, my heretic friend.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[Ahab]

Ahab, the god you seem to be describing is bound by physical laws.

True, or what I would refer to as physics while pionting out that he perfectly understands how far he can stretch to the limits.

Do you believe in miracles?

Yes, but do you know what miracles are? The fact that God can do things we can't do now doesn't mean he's operating outside the parameters of physics.

The God I believe in could easily create a chicken without an egg, or create matter were there was none before, if He so desired. He created the natural laws and can bend or break them whenever He pleases.

That's because you have the mentality of a little child who believes his Daddy can do anything. It's very sweet, but not true.

There are some things even God can not do, but he is able to do many things we have yet to understand.

It seems that your understanding of God comes from extrapolating what happens here on earth and then assuming that He is the same. For example, if fathers on earth have fathers then God must have a father, or if humans require a physical father, then Jesus must have a physical father.

I enjoy learning from reality, from what I can see all around me all over the place, rather than believing in a make believe world.

I do realize I can't see everything yet, as our Father can, but when I can see I'm sure there won't be anything out of harmony with physics or any other branch of science. He works within the framework of reality, knowing exactly how far he can stretch to the limits.

So I'll ask again: do you believe in miracles?

Yes, and I will ask you again. Do you know what miracles are?

[The Nehor]

You make about as much sense as my Catholic friends on this issue.

What do you think there was before this space (we call the universe) existed?

Nothing at all? If you think that, couldn't you see how that "space" could be defined as an empty space with nothing in it?

I referred to that as one of the possible scenarios, or rather a scenario some people think is possible or true, but it's not true, and I not only know it's not true, but I'll also tell you that I know it's not true.

That takes care of the "where", which I refer to as "space" and a "place" where things in it exist, or at least can exist.

What do you think there was before this space (we call the universe) existed?

Even the question reveals there was a time with everything involving that time.

Okay, I can see how that makes some sense.

Whoever you got that idea from, though... and we all know who gives false ideas... that idea that he gave you is wrong.

Many people have been wrong about me before. Welcome to the club, my heretic friend.

Your premises do not support your conclusions. I also do not limit my conception of all that is to this one Universe.

I am being accused of heresy now for disagreeing with you? Someone did not read Joseph Smith's comments about how a follower of Christ can err and still follow Christ. Someone also seems to imagIne that his conclusions, although not taught by the Brethren, are binding on the membership and it is heresy to disagree with them. Someone also imagines vainly that all ideas he does not agree with come from Satan. Someone is also the perfect embodiment of the prideful light unto himself apostate I described earlier in the thread. I will bow out of this thread to avoid further temptations tomlash out at you.

Seek humility and repent please. I have seen the end of your road many times on and off my mission. You will not find happiness there. Good luck.

[mfbukowski]

Interesting. So for LDS, a miracle is just an event which cannot be currently explained? This actually helps me understand much. Then again, is this official doctrine? Ah, that bugger of a question

It's ambiguous.

Here's about the best you are going to get as far as a church source- http://www.lds.org/topics/miracles?lang=eng

But it is commonly believed that God operates through natural laws and rarely if ever supersedes them. The laws of mercy and justice are seen as natural laws

Alma 42

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says this:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Miracles

A miracle is a beneficial event brought about through divine power that mortals do not understand and of themselves cannot duplicate. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in the reality of miracles as a consequence of their belief in the existence of God and of his power and goodness.

The common belief is that God operates through science but we do not understand it completely. That is consistent with the idea of spirit matter and various other beliefs, including the idea that all of knowledge can be seen as one whole, once we understand everything.

[Ahab]

Your premises do not support your conclusions.

For example? I'd like to see some evidence to support your conclusion on that.

I also do not limit my conception of all that is to this one Universe.

Even if you believe there is more than one place, all of those places combined can be summed up and labeled the one place where all of those places exist.

I am being accused of heresy now for disagreeing with you?

More of a tongue in cheek comment, yet again. Try to keep a smile on your face, my friend. I still like you.

The reason I called you a heretic is because you don't agree with what God has revealed, from my perspective, which is usually what gets someone labeled as a heretic. To you, I'm probably the heretic, though, right? Well, right back atcha, and just in case you're not calling me one, I'm still calling you one anyway (again, on the basis for why someone gets called one).

Someone did not read Joseph Smith's comments about how a follower of Christ can err and still follow Christ.

Still follow Christ, to some extent, yes. But how about when God reveals something through Jesus Christ, like to the Church at large, and yet someone in the Church doesn't believe it even though they read or hear the idea or thought that was given by God through one of his servants? That would mean they weren't fully coming to Christ, even though they could still be coming part of the way. Who knows, maybe with more time you'll come all of the way. I know I still have a ways to go yet, but at least I accept what I recognize as revelation from God, and I think I know how to tell what it is.

Someone also seems to imagIne that his conclusions, although not taught by the Brethren, are binding on the membership and it is heresy to disagree with them.

Everything I'm sharing is something I have heard or read from the brethren holding the keys at some point in Church history.

What do you call it when someone doesn't accept what they say but yet they have read or heard what they have said?

Someone also imagines vainly that all ideas he does not agree with come from Satan.

Nope, just those that are in opposition to the ideas I know are from God.

Someone is also the perfect embodiment of the prideful light unto himself apostate I described earlier in the thread. I will bow out of this thread to avoid further temptations to lash out at you.

My light comes from God, and I'm simply trying to share that light with others. It's what we're all supposed to be doing, rather than hiding our light under a bushel. I'm going to continue ot let it shine.

Seek humility and repent please.

I think part of the reason I'm able to keep learning from God is because I'm willing to humble myself and repent when I need to, or at least try my best to be how I need to be. No need to tell me to do something I already know I should do, when I need to. Just realize that what you think is wrong isn't necessarily wrong, and that to find out what is right we need to listen and accept what God tells us.

I have seen the end of your road many times on and off my mission. You will not find happiness there. Good luck.

Well at least you wished me luck, or good fortune. Thank you for that, and I hope you will fare well. Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab