Let'S Say Grace

[CV75]

Hmm. I wonder if all of those things, and more, can be regarded as growing from grace to grace.

To me, the terms “receiving grace for grace” and “continuing from grace to grace” (D&C 93: 12, 13), are tied to the many attributes of godliness and the gradients of development and advancement therein. D&C 50:40 refers to this as well. (Incidentally, D&C 105:25 indicates that grace is an attribute that we ourselves can possess).

D&C 20: 30-32 speak of justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (cleansing) coming by grace, and that we can also “fall from grace” by doing things that reverse the forgiveness and cleansing we have received.

When we say "enduring to the end" we are talking about a process that takes time and will have an end. I think it's helpful to realize the purpose of all of this "progress" is to become like or more like our Father in heaven, until we are perfected in him. It is a journey, and it's all about what we will be.

I agree -- looking at this as a process facilitates hope and patience.

[CV75]

the mechanism for salvation.

Would you describe the mechanism for (of?) salvation (I think there was a thread about this some time ago but I did'nt get involved with it).

[CV75]

Not sure if reducing the operation of grace to a check list is going to be very helpful. How big do you want that check list to be?

I am not reducing the operation of grace to a checklist—heaven forbid. Look at it as expanding my understanding of what else might be involved with regards to the Gospel Topics description of grace vis-à-vis the gospel or doctrine of Christ. We often reduce it to the five elements listed in the OP, so I am trying to think it through, as I take the inclusion of the word “includes” in the GT description to be an invitation to consider, observe and ponder what else might be involved.

In another thread I tried to think of another word for grace, and came up with "goodness" as a possible alternative. Another good word that can be substituted for it is "favour". When we do those thing that are pleasing in the sight of God (or seek to do in our hearts), we bring ourselves into favor with God, or merit His favor, and He gives us more abundantly of His Spirit, which is the only way that "grace" can be administered, as far as I can tell. It both enables us to accomplish the task assigned to us, as well as sanctifying us so we can enter into His presence. I like the meaning implied in the following verses:

3 Nephi 19:

25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.

3 Nephi 19:

30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.

His countenance "smiling upon them" means that they gained His favor, and they becoming "white as Jesus" means that they received of His Spirit (grace) to their sanctification. Thus grace is the enabling and sanctifying power of God that is administered to us by His Spirit when we do those things that are pleasing in His sight (or seek to do in our hearts), thus bringing ourselves into favor with God.

These are great examples of the Lord demonstrating His grace in tangible, observable ways.

I too have tried to think of alternatives for the word “grace” as well – I came up with “godliness,” which incorporates all His perfect attributes, which He wants us to possess as well. Some synonyms I think also apply when taken in a spiritual sense: adroitness (skill, ability), beauty, comeliness, consideration, cultivation (completeness), decency, ease, pleasantness, refinement, symmetry (wholeness, oneness). Goodness and favour seem to reflect the idea as well. I think all these terms within the context of His perfect love could describe divine grace.

[CV75]

The command to "sanctify yourselves" is directed to those who are already faithful converts. And I don't think that it implies that somehow the atonement is cut out of the loop, and that it is possible to sanctify onesself. It is saying, using loose language, that they must put faith in Christ and allow him to sanctify them.

Since the Christ (who is full of truth and truth) was prepared from before the foundation of the world, and His atonement was prepared from the foundation of the world, I believe it is impossible to cut either His grace or His atonement out of any process involved in the plan of salvation, from our pre-mortal spirit life through exaltation.

I agree that when we are commanded to sanctify ourselves, purify our hearts, cleanse our hands and feet, etc., we are being commanded to have faith in Christ and repent, and so prepare to better keep our covenants so as to serve Him better. This addresses the “trying,” “enduring” and “doing” aspects of receiving grace.

Assuming Jesus was perfectly sanctified from the beginning, and fulfilled His mortal mission as a sinless, sanctified person, He only had to “sanctify Himself” in terms of making consistently correct choices in the second estate (receiving grace for grace unto fullness). On the other hand, if He was never filthy, then why would or how could He be cleansed, or of what did He need to be cleansed—so maybe He isn’t sanctified at all but has always been perfectly clean.

But assuming the former, and that we, like Jesus, advanced to a certain level of godliness (I’ll call it sanctification, which it may not properly be called) in the pre-existence, we too are expected to abide accordingly in the flesh. We are expected to make choices with the same spiritual power we were born with, consistent with the same spiritual makeup we developed before. Since none of us shared the same stature as Jesus, we sin, but by doing our best with the spirituality we came to earth with, we “sanctify ourselves.” This addresses the “trying,” “enduring” and “doing” aspects of receiving grace and is how we recognize the Light of Christ, have faith, repent, make the covenants, etc. in this life.

I think God’s grace is also manifest when we have fallen below God’s expectation of us to “sanctify ourselves” to our initial, inherent capacity or godliness and He lengthens out His arm “all the day long” to bring us back despite that.

[Ahab]

I am making a distinction between the mechanism of salvation (which is grace and the atonement only) and the conditions for salvation.

No, you're wrong. The mechanism of salvation isn't grace and the atonement only, as you are claiming. That's a false claim. It isn't right. Don't do that.

The condition for salvation that every Christian recognizes is faith.

Faith without works is dead, being alone. When someone has true faith, they do good works which show that they have faith. If they didn't do the good works, they wouldn't be showing any faith, because they wouldn't have any, otherwise they would be showing the good works that go along with having faith from God.

Some (like Catholics and the Restorationists) believe that works (the sacraments) are an additional condition.

Partaking of the sacraments is simply one of the many other things we need to do and will do if we really have faith from God. God gives us the faith we need but we need to accept it from him and once we do we will show our faith by the good works we do that go along with having faith from God on some point. Having faith from God isn't all inclusive, either, though. A person could have faith that Jesus is the Christ but not have faith that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, for example, and while they would have some faith from God they would be lacking some more faith from God they could have if they would accept the faith God would give them to know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We need to grow from faith to faith, too, just as we need to grow from grace to grace.

But nobody except modern Bible-Dictionary-thumping Mormons believes that good works are part of the mechanism for salvation.

Well, I don't know if we're the only ones who believe that, but we certainly do believe good works go along with having faith from God.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Ahab

[DBMormon]

See what I've started!!!

[CV75]

the mechanism for salvation.

Actually, I found what i was thinking of (The Mechanics of the Atonement") and did particpate quite a bit in it, as you did:

I think the gist of the debate was whether God directly administers punishment, whether we punish ourselves, whether we are punished by consequence of eternal law,whether all three operate concurrently, and whether the primary mode of operation and its effect varies according to the phase of the plan of salvation we are in and how far advanced we are spiritually within those phases.

I suppose the same considerations might be in play for salvation and grace.

[Cobalt-70]

Would you describe the mechanism for (of?) salvation (I think there was a thread about this some time ago but I did'nt get involved with it).

The mechanism for salvation would be the atonement of Christ. Faith would be a condition for grace, and good works would either be (1) a condition for grace (Catholics, Restorationists, grace-oriented Mormons, and possibly Joseph Smith after June 1829) or (2) a consequence of grace (Protestants, and sola fide Mormons to the extent they exist, and possibly Joseph Smith before June 1829).

According to McConkie Mormonism, on the other hand, the mechanism for salvation is works, supplemented by the atonement of Christ. I don't think Joseph Smith ever taught that. if he did, it wasn't until the 1840s. But I really doubt that he taught it at all. I think that in the 1840s, Smith was teaching the more gnostic idea that salvation comes from knowledge, and that what you might call grace was actually knowledge, or the glory of god transmitted through the light of Christ.

[Cobalt-70]

No, you're wrong. The mechanism of salvation isn't grace and the atonement only, as you are claiming. That's a false claim. It isn't right. Don't do that.

Faith without works is dead, being alone. When someone has true faith, they do good works which show that they have faith. If they didn't do the good works, they wouldn't be showing any faith, because they wouldn't have any, otherwise they would be showing the good works that go along with having faith from God.

Partaking of the sacraments is simply one of the many other things we need to do and will do if we really have faith from God. God gives us the faith we need but we need to accept it from him and once we do we will show our faith by the good works we do that go along with having faith from God on some point. Having faith from God isn't all inclusive, either, though. A person could have faith that Jesus is the Christ but not have faith that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, for example, and while they would have some faith from God they would be lacking some more faith from God they could have if they would accept the faith God would give them to know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. We need to grow from faith to faith, too, just as we need to grow from grace to grace.

Well, I don't know if we're the only ones who believe that, but we certainly do believe good works go along with having faith from God.

You are confusing the sole fide (faith only) issue with the sola gratia (grace only) issue. It is possible to believe, as Catholics and Restorationists do, that faith is not the only condition for salvation, but that it is only through the grace of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.

Although it is not what the Bible Dictionary teaches, sola gratia is clearly what the book of Mormon teaches: "[R]emember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come." (Hel. 5:9). You can make an argument (with at least some credibility) that the Book of Mormon teaches that some good works might be a conditions for salvation. However, the Book of Mormon does not teach that we are saved by the mechanism of our works, or by things like blood atonement, which Brigham Young taught. It wasn't really until the 20th century that Mormons started believing that they could save themselves by working hard at it, using the atonement merely as a catalyst for further saving work.

[DBMormon]

Cobalt-70

Although it is not what the Bible Dictionary teaches, sola gratia is clearly what the book of Mormon teaches: "[R]emember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come." (Hel. 5:9). You can make an argument (with at least some credibility) that the Book of Mormon teaches that some good works might be a conditions for salvation. However, the Book of Mormon does not teach that we are saved by the mechanism of our works, or by things like blood atonement, which Brigham Young taught. It wasn't really until the 20th century that Mormons started believing that they could save themselves by working hard at it, using the atonement merely as a catalyst for further saving work.

you word things so much better then me - you get one rep point....... yeahhhhhhh

[CV75]

The mechanism for salvation would be the atonement of Christ. Faith would be a condition for grace, and good works would either be (1) a condition for grace (Catholics, Restorationists, grace-oriented Mormons, and possibly Joseph Smith after June 1829) or (2) a consequence of grace (Protestants, and sola fide Mormons to the extent they exist, and possibly Joseph Smith before June 1829).

According to McConkie Mormonism, on the other hand, the mechanism for salvation is works, supplemented by the atonement of Christ. I don't think Joseph Smith ever taught that. if he did, it wasn't until the 1840s. But I really doubt that he taught it at all. I think that in the 1840s, Smith was teaching the more gnostic idea that salvation comes from knowledge, and that what you might call grace was actually knowledge, or the glory of god transmitted through the light of Christ.

I see how faith in Christ results first in good works and their attendant and resulting experiences, and then in the attendant and resulting knowledge. I see how faith, good works, experience and knowledge are both a condition and a consequence of grace. We hear testimonies of people experiencing what they call God’s grace before, during after the “faith-works-experience-knowledge cycle.”

Considering grace as the actual “knowledge, or the glory of God transmitted through the light of Christ” is a nice way to put it (see zerinus’ and my attempts to find synonyms for grace). For me, the transmission of godliness to us, describes the mechanics, whether they be spiritual or physical.

This would also allow people to receive grace by degree, which is conditioned upon some eternal principle jointly shared or controlled by God and His children. These principles seem to be agency and faith. In other words, God cannot force exalting grace upon those who will not receive it, and (referencing the brother of Jared’s experience) those who because of faith now see, cannot “be kept from within the veil.”

Where the atonement makes this all possible, we can say that people minimally experience God’s grace simply by virtue of their pre-mortal qualifying or choosing to enter mortality to be tested and then resurrected, even without exercising faith and gaining spiritual knowledge in the second estate.

[CV75]

It wasn't really until the 20th century that Mormons started believing that they could save themselves by working hard at it, using the atonement merely as a catalyst for further saving work.

I can see this being an attitude held by those who had to work hard to succeed (or even survive) in life, especially in the early 1900’s Intermountain West, and can see that this colored their doctrinal understanding. I understand it was part of the Puritan ethic even earlier, so I can see how this could also be passed on between generations into modern times.

People also seem to be predisposed or oriented toward one way of thinking or another, and also change orientation, by innumerable factors throughout their lives. But if they have the Holy Ghost and are doing all they can / trying / enduring to the end, they are heading in the right direction and receive God’s grace regardless of any misconceptions they may have about it or how it really works. They become more godly people. From my own experience, as I've improved in keeping the covenants over the years I've gained more of God's grace and rely upon Him and His grace with growing dependency, prompting me to keep my covenants even better. Sometimes keeping the covenants better means more work, and sometimes it means with more charity, appreciation and intent.

This is why I had the two questions. I believe God can show us such grace because He did all the work to prepare the outcome for us. He performed a work that allowed Him to express His grace so fully. As we follow suit, we learn do the same thing with the same attitude. We prepare for others’ (including God’s) happiness by selfless, charitable service, enabled to do so out of the grace we have been given, whether we got it before this life (by way of pre-mortal development) or during this life (by way of the Gospel as presented to us).

[CV75]

Here’s a great example of grace in action (2 Nephi 26:24-33):

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.