Are The Lds Temple Rituals Supposed To Be Anything Like The Rituals Of The Old Testament Temple?

[Tacenda]

I watched something on temple ceremonies performed in the Old Testament temple. It described alot of interesting facts of what this temple was for. It also talked about things that contradict what our LDS temples are used for. None of the things we do in temples like baptisms for the dead, endowments, weddings, sealings,etc. were done in the ancient temple. Things like sacrificing animals and how there is the holy of holies room that was visited only once a year by the only High Priest to shed blood on the Ark of the covenant that was in a cubicle that was made out of 270 tons of gold. The oxen font that was placed outside in front of the temple was for washing before entering the temple. Outside the temple they were sacrificing animals, so blood was everywhere. Also, those that entered the temple were not worthy, the temple was all about sacrifice for sin. There was only supposed to be one temple and after Jesus rent the veil, he is our temple now. Scripture I found below...

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was

rent

in twain from the top to the bottom—Matthew 27:50-51.

A quote by Mark E. Petersen taken from this talk.......

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1980/10/why-we-build-temples

In biblical times sacred ordinances were administered in holy edifices for the spiritual salvation of ancient Israel. The buildings thus used were not synagogues nor any other ordinary places of worship. They were specially constructed for this particular purpose. While the people traveled in the wilderness, they used a portable tabernacle. This tabernacle is called “the temple of the Lord,” and it was there, for instance, that Samuel’s mother went to pray. (

1 Sam. 1:9

.) When they ceased their wanderings and obtained a stable government, they built a glorious temple in Jerusalem to take its place.

Following the pattern of biblical days, the Lord again in our day has provided these ordinances for the salvation of all who will believe and directs that temples be built in which to perform those sacred rites.

Anciently, to obtain the

saving

blessings of the Lord, it was necessary for an individual to do two things:

(1) Live the righteous life described in the commandments of the Lord, and

(2)

Participate

in the saving ordinances administered by the Lord’s truly authorized servants.

sh—Hebrews 10:19-20.

Is our temple supposed to be like the temple of old, or as some anti mormons say, did Joseph Smith start the temple around the time of his polygamy? To make secret oaths?

Are there any scriptures in the BoM that talk of any ordinances performed in LDS temples?

Edited September 4, 2012 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

Baptisms for the dead weren't performed in Temples because Christ didn't introduce that until after he was resurrected

[volgadon]

The oxen font that was placed outside in front of the temple was for washing before entering the temple. Outside the temple they were sacrificing animals, so blood was everywhere.

Immensley oversimplifies things. The washing was to make the priests clean less from actual dirt than a moral-religious status.

[Que]

"None of the things we do in temples like baptisms for the dead, endowments, weddings, sealings,etc. were done in the ancient temple."

It could seem that way to someone who assumes that the "2nd Temple" rituals as performed under Levitical authority were the only temple rituals. As I am sure someone will chime in about, the 1st Temple, under Melchizadek authority, may have been quite different.

"There was only supposed to be one temple and after Jesus rent the veil, he is our temple now. Scripture I found below..."

I fail to see how the quoted scripture supports anything like the conclusion made...

Q

[Kevin Christensen]

See, for instance, John Welch here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=840

and here

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=19&num=1&id=508

And here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=31&chapid=119

And me here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=2&chapid=35

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[volgadon]

Also, those that entered the temple were not worthy, the temple was all about sacrifice for sin.

What documentary was this? It seems tendentious, and, well, ignorant.

Here is what Othmar Keel had to say in p. 126 of "Symbolism in the Biblical World."

According to the informarion provided by the psalms, the pilgrim addressed the priest (or priests) sitting at the temple gates (cf. 1 Sam 1:9), asking who might set foot on the mountain of Yahweh (cf Pss 15:1; 24:3). The gates of the Jerusalem temple, as "Gates of Righteousness," were open only to the "righteous" (Ps 118:19-20). sdq, hoeever, connotes not only righteousness, but the salvation which is associated with it. Thus, the "Gates of Righteousness" are at the same time the "Gates of the Realm of Salvation." According to Pss 15 and 24, this salvation can be attained only under certain specific conditions. These conditions may be summarized under the wider category of "conformity with communal conduct." He who professes fulfillment of the conditions (cf Deut 26:13-14; Job 31) is pronounced righteous (sdyq) and may pass through the temple gates confident of receiving blessing from Yahweh (Ps 24:5; cf 15:5). Surprisingly, the subject of these two psalms is not simply cultic impurity. In analogous texts from Egypt and Mesopotamia, cultic impurity always plays an important role. In Pss 24 and 15 (cf also Ps 50), however, the chief wall which separates God and man is (ethical) misconduct toward one's coreligionists. This wall cannot be overcome by magical-elemental means (guardian spirits, holy water). One can only attempt to reduce the wall by heeding the prophetic advice that under such conditions a temple visit is futile (cf Ps 50:16-21; 24:5; Amos 5:21-24; Isa 1:10-17; etc.). The suppliant of Ps 73 is aware that only by preserving his purity of heart (Ps 73:1, 13) can he maintain his relation to God, and only thus can he stand on firm ground (cf Pss 73:15; 15:5c). Those who participate in the cultus without fulfiling the condition of purity proceed on slippery, shaky ground (Ps 73:17-20).

Temple worship required of the participants adherence to a standard of worthiness. The temple was not all about animal sacrifices (you forgot grain and wine offerings as well), the temple is a meeting place between heaven and earth, where rituals are performed granting the participants access to salvation. This is true now, and was true then.

[USU78]

If the only interesting things going on in Solomon's Temple were the sacrificial burnings and the once-a-year trip into the Holy of Holies by the High Priest, why did it have 3 stories?

[volgadon]

1) . . . ]Priest 2) [ . . . at all ti]mes some of the Sons of [Zadok, the priests] will instruct me (us) 3) [ . . . ] the congregation of the Sons of Zadok[, the priests . . . ] 4) [ . . . ] regarding the rules of purity and im[purity . . .] 5) [ . . . ]the law(s) of the LORD (they will adjudicate) [ . . . ] 6) [ . . . His holy things] they [shall] sanctify, but the ordinary[ and the holy they shall differentiate between . . . ] 7) [ . . . the]re they will encircle the platforms of [the altar . . . ] 8 ) [ . . . and with] song they will chant the Hallel to H[im . . . ] 9) [ . . . ]The LORD will give strength to His people; [the LORD will bless His people with peace . . . ]

(Ps 29:11a)

From a Zadokite fragment not attested in the DSS, as reconsctructed by Wacholder, "The New Damascus Document," p. 6-7. I am not saying that this exactly conforms to LDS practice, nor that we know precisely the purpose, but the ritual of circling the altar was considered an important part of temple practice. Other Jewish sources support this idea, perhaps even shedding additional light on its significance. The Mishnah (t. Sukkah 4:5) relates how, “Each day they [the priests] made one circuit around the altar and they would say: "Please O Lord, save; Please O Lord, save us!" (Ps. 118:25). R. Yehudah states: "[they would say] Ani wa-Ho, save us! Ani wa-Ho, save us!” Urbach surmised that this is a mumbled version of ana (please) and the Tetragammaton.[1] It was mumbled so that the unrighteous would not hear it because of the power inherent in that name. Zadokites and rabbinic sages were not exactly the best of friends, so any shared traditions can be given some weight. Once we start listening to the texts, they have a lot to tell us.

[1]E. E. Urbach, The Sages, p. 127-28.

Edited September 4, 2012 by volgadon

[cesc101]

Joseph Smith had performed Temple Endowment before introducing Polygamy to the Elders, so what's with "secret oaths" you're referring to?

[Garden Girl]

Good Morning Tacenda...

Sounds like you need to do some research...

There are several articles and papers available through FAIR that address ancient temple rituals... one of my favorites is by John Tvedtnes and is titled: "Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Practices." I believe it is still available online.

In the opening paragraphs of this article, Tvedtnes states that a number of early Jewish and Christian documents deal with elements found in modern LDS temples... he also refers us to Nibley, Lundquist, Parry, Ricks, and Brown for additional writings.

Tvedtnes states: "Just as an example, let me note that I have, to date, found fifteen early Christian documents that speak of baptism for the dead, along with several Mandaean and Jewish texts. This information will be included in my article 'Baptism for the Dead in Early Christianity," scheduled for publication later this year in another FARMS temple volume."

Your positive statement that none of "the things we do in temples like baptism for the dead... were done in the ancient temple" is misleading.

Another paper I found quite interesting was presented at the Thirtieth Annual Symposium on the Archaeology of the Scriptures by Dr. Lynn M. Hilton, held at BYU on Sept 26, 1981... and is titled "The Hand as a Cup in Ancient Temple Worship." This refers to the "spoons" of pure gold donated to the temple by the 12 tribes (Ex.25:29). The opening paragraph of the paper states, "The hand in the shape of a cup was an important part of the ancient temple ceremony in Bible times..." and refers to the burning of incense (Num.7:84-86) in a "kaph" (Hebrew meaning "hollow of the hand," or the hand in cupping shape). And..."incense spoons, or hands in cupping shape, are seen not only in ancient art of Palestine and Syria, but also in Yemen and Mexico." A picture of priests carrying such spoons of burning incense was included in a paper from Father Berrnardino de Saghagun's work titled "A Pentential Rite of the Ancient Mexicans" Papers, Peabody Museum of American Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard Univ., Vol. 1, No. 7m 1940).

edit to add: I recommend Nibley's "Temple and Cosmos" particularly in regard to the "Prayer Circle."

GG

Edited September 4, 2012 by Garden Girl

[Tacenda]

Joseph Smith had performed Temple Endowment before introducing Polygamy to the Elders, so what's with "secret oaths" you're referring to?

As I said before, I have heard this or read this put forth by anti mormons. They apparently think that it had something to do with keeping secret that some of them were practising polgamy.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Tacenda

[volgadon]

I watched something on temple ceremonies performed in the Old Testament temple.

Is there a title or link?

[volgadon]

GG, here is the link to the Tvedtnes article. http://www.fairlds.o...emple-practices

Edited September 4, 2012 by volgadon

[Tacenda]

Is there a title or link?

I hate to say where you'll discount it immediately but it is definitely non lds. It's probably the reason my faith is suspended in air of the truthfulness of the LDS church, this particular program.

[volgadon]

I hate to say where you'll discount it immediately but it is definitely non lds. It's probably the reason my faith is suspended in air of the truthfulness of the LDS church, this particular program.

It is not as if the information you have shared from the program is helping its credibility in my eyes, so giving the program's title will at least give me the chance to view it. We can then discuss any specific points. Of course, this is assuming it doesn't display LDS rituals.

Edited September 4, 2012 by volgadon

[Jude2]

If the only interesting things going on in Solomon's Temple were the sacrificial burnings and the once-a-year trip into the Holy of Holies by the High Priest, why did it have 3 stories?

I've been wondering who did the dusting in there?

[cesc101]

They apparently think that it had something to do with keeping secret that some of them were practising polgamy.

Yea,

It sure makes them feel like they've solved a mystery!

hmm..., 'blind leaders of the blind'.

[volgadon]

I've been wondering who did the dusting in there?

Levites.

[Freedom]

Rituals change - the endowment today is significantly different than the endowment of the 1960s. If you read exodus, you will find that the clothing is virtually the same other than the color - we wear white today, but it used to be red and blue.

[WalkerW]

I hate to say where you'll discount it immediately but it is definitely non lds. It's probably the reason my faith is suspended in air of the truthfulness of the LDS church, this particular program.

Your hesitation should make it questionable as well. Just because something is critical of Mormonism doesn't mean it can't be good stuff (e.g. The New Mormon Challenge).

As for things like the endowment, what exactly is the endowment? Is it not a reenactment or ritual drama of the Creation? If you think the temples of old did nothing of the sort, I suggest you begin your research again.

[Saints Alive]

This is a real good video (I liked it anyway) that shows the similarities:

Edited September 4, 2012 by Saints Alive

[volgadon]

This is a real good video (I liked it anyway) that shows the similarities:

[media=]

David Tayman posts here.

[hagoth7]

I'm of the opinion that Nephites colonized ancient Europe and that European Freemasonry contains some of the remnants of Nephite temple tradition. That at least offers an explanation for some of the similarities between Freemasonry and modern temple ritual. Remains to be seen how much Nephite ritual differed from Old Testament ritual.

[David T]

David Tayman posts here.

Parenthetically, the domain visionsofthekingdom.com just lapsed this past month. I had begun the transition to http://improvementera.com a little while ago, and had kept them both, but just decided to let it lapse. I changed the name with the change in focus to be more concerning 19th Century Church History. Old Temple-themed stuff is still up in the archives, though.

Edited September 5, 2012 by David T

[volgadon]

Rituals change - the endowment today is significantly different than the endowment of the 1960s. If you read exodus, you will find that the clothing is virtually the same other than the color - we wear white today, but it used to be red and blue.

It was white when entering the holy of holies.