Are The Lds Temple Rituals Supposed To Be Anything Like The Rituals Of The Old Testament Temple?

[Tacenda]

Only if you are trying to say with this that your questions are insincere. I hope that is not what you are getting at.

I thought your question was about the absence of such imagery and symbolism in the First Temple, rather than from what sources Joseph Smith supposedly borrowed the temple rites and symbolism. As for being able to find this, as if I suddenly scrambled in panic for any straw to clutch, I've known about the Mari fresco since 2nd or 3rd grade (pardon the term) in elementary school. We had the Olam Hatanach series on the various biblical books, which was a serious effort to make substantial biblical scholarship available to the broad public, especially in the school systems. The Genesis volume included that picture, explaining the link to temples, and how Genesis also uses the life-giving symbolism of ancient temples, the dwelling place of God, along with royal imagery.

I know that was my OP wasn't it!?!? I don't know how it all ended up being turned upside down and now I'm showing where JS may have used Freemasonry in the temple.

I apologise that it may seem like your posts went unnoticed, it hasn't and all the research you've done and have already done previous and the knowledge you shared have definitely showed me that maybe there is a reason for the LDS temple to be in the present.

I need to work on that part of my testimony, I guess. But I appreciate the civil manner you have addressed it. I wish there were more people on this board like you. Can we now close this thread?!?! haha.

[USU78]

I know that was my OP wasn't it!?!? I don't know how it all ended up being turned upside down and now I'm showing where JS may have used Freemasonry in the temple.

I apologise that it may seem like your posts went unnoticed, it hasn't and all the research you've done and have already done previous and the knowledge you shared have definitely showed me that maybe there is a reason for the LDS temple to be in the present.

I need to work on that part of my testimony, I guess. But I appreciate the civil manner you have addressed it. I wish there were more people on this board like you. Can we now close this thread?!?! haha.

There is no question that many of the specifics, especially of the pre-1990ish Endowment Ceremony, came from the vocabulary provided by Freemasonry.

There is also no question that there was some bad blood between Masons and Mormons for quite a while because of this, but the rift is healed, Mormons may now once again become Masons, and that fine old institution now has access to some terrific Mormon-types in pursuing its grand work in making our communities and our people better.

Adopting a vocabulary, however, doesn't mean that the vocabulary means the same thing in both venues: it plainly does not. I can take all the words from Moby **** and create a series of Penthouse Forum Letters, if I so choose. Arguably JSJr, with G-d's inspiration, builded better than those who created the esoteric Masonic rites with the same stones. We cannot/should not go into details on a public forum, but those who have, with perhaps special dispensation from 50 East North Temple, have. I encourage you to read up on them if the subject interests you.

Just don't, please, get caught up in the anti-Mason bigotry that leads to the anti-Mormon screed that, since there are Masonic elements in our Temple Ritual, we are even more even because of the evil of Freemasonry. You'll find that those who make the argument tend to come from the conspiracy theorist tribe.

[Tacenda]

There is no question that many of the specifics, especially of the pre-1990ish Endowment Ceremony, came from the vocabulary provided by Freemasonry.

There is also no question that there was some bad blood between Masons and Mormons for quite a while because of this, but the rift is healed, Mormons may now once again become Masons, and that fine old institution now has access to some terrific Mormon-types in pursuing its grand work in making our communities and our people better.

Adopting a vocabulary, however, doesn't mean that the vocabulary means the same thing in both venues: it plainly does not. I can take all the words from Moby **** and create a series of Penthouse Forum Letters, if I so choose. Arguably JSJr, with G-d's inspiration, builded better than those who created the esoteric Masonic rites with the same stones. We cannot/should not go into details on a public forum, but those who have, with perhaps special dispensation from 50 East North Temple, have. I encourage you to read up on them if the subject interests you.

Just don't, please, get caught up in the anti-Mason bigotry that leads to the anti-Mormon screed that, since there are Masonic elements in our Temple Ritual, we are even more even because of the evil of Freemasonry. You'll find that those who make the argument tend to come from the conspiracy theorist tribe.

Yes, I know there's alot of the conspiracy tribe out there. I can be one if I'm not careful. I know that at first when I walked around Salt Lake at Temple Square I noticed the lion, beehive, the all seeing eye, the pentagram etc., it freaked me out. I wanted to go into the church headquarters and speak to someone really bad, but now after several years I've mellowed out after much research. I'm aware that devil worshipers have adopted masonry signs and symbols and are using them in their cult and that it didn't start out that way at all. And that Freemasonry is really like a boys club that started out with masons.

[ERayR]

Yes, I know there's alot of the conspiracy tribe out there. I can be one if I'm not careful. I know that at first when I walked around Salt Lake at Temple Square I noticed the lion, beehive, the all seeing eye, the pentagram etc., it freaked me out. I wanted to go into the church headquarters and speak to someone really bad, but now after several years I've mellowed out after much research. I'm aware that devil worshipers have adopted masonry signs and symbols and are using them in their cult and that it didn't start out that way at all. And that Freemasonry is really like a boys club that started out with masons.

Tacenda with all due respect I think referring to Masonry as a boys club is a bit disrespectful and dismissive.

Edited September 6, 2012 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

Tacenda with all due respect I think referring to Masonry as a boys club is a bit disrespectful and dismissive.

It's a club that won't allow women in. I'm sorry if you feel I've been disrespectful. It's much more than just a boys club. It has ideals and helps the joiner to make himself & others lives better, I'm guessing on this of course.

[volgadon]

I know that was my OP wasn't it!?!? I don't know how it all ended up being turned upside down and now I'm showing where JS may have used Freemasonry in the temple.

I apologise that it may seem like your posts went unnoticed, it hasn't and all the research you've done and have already done previous and the knowledge you shared have definitely showed me that maybe there is a reason for the LDS temple to be in the present.

I need to work on that part of my testimony, I guess. But I appreciate the civil manner you have addressed it. I wish there were more people on this board like you. Can we now close this thread?!?! haha.

Perhaps it is just me, bu the "haha" and gushing praise ring false. Never mind, though. I'm not sure what you mean by "maybe there is a reason for the LDS temple to be in the present." If we ignore history for a moment and look at it from the PoV of a believing LDS, then of course there is a reason for LDS temples to exist. You ought to know that as well as anyone, even if struggling with a testimony. Same as I can appreciate an Orthodox coronation without having to believe in it.

[ERayR]

[

Edited September 6, 2012 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

Perhaps it is just me, bu the "haha" and gushing praise ring false. Never mind, though. I'm not sure what you mean by "maybe there is a reason for the LDS temple to be in the present." If we ignore history for a moment and look at it from the PoV of a believing LDS, then of course there is a reason for LDS temples to exist. You ought to know that as well as anyone, even if struggling with a testimony. Same as I can appreciate an Orthodox coronation without having to believe in it.

[media=]

Well I'm a hick from Utah, but I understand If you may think I'm making fun of a serious matter. Maybe I've gone to the dark side and forgotten how special and symbolic the temple can be. Maybe it's true I'm anti and I can't admit it. My gushing as you put it is just me being thankful for politeness.

Really loved the video of this couples marriage ceremony. It did remind me of a ceremony in our temple and humbled me. Sorry if I've gushed again, it's my personality.

[ERayR]

It's a club that won't allow women in. I'm sorry if you feel I've been disrespectful. It's much more than just a boys club. It has ideals and helps the joiner to make himself & others lives better, I'm guessing on this of course.

And La Leche is a women's club that doesn't take men as members. Your depiction is still disrespectful and dismissive.

[Tacenda]

And La Leche is a women's club that doesn't take men as members. Your depiction is still disrespectful and dismissive.

ERayR keep digging making jabs if it makes you feel better, I've felt remorse now let me move on.

[wenglund]

Wengland and USU78, you both know that apologist even say that JS used some masonry in the temple ceremony. Here is one from Fairlds.com, why do you insist this is me just using anti rhetoric? I'm getting a little tired of your way of defending the church and think you both need to rethink your style of doing that.

http://www.fairlds.o...n-temple-ritual

"To sum up, Mr. Norton has produced a list but no context for the list. It is clear that Freemasonry and its traditions played a role in the development of the endowment ritual but not the degree that Mr. Norton would like to suggest. Further he also brings up only similarities not the differences between the two. For example the central story in the endowment is the allegory of Adam and Eve. In Masonry it is the story of the master builder of Solomon’s Temple Hiram Abiff. Whole vast sections of the Masonic ritual are not and have never been found in the temple endowment."

Or this site: http://www.lds-mormo...m/morgan2.shtml Not sure if it's anti or not, I just stumbled onto it just now.

CFR that I have accused you of "using anti rhetoric."

And, I never denied the relatively nominal amount of Masonic language in the temple ceremony. I simply and effectively countered, with requested documentation, your assertion about where Joseph may have come to understand the symbolism of the creation and garden narrative and when he became a Mason in relation thereto. You were demonstrably incorrect. So, if you are going to complain about the way I supposedly defend Mormonism, at least have the good graces to correctly inform yourself about what it is I have actually said and what exactly I have argued against.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

ERayR keep digging making jabs if it makes you feel better, I've felt remorse now let me move on.

I was just answering your post. I am sorry you are taking heat right now but when you post you are inviting discussion.

[volgadon]

Well I'm a hick from Utah, but I understand If you may think I'm making fun of a serious matter. Maybe I've gone to the dark side and forgotten how special and symbolic the temple can be. Maybe it's true I'm anti and I can't admit it. My gushing as you put it is just me being thankful for politeness.

Really loved the video of this couples marriage ceremony. It did remind me of a ceremony in our temple and humbled me. Sorry if I've gushed again, it's my personality.

What I mean is that it can be hard gauging tone and intent on a message board. Things like "haha" when there are no discernible jokes make one wonder. I apologise for any misunderstanding.

[Tacenda]

CFR that I have accused you of "using anti rhetoric."

And, I never denied the relatively nominal amount of Masonic language in the temple ceremony. I simply and effectively countered, with requested documentation, your assertion about where Joseph may have come to understand the symbolism of the creation and garden narrative and when he became a Mason in relation thereto. You were demonstrably incorrect. So, if you are going to complain about the way I supposedly defend Mormonism, at least have the good graces to correctly inform yourself about what it is I have actually said and what exactly I have argued against.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It was what USU78 said that made me say that, my apologies.

[Tacenda]

I was just answering your post. I am sorry you are taking heat right now but when you post you are inviting discussion.

No problem, I need to have thicker skin and take what I give out.

[KevinG]

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

http://latterdaycomm...on-so-what.html

There is alot of information on this blog that is very telling.

Tsk Tsk Tacenda you wanted references now when given you think a (figurative) wave of the imperial hand can dismiss them. But then again as I pointed out it is irrelevant.

My father is a Mason. I don't know squat about it other than the fact he had his fathers Mason's ring in his jewelry box.

[ERayR]

No problem, I need to have thicker skin and take what I give out.

[Cobalt-70]

The Garden of Eden doesn't? There are plenty of descriptive words that show up in both the Eden passages and the descriptions of the temple.

Also, there is this.

http://fog.ccsf.cc.c...pent/awa017.htm

http://books.google....genesis&f=false

Okay, so some pagan Amorite temple has a frescoe of Isthar with reference to an episode from the epic of Gilgamesh, from which parts of the Genesis myth were possibly derived. You are going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that anything close to the Mormon Endowment ceremony took place in Solomon's temple.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I watched something on temple ceremonies performed in the Old Testament temple. It described alot of interesting facts of what this temple was for. It also talked about things that contradict what our LDS temples are used for. None of the things we do in temples like baptisms for the dead, endowments, weddings, sealings,etc. were done in the ancient temple. Things like sacrificing animals and how there is the holy of holies room that was visited only once a year by the only High Priest to shed blood on the Ark of the covenant that was in a cubicle that was made out of 270 tons of gold. The oxen font that was placed outside in front of the temple was for washing before entering the temple. Outside the temple they were sacrificing animals, so blood was everywhere. Also, those that entered the temple were not worthy, the temple was all about sacrifice for sin. There was only supposed to be one temple and after Jesus rent the veil, he is our temple now. Scripture I found below...

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was

rent

in twain from the top to the bottom—Matthew 27:50-51.

A quote by Mark E. Petersen taken from this talk.......

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1980/10/why-we-build-temples

In biblical times sacred ordinances were administered in holy edifices for the spiritual salvation of ancient Israel. The buildings thus used were not synagogues nor any other ordinary places of worship. They were specially constructed for this particular purpose. While the people traveled in the wilderness, they used a portable tabernacle. This tabernacle is called “the temple of the Lord,” and it was there, for instance, that Samuel’s mother went to pray. (

1 Sam. 1:9

.) When they ceased their wanderings and obtained a stable government, they built a glorious temple in Jerusalem to take its place.

Following the pattern of biblical days, the Lord again in our day has provided these ordinances for the salvation of all who will believe and directs that temples be built in which to perform those sacred rites.

Anciently, to obtain the

saving

blessings of the Lord, it was necessary for an individual to do two things:

(1) Live the righteous life described in the commandments of the Lord, and

(2)

Participate

in the saving ordinances administered by the Lord’s truly authorized servants.

sh—Hebrews 10:19-20.

Is our temple supposed to be like the temple of old, or as some anti mormons say, did Joseph Smith start the temple around the time of his polygamy? To make secret oaths?

Are there any scriptures in the BoM that talk of any ordinances performed in LDS temples?

No since Christ was not In them...

[Cobalt-70]

Joseph didn't become a Mason until the Navuoo period (1840's), whereas the endowment was being spoken of as early as 1835.

The "endowment" was discussed even earlier than that. The first Mormon "endowment" was the ordination of Melchizedek priests in 1831, and then there was talk of endowment in various forms throughout the 1830s. But the Genesis and Masonic-based elements of the modern endowment ritual did not come until after Smith (1) dictated chapters 4-5 of the book of Abraham in 1842, which contain the Genesis story, and (2) became a Freemason around the same time in Nauvoo.

[ERayR]

The "endowment" was discussed even earlier than that. The first Mormon "endowment" was the ordination of Melchizedek priests in 1831, and then there was talk of endowment in various forms throughout the 1830s. But the Genesis and Masonic-based elements of the modern endowment ritual did not come until after Smith (1) dictated chapters 4-5 of the book of Abraham in 1842, which contain the Genesis story, and (2) became a Freemason around the same time in Nauvoo.

Can you tell me how this is somehow relevant to the symbolism of the temple ordinance even if it were copied. The symbolism and what it represents in the temple is not tied to Masonry. Unless you are somehow intimating something wrong with Masonry and are trying to compare the two to denigrate Mormonism. Nah you wouldn't do that. So then why is it relevant?

[volgadon]

Okay, so some pagan Amorite temple has a frescoe of Isthar with reference to an episode from the epic of Gilgamesh, from which parts of the Genesis myth were possibly derived. You are going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that anything close to the Mormon Endowment ceremony took place in Solomon's temple.

You do have the use of buzzwords down to a fine art. What the Mari fresco does is show the kind of imagery and concepts that were used in temples of the Ancient Near East. That the creation and Eden passages employ a good number of them ought to serve as an indicator of its conceptual millieu, and that Solomon's temple used these elements in its design and ritual as well. If we turn to later sources, the communities whose priestly course was serving in the temple would recite the creation account to concide with the priests' service. Ezekiel the Exagogue ritually recast the Exodus story (itself highly reminiscient of the creation and fall) to serve a similar purpose. The Avodah piyutim of Byzantine Judaism are about the high priest's service on the Day of Atonement. They usually tie that in to the creation, often going running into a large number of verses. Ritual retelling and reenactment of the creation and the Garden of Eden in general is very much at home with a temple setting, this is without even going into specifics.

Edited September 7, 2012 by volgadon

[Robert F. Smith]

Okay, so some pagan Amorite temple has a frescoe of Isthar with reference to an episode from the epic of Gilgamesh, from which parts of the Genesis myth were possibly derived. You are going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that anything close to the Mormon Endowment ceremony took place in Solomon's temple.

What is really true, Cobalt, is that you have proven that no matter how many top non-Mormon experts in Bible or ancient Near Eastern lore we cite, you will always take the response of automatic, knee-jerk denial. You are so invested in negativity, that no reasonable or logical discussion means anything to you.

What is really true is that you have no idea of the meaning of the word "endowment," nor what it means in a Mormon context. You have no idea what it might mean (as Jesus said) for the Law to be fulfilled, and you likely have no idea why I just capitalized the word "Law." Without a fundamental inkling of what is going on in standard scholarship, of course you will always take the negative position as a gut reaction to the object of your uncompromising hatred and contempt.

[Robert F. Smith]

Tacenda said:

Are there any scriptures in the BoM that talk of any ordinances performed in LDS temples?

No.

Wrong. I'm not saying that it is easy to spot. Hugh Nibley didn't see it until about 1968. Whole phrases and actions from LDS temple rites show up in the Book of Mormon. Some information on that has been published, and some is in the process of preparation for publication. In all cases, unless you have actually participated in the LDS rites, you will not see or understand it.

See

John Tvedtnes, "A Nephite Feast of Tabernacles," for the 1975/ 1978 Nibley Festschrift (now available as “King Benjamin and the Feast of Tabernacles,” in J. M. Lundquist and S. D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, 2 vols. (Deseret/FARMS, 1990), II:197-237.

David Bokovoy, "Temple Imagery in the Book of Mormon," 4-part BYU Education Week lectures, Aug 16 - 19, 2011.

David Bokovoy, "Divine Council Imagery in the Book of Mormon," BYU Education Week lecture, Aug 17, 2012.

David Bokovoy, "'Thou Knowest That I Believe': Invoking the Spirit of the Lord as Council Witness in 1 Nephi 11," Interpreter, 1/1 (2012), 1-23, online at http://www.mormonint...that-i-believe/ .

David John Butler, Plain and Precious Things: The Temple Religion of the Book of Mormon, eBook (Amazon Digital Services, 2012).

Joseph Spencer, An Other Testament: On Typology (Salem, OR: Salt Press, 2012), 42-57.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[Cobalt-70]

Can you tell me how this is somehow relevant to the symbolism of the temple ordinance even if it were copied. The symbolism and what it represents in the temple is not tied to Masonry. Unless you are somehow intimating something wrong with Masonry and are trying to compare the two to denigrate Mormonism. Nah you wouldn't do that. So then why is it relevant?

It is relevant because the two most significant sources of subject matter in the Endowment ceremony came from 1842 developments in Mormonism, and are not a carry-over from some ancient practice in the temple of Solomon.