Are The Lds Temple Rituals Supposed To Be Anything Like The Rituals Of The Old Testament Temple?

[volgadon]

Thanks to Tvedtnes for telling us that the Gnostics had initiation rituals, that the Gnostics had handclasps, that the Gnostics had secret "mysteries," that the Gnostics had ritual prayer circles, and that Gnostics and Kabbalists believed that you needed a password to get past the angels guarded the doors of heaven.

Now, Mr. Tvedtnes, please tell us how any of these things has anything to do whatsoever with the Temple in Jerusalem. And tell me why anyone should be surprised that the esoteric Freemasons adopted Gnostic and Kabbalistic elements into their rituals.

http://pluto.huji.ac.il/~mselio/JED_189.pdf

[volgadon]

Don't discount Cobalt like that (bolded part). I'm not the best person to say this, so sorry Cobalt if you needed someone other than me to back you.

Just because it's a simple answer or a more logical answer, doesn't make it wrong. It's like some on here are reaching so far out there to make it work. I thinks it's a pattern among the super intellectuals or apologists on the board. Sometimes they need to step down and live in reality.

The problem is, his answers weren't simple or more logical, they were dismissive, ridiculing, and uninformed. If that is reality, please shoot me with an 120mm mortar now.

[Tacenda]

The problem is, his answers weren't simple or more logical, they were dismissive, ridiculing, and uninformed. If that is reality, please shoot me with an 120mm mortar now.

Maybe we should lock the thread so you both can take a break and remain friends;-)

[volgadon]

Maybe we should lock the thread so you both can take a break and remain friends;-)

But that would require me to step down from my ivory tower of super intellectualism and stare reality in the teeth.

[volgadon]

I respectfully disagree that any of our current rituals compare, the only exception might be the washing and annointing. The others like marriage, baptisms, sealings, The Garden, don't appear in Solomon's Temple. Maybe in other ancient temples? But they probably aren't connected to Christianity.

The Garden of Eden doesn't? There are plenty of descriptive words that show up in both the Eden passages and the descriptions of the temple.

Also, there is this.

http://fog.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jcarpent/awa017.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=LuxdZIm01EUC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=investiture+of+zimri+lim+parallels+genesis&source=bl&ots=WLeSggrLJ_&sig=dbAnS7xWaXcl5i1LhxrauWwIQjM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Oq1IUN-MIYP6iwLko4GwCg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=investiture%20of%20zimri%20lim%20parallels%20genesis&f=false

[Tacenda]

The Garden of Eden doesn't? There are plenty of descriptive words that show up in both the Eden passages and the descriptions of the temple.

Also, there is this.

http://fog.ccsf.cc.c...pent/awa017.htm

http://books.google....genesis&f=false

You'll probably wish you could quit after what I'm go to say, haha. Wouldn't JS have known about the Garden of Eden symbolism in Solomon's Temple, since he was a 33rd degree mason? But I will give it to you that your were able to find this. Thanks. But you are going to probably get frustrated with me as much as Cobalt.

[ERayR]

If only I could go back in time and be with JS during the restoration period and be an eyewitness, my troubles would cease.

No they wouldn't. You would still have to accept him on faith and get that witness from the Holy Ghost. On top of that you would still be struggling with the eye witness facts that he was human and his very human ways.

[ERayR]

Wouldn't JS have known about the Garden of Eden symbolism in Solomon's Temple, since he was a 33rd degree mason?

And what difference would that make?

[Tacenda]

And what difference would that make?

Well, he would be aware of alot that could have happened in Solomon's Temple? Freemasonry is tied into that temple.

[ERayR]

Well, he would be aware of alot that could have happened in Solomon's Temple? Freemasonry is tied into that temple.

And how would that affect the validity and truthfulness of the symbolism?

[wenglund]

If you read to understand, you get one message. If you read only to sneer, you get quite a different message.

Additionally, if one reads these things using the lens of fundamentalism, one will get one message--Cobalt being a case in point. If one reads using the Urim and Thummim of the Holy Spirit, one gets yet another message. Since not everyone is prepared to receive the higher laws and understanding, these sacred things aren't just kept secret through not speaking about them outside the temple, but they are also hidden in plain sight when things are spoken about outside the temple.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Wouldn't JS have known about the Garden of Eden symbolism in Solomon's Temple, since he was a 33rd degree mason?

Joseph didn't become a Mason until the Navuoo period (1840's), whereas the endowment was being spoken of as early as 1835.

Keep in mind that prior to 1836, Joseph had twice translated, through revelation, the creation and garden narratives (Book of Moses and Book of Abraham). So, if you are looking for the source of Joseph's understanding of the symbolism...

Also, while we don't currently perform animal sacrifices in LDS temples, there are still sacrifices being made. The exact form in which the sacrifices are made have changed, but sacrifices are still a very important an prominent aspect of the temple ritual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 6, 2012 by wenglund

[ERayR]

Joseph didn't become a Mason until the Navuoo period (1840's, whereas the endowment was being spoken of as early as 1835.

Keep in mind that prior to 1836, Joseph had twice translated, through revelation, the creation and garden narratives (Book of Moses and Book of Abraham). So, if you are looking for the source of Joseph's understanding of the symbolism...

Also, while we don't currently perform animal sacrifices in LDS temples, there are still sacrifices being made. The exact form in which the sacrifices are made have changed, but sacrifices are still a very important an prominent aspect of the temple ritual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks Wade I wasn't sure of the dates but was pretty sure that Joseph's knowledge of this predated his Masonic activity. My question to Tacenda are meant to point out that even if he was inspired by Masonic activity it doesn't negate the symbolism in the temple ceremony.

Edited September 6, 2012 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

Joseph didn't become a Mason until the Navuoo period (1840's, whereas the endowment was being spoken of as early as 1835.

Keep in mind that prior to 1836, Joseph had twice translated, through revelation, the creation and garden narratives (Book of Moses and Book of Abraham). So, if you are looking for the source of Joseph's understanding of the symbolism...

Also, while we don't currently perform animal sacrifices in LDS temples, there are still sacrifices being made. The exact form in which the sacrifices are made have changed, but sacrifices are still a very important an prominent aspect of the temple ritual.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Please CFR on it being the Nauvoo period. I've read that it was done in the Palmyra, NY time frame.

[KevinG]

The symbol is not the thing is symbolizes.

[wenglund]

Please CFR on it being the Nauvoo period. I've read that it was done in the Palmyra, NY time frame.

History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.550

"Tuesday, 15 [March 15, 1842].--I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 6, 2012 by wenglund

[Tacenda]

History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.550

"Tuesday, 15 [March 15, 1842].--I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

http://latterdaycommentary.blogspot.com/2008/05/joseph-smith-was-mason-so-what.html

There is alot of information on this blog that is very telling.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

Tsk Tsk Tacenda you wanted references now when given you think a (figurative) wave of the imperial hand can dismiss them. But then again as I pointed out it is irrelevant.

[wenglund]

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

I grew up in a home of temple attending parents. Yet, for good reason, I knew very little about the temple ceremonies until I attended myself. The same reason may apply to Joseph Smith and Masonry.

Besides, while Joseph's father and elder brother were Free Masons, what evidence do you have that they were 33rd degree Masons--which is the degree you said Joseph was aware of while living in Palmyra, let alone that they would openly discuss that degree with a non-Mason?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 6, 2012 by wenglund

[USU78]

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

http://latterdaycomm...on-so-what.html

There is alot of information on this blog that is very telling.

So . . . now you're accusing JSSr and Hyrum of lying when they made their covenants during the Masonic Ceremonies that they would never divulge what happened there on pain of that happening to them which had happened anciently to Hiram Abiff, the first and original Widow's Son?

The antiMormons are so willing to believe in the lack of integrity of Mormons, no matter who or when, that they build a belief system on the truth of that lack.

Seems an odd belief system to me, but . . . whatever floats your boat.

[USU78]

I grew up in a home of temple attending parents. Yet, for good reason, I knew very little about the temple ceremonies until I attended myself. The same reason may apply to Joseph Smith and Masonry.

Besides, while Joseph's father and elder brother were Free Masons, what evidence do you have that they were 33rd degree Masons--which is the degree you said Joseph was aware of while living in Palmyra, let alone that they would openly discuss that degree with a non-Mason?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Beat me to it and said it so much better.

[Tacenda]

Wengland and USU78, you both know that apologist even say that JS used some masonry in the temple ceremony. Here is one from Fairlds.com, why do you insist this is me just using anti rhetoric? I'm getting a little tired of your way of defending the church and think you both need to rethink your style of doing that.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/ask-the-apologist-similarities-between-masonic-and-mormon-temple-ritual

"To sum up, Mr. Norton has produced a list but no context for the list. It is clear that Freemasonry and its traditions played a role in the development of the endowment ritual but not the degree that Mr. Norton would like to suggest. Further he also brings up only similarities not the differences between the two. For example the central story in the endowment is the allegory of Adam and Eve. In Masonry it is the story of the master builder of Solomon’s Temple Hiram Abiff. Whole vast sections of the Masonic ritual are not and have never been found in the temple endowment."

Or this site: http://www.lds-mormon.com/morgan2.shtml Not sure if it's anti or not, I just stumbled onto it just now.

[USU78]

Wengland and USU78, you both know that apologist even say that JS used some masonry in the temple ceremony. Here is one from Fairlds.com, why do you insist this is me just using anti rhetoric? I'm getting a little tired of your way of defending the church and think you both need to rethink your style of doing that.

http://www.fairlds.o...n-temple-ritual

"To sum up, Mr. Norton has produced a list but no context for the list. It is clear that Freemasonry and its traditions played a role in the development of the endowment ritual but not the degree that Mr. Norton would like to suggest. Further he also brings up only similarities not the differences between the two. For example the central story in the endowment is the allegory of Adam and Eve. In Masonry it is the story of the master builder of Solomon’s Temple Hiram Abiff. Whole vast sections of the Masonic ritual are not and have never been found in the temple endowment." Or this site: http://www.lds-mormo...m/morgan2.shtml Not sure if it's anti or not, I just stumbled onto it just now.

It is not the presence of masonic symbology, etc. in the Endowment that is at issue. It is your accusation of Hyrum and JSSr of telling JSJr about said symbology in violation of their covenants. Do you truly not see the difference between learning about something within the strictures of the Temple, Mormon or Masonic, and learning them at the dinner table? Two words: Integrity. That is the big difference. It is the difference between JSJr taking on polygyny as a covenant Abrahamic test and being an old lech who invents a call from G-d to cover his lechery.

AntiMormons thrive on assumptions of lack of integrity. If they assume JSJr means what he says, then their arguments, many of them anyway, disappear. This is why the timing of JSJr's being raised "on sight" to first degree Masonry in Nauvoo makes a big difference. You blithely ignore it, as though the integrity and honesty of Hyrum means nothing.

How could you?

[Tacenda]

It is not the presence of masonic symbology, etc. in the Endowment that is at issue. It is your accusation of Hyrum and JSSr of telling JSJr about said symbology in violation of their covenants. Do you truly not see the difference between learning about something within the strictures of the Temple, Mormon or Masonic, and learning them at the dinner table? Two words: Integrity. That is the big difference. It is the difference between JSJr taking on polygyny as a covenant Abrahamic test and being an old lech who invents a call from G-d to cover his lechery.

AntiMormons thrive on assumptions of lack of integrity. If they assume JSJr means what he says, then their arguments, many of them anyway, disappear. This is why the timing of JSJr's being raised "on sight" to first degree Masonry in Nauvoo makes a big difference. You blithely ignore it, as though the integrity and honesty of Hyrum means nothing.

How could you?

I said the following....

This is all well and good but he grew up with Freemasonry, with his father and others in his family that partcipated and may have told him about it.

Ok, got ya now. I apologise JSSr. and Hyrum.......

[volgadon]

You'll probably wish you could quit after what I'm go to say, haha... Thanks. But you are going to probably get frustrated with me as much as Cobalt.

Only if you are trying to say with this that your questions are insincere. I hope that is not what you are getting at.

Wouldn't JS have known about the Garden of Eden symbolism in Solomon's Temple, since he was a 33rd degree mason? But I will give it to you that your were able to find this.

I thought your question was about the absence of such imagery and symbolism in the First Temple, rather than from what sources Joseph Smith supposedly borrowed the temple rites and symbolism. As for being able to find this, as if I suddenly scrambled in panic for any straw to clutch, I've known about the Mari fresco since 2nd or 3rd grade (pardon the term) in elementary school. We had the Olam Hatanach series on the various biblical books, which was a serious effort to make substantial biblical scholarship available to the broad public, especially in the school systems. The Genesis volume included that picture, explaining the link to temples, and how Genesis also uses the life-giving symbolism of ancient temples, the dwelling place of God, along with royal imagery.