What Does The Bible Teach On The Pre-Existence?

[Tacenda]

My husband and I were discussing this topic this morning. He isn't on the fence as I am with belief and holds strong to the topic of the pre-existence.

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

There are hints and suggestions in the Bible for a pre-mortal life, but nothing direct. That is where the Restoration comes in.

Edited August 28, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Robert F. Smith]

My husband and I were discussing this topic this morning. He isn't on the fence as I am with belief and holds strong to the topic of the pre-existence.

The late Jesuit Mitchell Dahood said that Psalm 139:15 implies pre-existence (Dahood, Psalms, Anchor Bible, III:285,295), and other references which you may want to examine include Genesis 2:7, 3:19, Psalm 90:3, Ecclesiastes 3:20, 5:14, 12:7, Job 1:21, and from the Apocrypha Ecclesiaticus (Wisdom of Ben Sirach) 40:1.

[Vance]

Some verses that I found in Hebrew I believe provide strong support the concept of a premortal existence in a "back door" kind of way.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could "the children" be "partakers of flesh and blood" if they didn't not exist PRIOR to partaking "of flesh and blood"?

. . .

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Christ) to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That Christ existed premortally is not in dispute. But here Christ took on "flesh and blood" "to be made LIKE unto his brethren".

Now for a pre-existent Christ to take on flesh and blood TO BE LIKE His brethren, implies that His brethren also existed PRIOR to their partaking of flesh and blood.

That is how I see it.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Vance

[shalamabobbi]

John 9:1-3 is my favorite.

I also had trouble when I joined the church with a pre-existence.

[pmccombs1]

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could "the children" be "partakers of flesh and blood" if they didn't not exist PRIOR to partaking "of flesh and blood"?

If God conjured from dust a man who is in the act of eating a ham sandwich, that man would be a "partaker of a ham sandwich" regardless of weather or not he existed in some prior state in which he did not partake. The verb phrase, "are partakers," simply does not imply a prior state of non-partaking.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Christ) to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That Christ existed premortally is not in dispute. But here Christ took on "flesh and blood" "to be made LIKE unto his brethren".

Now for a pre-existent Christ to take on flesh and blood TO BE LIKE His brethren, implies that His brethren also existed PRIOR to their partaking of flesh and blood.

Christ became like his brethren not in the act of "taking on" flesh and blood, but in the final state of having a flesh and blood body, like his brethren. The things that Jesus was "made like" do not inherit Jesus' pre-existence because Jesus was made to be like them. That would be an unwarranted reverse interpretation of the language.

Edited August 28, 2012 by pmccombs1

[Vance]

If God conjured from dust a man who is in the act of eating a ham sandwich, that man would be a "partaker of a ham sandwich" regardless of weather or not he existed in some prior state in which he did not partake.

Your problem is that that is not how God did it. You are overlooking some important words.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same.

So, according to this, Jesus partook of flesh and blood IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE CHILDREN DID.

So, how did Jesus do it?

He pre-existed the partaking of flesh and blood.

So, that MUST HAVE BEEN THE WAY THE CHILDREN DID IT.

There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

Another part you are over looking is, "Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Christ) to be made like unto his brethren."

That includes the manner in which he partook of flesh and blood.

For Christ to be like in brethren in all things, he would have to be like his brethren in the way he partook of flesh and blood.

Otherwise these scriptures are invalid.

It has nothing to do with what God could have done, ham sandwich and all.

The things that Jesus was "made like" do not inherit Jesus' pre-existence because Jesus was made to be like them.

They don't need to "inherit Jesus' pre-existence, because they had their own. It was Jesus that was following their example.

That would be an unwarranted reverse interpretation of the language.

Nah, you just don't want to admit the obvious here.

[hagoth7]

There is always Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[Garden Girl]

There is always Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This is my favorite... I've heard non-members try to explain it that Jeremiah was an "idea" in God's mind...

But I believe it is clear...

Also, Job 38:6-7... "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy."

And Gen 2:5 tells of the Lord making the earth and the heavens "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew (spirit creation)...

Acts 17:29 tells us that we are the offspring of God...

Eccl 12:7 tells us that our spirits shall return unto God who gave it...

There are more, but they are in the standard works (more clearly defined), not just the Bible... your question asked where in the Bible did it teach about pre-existence...

GG

[theplains]

And Gen 2:5 tells of the Lord making the earth and the heavens "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew (spirit creation)...

Did they eat spirit fruit from this spirit tree in the pre-mortal existence in the celestial home? Or are you saying

that the spirit tree produced spirit fruit on earth prior to it suffering mortality?

Thanks,

Jim

[Garden Girl]

Did they eat spirit fruit from this spirit tree in the pre-mortal existence in the celestial home? Or are you saying

that the spirit tree produced spirit fruit on earth prior to it suffering mortality?

Thanks,

Jim

However "life" was in Eden prior to the fall... we know Adam and Eve were able to eat of the fruit of any of the trees, except they were commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil... when they disobeyed and they fell their bodies became "mortal" and they were banished into the cold and dreary mortal world... becoming subject to death.

GG

[Ron Beron]

Normally I don't like to summarily drop the titles of books, but Terryl Givens book, "When Souls Had Wings: Pre-Mortal Existence in Western Thought." is an excellent book. You can see his FAIR lecture here...

[Maidservant]

Here is my favorite:

Genesis 47: 7-9 And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh.bAnd Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old art thou? And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.

(italics and bold are mine)

[pmccombs1]

Your problem is that that is not how God did it. You are overlooking some important words.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same.

So, according to this, Jesus partook of flesh and blood IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE CHILDREN DID.

So, how did Jesus do it?

He pre-existed the partaking of flesh and blood.

So, that MUST HAVE BEEN THE WAY THE CHILDREN DID IT.

There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

Yes there is. You've presented a non-sequitur. The "likewise" means that Jesus participated in mortality by having a body of flesh and blood. Again, "partaking" logically requires no previous state regardless of the presence of the "likewise" modifier.

Another part you are over looking is, "Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Christ) to be made like unto his brethren."

That includes the manner in which he partook of flesh and blood.

Wrong. "in all things" refers to "behoved," not to "to be made like." "Behoved" speaks to the why and not the how. The language is clear.

Nah, you just don't want to admit the obvious here.

What do you know about what I want? Nothing.

[Maidservant]

Also found this bit: Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father?" Of course it says several things in that verse, but there is at least some conception of it here perhaps? Some whisper?

[altersteve]

I believe it's heavily implied, but never directly stated.

[Tacenda]

Wow, I thought this wouldn't get too many responses at first and would sink to the bottom. Thank you for all of them. I think out of the answers given there were some even my husband hadn't seen before.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My husband and I were discussing this topic this morning. He isn't on the fence as I am with belief and holds strong to the topic of the pre-existence.

The Bible teaches much about the sons of God, they joy, their fighting...the war.

[Vance]

Yes there is.

Well, let us see what you've got.

You've presented a non-sequitur.

Well, let us see if you can show that.

The "likewise" means that Jesus participated in mortality by having a body of flesh and blood.

YUP. In the same manner as the rest of us.

Again, "partaking" logically requires no previous state regardless of the presence of the "likewise" modifier.

Well, let us see you show that. Your last attempt was a big failure.

Even IF God created a man with portions of a ham sandwich in his stomach, in his mouth and in his hand. The man has yet to "partake" of the ham sandwich.

So, yes, to partake REQUIRES pre-existence.

Wrong.

So you say, but can NOT show.

"in all things" refers to "behoved," not to "to be made like."

Wrong. "in all things" refers to "to be made like unto his brethren".

Attempting to separate "Behoved" speaks to the why and not the how.

Yes, "behoved" goes to the why.

BUT "to be made like unto his brethren" goes to the WHAT.

The language is clear.

Yes, it is.

[JAHS]

In Genesis before God created Adam and placed him on the earth it says:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Gen 2:1)

The only thing that the word "host" could be refering to are those spirits who would eventually inhabit the earth God created.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"(Job 38:4, 7)

These scriptures bring up two questions. If there were no pre-earth life why then would God ask Job where he was when he created the earth? God knew where he was but He knew that Job would not be able to remember. And while God was creating the earth, who were all those "sons of God" who "shouted for joy"? They were all of the spirit children of God(us) anxiously anticipating the completion of His work.

[Zakuska]

In Genesis before God created Adam and placed him on the earth it says:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Gen 2:1)

The only thing that the word "host" could be refering to are those spirits who would eventually inhabit the earth God created.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"(Job 38:4, 7)

These scriptures bring up two questions. If there were no pre-earth life why then would God ask Job where he was when he created the earth? God knew where he was but He knew that Job would not be able to remember. And while God was creating the earth, who were all those "sons of God" who "shouted for joy"? They were all of the spirit children of God(us) anxiously anticipating the completion of His work.

Adding to that... who are all the "sons of men" (uncreated from clay at this point mind you) who Wisdom (aka Christ) delighted in "daily" before the creation of this earth?

Proverbs 8

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Zakuska