Jump to content

Moving Away From Gathsemane...Who Is To Blame?


Recommended Posts

One of the great things about moving home to take of my Mother, are (is) the things I have found. We live on an old Civil War battlefield. I have found Civil War bullets my Father (while farming) has dug up over the years. My Father's ordination certificate in the Church I grew up in 56 years ago.

Now I speak of another battlefield...one I think Joseph Smith has left his mark. I often get drawn into debates about "Gethsemane" vs. "the Cross"...where Christ "atoned" for the sins of all mankind.

I have pointed out that growing up in the Baptist Church; "Gethsemane" was always central to any teachings to the atonement. I have been called a liar!!!! (Exclamation points just as they would appear) "Where is your "evidence"!!!?

Another great thing is I now have access to 100-200+ year old song books from my youth, my Father's and my Grandfather's.

I found a book the other day with such hymns...

Song number #4..."In Gethsemane Alone"...Here are the words we used to sing.

Oh what a wondrous love

I see freely shown for you and me,

By the one who did atone!

Just to show his matchless grace,

Jesus suffered for the race...

Chorus;

In Gethsemane, a-lone. Oh, what love

Matchless love....Oh what love

For me was show!

His forever I shall be

For the love he gave to me,

When he suffered there alone.

Copyright 1912, by the trio music company.

Song #13 "Gethsemane"

On a hillside so lonely,

Knelt Jesus one day

Soul wounded and weary,

He went there to pray;

But friends there forsaken,

So lonely he feels

To heaven he is crying

With helpless appeals.

Chorus;

But a golden day has broken

In old Gethsemane,

The mornings all come singing

The songs of victory.

There is a new highway to glory

The road that Jesus trod..

On one hill-side and garden,

Such suffering I see,

In humble submission

He was making his plea;

His blood streams are bursting

Come sinner be true,

His cheeks are stained crimson,

For me and for you.

Chorus...

Copyright Rev W. B. Waldrop, Sr; 1939.

Maybe someone could fine a link...this is my first post in three months other than on an Ipad...back is hurting I need to get back to bed.

I hope the jet of this post id received....

Why was Gethsemane left behind?

In short Joseph Smith's view of Biblicial teaching in time will have an unmistakable impact on theological discussion as much as any who has come before him.

Why was something meant for discussion moved here? Or did I mistakenly post in here?

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
Link to comment

It was the cornerstone of my faith growing up now...as LDS even more so. However to you point Gethsemane only took place in the Bible.

In the April 1994 General Conference, Mr. Oaks said:

"The Savior gave us the model for that kind of faith and trust. Remember how he prayed to the Father in the agony of

Gethsemane? This was the culminating event of his life, the climactic fulfillment of his mission as our Savior".

Would you consider Gethsemane or the Resurrection as the climactic fulfilment of his mission?

Thanks,

Jim

Link to comment

In the April 1994 General Conference, Mr. Oaks said:

"The Savior gave us the model for that kind of faith and trust. Remember how he prayed to the Father in the agony of

Gethsemane? This was the culminating event of his life, the climactic fulfillment of his mission as our Savior".

Would you consider Gethsemane or the Resurrection as the climactic fulfilment of his mission?

Thanks,

Jim

Elder (not Mr.) Oaks was speaking of the atonement as a whole. Gethsemane was one stage of the same event culminating on the resurrection.

Link to comment

IMHO, it is error to dismantle the Atonement and attempt to portray one segment being any more significant than the other. Nehor has rightly said that all three segments, Gethsemane, Cross, and Resurrection are all part of the Atonement. Whether Christians or Christian churches focus on one over the other is irrelevant; what is of import is how we learn and teach the Atonement; how we use it to deepen our love of the Savior and his love and sacrifice for us.

Parsing the words of LDS leaders and taking their words out of context is the work of evil and black hearted people where the Spirit has no part in them. There must needs be opposition in all things; LDS are certainly doing something right given the constant barrage of the works of the evil one. I take comfort in seeing that cheap caliber of opposition.

Link to comment

IMHO, it is error to dismantle the Atonement and attempt to portray one segment being any more significant than the other. Nehor has rightly said that all three segments, Gethsemane, Cross, and Resurrection are all part of the Atonement. Whether Christians or Christian churches focus on one over the other is irrelevant; what is of import is how we learn and teach the Atonement; how we use it to deepen our love of the Savior and his love and sacrifice for us.

Parsing the words of LDS leaders and taking their words out of context is the work of evil and black hearted people where the Spirit has no part in them. There must needs be opposition in all things; LDS are certainly doing something right given the constant barrage of the works of the evil one. I take comfort in seeing that cheap caliber of opposition.

It has been my conviction for some time now that the cross (along with the lead-ups, such as Christ's torture at the hands of the soldiers), was meant for a visible sign of His suffering of the Atonement, but that in comparison they were mosquito bites. The fact is, He could have suffered the pains of the Atonement without all that and it would have been just as valid and just as salvific. But for our benefit, the torture of the Cross was added, so that we had something we could relate to.

Link to comment

The Garden, for me, represents Jesus' final acceptance of the burden and guilt of all our sins. The cross is where he paid the ultimate sacrifice for those sins. The empty tomb represents the joyous declaration that death had been conquered by the Lord. I am not sure there is a lot of benefit in contemplating which part was not necessary or that Jesus could have done without and still atoned for all of us.

Jesus' atonement is what it is. Each event of that week before he was crucified provides lessons for each of us in understanding him as our Savior, his complete love for each of us, and the beginning of the New Covenant for us. When we talk of these things I so often hear the refrains from so many hymns, "I Stand All Amazed", "I Know that my Redeemer Lives", "There is a Green Hill Far Away", and so many others.

None of the events of that last week should be overlooked or forgotten. It is good that we understand the meaning of his bleeding from every pore in the Garden; just as it is good that we understand his sacrifice on the cross; and his redeeming love in the resurrection. Nothing should be forgotten or diminished in value or importance.

Link to comment

Gethsemane, Cross, and Resurrection are all part of the Atonement.

Why is there no mention of Gethsemane in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, nor the Doctrine and

Covenants?

The Doctrine and Covenants even omits mentioning it in one particular verse: "And so it was made known

among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been

wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross" (section 138:35)

I had to go into Gospel Prinicples to find this mention: "The Savior atoned for our sins by suffering in

Gethsemane and by giving his life on the cross", but it omits "and by his resurrection".

I looked at the 1997 and 2009 version of Gospel Principles. They basically say the same about a particular

event: "The night before his crucifixion, he went to a garden called Gethsemane. There he knelt and prayed.

Soon he was weighed down by deep sorrow and wept as he prayed" (1997, chapter 11, page 67). "The

night before His Crucifixion, Jesus went to a garden called Gethsemane. Soon He was weighed down by

deep sorrow and wept as He prayed" (chapter 11, page 56).

I looked and both the JST and the KJV but couldn't find this mention that Jesus wept as he prayed. The

November 1992 Ensign magazine only mentions Jesus weeping on 4 occasions, Gethsemane not being

one of them.

Where did this teaching originate from?

Thanks,

Jim

Link to comment

Elder McConkie's final testimony:

http://www.lds.org/l...query=merciless

The one bit of doctrine I've never heard before that speech was that the pains of Gethsemane recurred on the cross. I remember hearing someone else quoting him years later. But I cannot find a link for it.

I don't see that it recurred on the cross, but that it continued on the cross. The suffering of the Atonement started in Gethsemane and was occurring every moment from then until he stated "It is finished". He said that because the suffering of the Atonement was over and He could then allow His body to die. That Elder McConkie may have understood it in that way does not make it doctrine.

Link to comment

In the April 1994 General Conference, Mr. Oaks said:

"The Savior gave us the model for that kind of faith and trust. Remember how he prayed to the Father in the agony of

Gethsemane? This was the culminating event of his life, the climactic fulfillment of his mission as our Savior".

Would you consider Gethsemane or the Resurrection as the climactic fulfilment of his mission?

Thanks,

Jim

All equal and a single process. In the garden the great High Priest transferred the sins of all upon himself, upon the Cross, he became the Lamb of God who spilled his. Look to atone...each equal...one without the other useless suffering, and then the reward for all he became the resurrection and the life. Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
Link to comment

In the April 1994 General Conference, Mr. Oaks said:

"The Savior gave us the model for that kind of faith and trust. Remember how he prayed to the Father in the agony of

Gethsemane? This was the culminating event of his life, the climactic fulfillment of his mission as our Savior".

Would you consider Gethsemane or the Resurrection as the climactic fulfilment of his mission?

Thanks,

Jim

Think of it this way...

Gethsemane + Cross = Atonement (Resurrection the result) remove anyone from the equation and no formula.

Link to comment

I don't see that it recurred on the cross, but that it continued on the cross. The suffering of the Atonement started in Gethsemane and was occurring every moment from then until he stated "It is finished". He said that because the suffering of the Atonement was over and He could then allow His body to die. That Elder McConkie may have understood it in that way does not make it doctrine.

Try reading it again.

"...all the infinite agonies and merciless pains of Gethsemane recurred." --McConkie.

If you'r arguing whether you agree with him or not, that's one thing. But to say you don't see it in his talk is missing something.

You might be meaning that all the suffering (scourging, crucifixion, thorny crown...) was included in the atonement. I'd agree. But that isn't what Elder McConkie was getting at. That period of infinite suffering that caused even "God the Greatest of all to tremble because of pain" was for a brief period in Gethsemane, was abated, and repeated on the Cross.

Edited by Carborendum
Link to comment
Gethsemane + Cross = Atonement (Resurrection the result) remove anyone from the equation and no formula.
I see it as

Sinless Life/Example + Gethsemane + Cross/Death + Resurrection = Atonement.

If Christ were not resurrected, he would not have burst the bands of death so that resurrection could pass upon all men. Thus there would be no atonement. It was, therefore, not a result but a necessary part of the equation. The fact that the resurrection in glory ws the completion of the atonement makes it seem like it was a result. It is a result for US. It was His accomplishment.

Edited by Carborendum
Link to comment

I grew up a Baptist, like you, Papa.

My grandma's favorite picture was a picture of Jesus in the Garden. She had it hanging in her livingroom for as long as I can remember.

Link to comment

I grew up a Baptist, like you, Papa.

My grandma's favorite picture was a picture of Jesus in the Garden. She had it hanging in her livingroom for as long as I can remember.

That picture was in every home of anyone I went to Church with...I hardly ever see it in oth than Mormons homes.
Link to comment

You missed D&C 19:18.

Thanks.

Can we look at a few verses before and after too.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and

to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest

you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have

tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit

In verse 18, is "caused myself, even God" referring to both Jesus and the Father who bled at every pore or just Jesus?

In verses 17-20, why would the non-repentant also suffer even as Jesus did in the Garden?

Jim

Link to comment

"He was led away with a rope around His neck..."

Rope? Where did he get this from?

"Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites".

3 hours? The Book of Mormon says 3 days.

Thanks,

Jim

Prisoner comes to mind when being tried...so in short you do not believe anything McConkie said and the teachings of Gethsemane were abandoned so Mormonism could be opposed. Now that we know who is to blame; what do we do? BoM was more than likely due to volcanic action...Jersalem was an eclipse, a very long one it seems.
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...