Secularization?

[happy]

A few friends and I were recently discussing where our society is going. There is a website that is for people to tell "dirty jokes". While some of them are mostly kids telling potty jokes, there is a litany of jokes like:

"How do you stop a baby from crying? Hit it's head with a brick"

or

"My father always taught me to wait until girls are out of school before trying to sleep with them. Elementary School ends at 3:30".

And these are the tame ones. There are ones about fathers abusing their daughters, men beating their wives, pedophilia... It just goes on and on. Plus there is supposedly like 20,000 active accounts. There were a few people standing up in each Joke's comment section, but for one person crying foul, 50 would dog pile them and tell them how "behind the times" and "stupid" (again, using the tame terms).

There is a web-comic that employs similar "humor" called Happiness and Cyanide. It has even larger audience and defenders.

I certainly can just ignore the websites, which I plan to do, but the thing that caught my attention was the volume of people who are an audience for this. I can guarantee you can at least find several hundred thousand people. My home town only had a population of 32,000.

I've blamed the secularization of society before, however people who are secular decry that as ignorance. Some even say this is what human beings are and the internet has just exposed it.

I believe this is relevant because one of the obstacles to continuing Church growth is the youth. But if these websites and these forms of "humor" are becoming more and more the norm for childhood education, is there no real hope left?

[CV75]

I've blamed the secularization of society before, however people who are secular decry that as ignorance. Some even say this is what human beings are and the internet has just exposed it.

I believe this is relevant because one of the obstacles to continuing Church growth is the youth. But if these websites and these forms of "humor" are becoming more and more the norm for childhood education, is there no real hope left?

I wouldn't say the Internet has exposed human nature, but rather facilitates the expression and development of those aspects that more fully interpersonal relationships effectively suppress. The more time spent on the Internet, the more these formerly suppressed attributes and behaviors will bleed into whatever interpersonal relationships are left, and they are generally not condusive to building them for a better world.

That's not to say tehre's not a lot of good on the Internet that can be brought into real-live relationships and society!

The only hope is in seeing the youth as God sees them, and treat them accordingly.

Edited August 2, 2012 by CV75

[Damien the Leper]

Perhaps you should read Greg Epstein's book Good Without God. It addresses ethical moralism from the perspective of a humanist.

[happy]

Perhaps you should read Greg Epstein's book Good Without God. It addresses ethical moralism from the perspective of a humanist.

A book discussing theories about how a Godless society works is one thing. What I am more interested in is the actual resulting behavior. And it appears to me that the drive toward secularism is inspiring this behavior. I admit I could be wrong, but this is what I have been seeing lately. That is why I am asking for thoughts to ensure my thinking isn't flawed.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm curious as to whether or not you are specifically seeking it out. If so, then of course you are going to 'see it'...quite possibly more than anything else.

It is so easy to see what is wrong especially if it is contrary to our own moral ethics. For me, the appropriate response to this is to find a balance or a counter balance to shift the weight away from cynicism.

A Reformed friend of mine decries that we need more God. I agree but not in the same sense that he does. He is interested in more strict dogmatism and scriptural ethics that are perceived.

I'm more interested in a God who is restoring, redeeming and saving.

[Tacenda]

A book discussing theories about how a Godless society works is one thing. What I am more interested in is the actual resulting behavior. And it appears to me that the drive toward secularism is inspiring this behavior. I admit I could be wrong, but this is what I have been seeing lately. That is why I am asking for thoughts to ensure my thinking isn't flawed.

I believe my sister might steer towards aAhiesm and she is probably one of the kindest people and most upstanding people I know. She is a great 1st grade teacher, sister, friend, mother & grandmother. She hasn't resigned from the church but has not been active since her youth. I remember walking home from church one day with her and she mentioned something had happened that day that made her never want to return or ever attend another faith also. Somehow she's been able to hold onto her morals and be a great contributer to society.

So to me I see it's very likely someone without a belief in God in their lives can be moral people. I believe as individuals we are born with a moral compass. I don't obey the commandments because the church & God say so, like love my neighbor etc. It comes naturally to me. I'm not saying I'm this perfect person, but I don't like the notion to do this, this and that to receive blessings. If your heart isn't in it all the way. I'm going to get flak for that I know.

Back to seclurism, I do agree it's a problem if the youth are desensitised to human feeling etc. And a comment I read or heard one day from a current GA, said that was probably one of the biggest concerns of the church. So I agree there is a problem, just not saying that all athiests are behaving this way as of course we already know.

For the most part I think humankind is far less scary than in past generations. I hold out hope that the nations will live in peace one day. But I do confess to having a child that loves the X Box Live game "Call of Duty" and would play it all day except when he isn't winning, and he has very active LDS cousins and uncles that play right along with him and it's kind of sad, especially for fathers with young children and wives that may need their attention. And I see the internet becoming a problem with FB and other avenues (MDD boards ) that take away from socializing in person. And see how influential it can be for the bad especially some of the sites you've mentioned in the OP.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Tacenda

[Garden Girl]

That's not to say tehre's not a lot of good on the Internet that can be brought into real-live relationships and society!

It is the same with just about everything... even simple TV... what is the scripture? Opposition in all things...

I've lived long enough that I can look back over the years and see some real changes in behavior, attitudes, mores... and not for the better in most cases in my opinion. I love the freedoms that we have and our freedom of choice... but IMO the pendelum has swung too far and we are now in a situation where PC has run amok (just look at the Chick-fil-A doings).

I've been retired 22 years from the Calif state university systems (I started at age 20 and retired at 50). And I'll always remember one morning just before I retired I was walking across campus on the way to my office... as I walked through the Student Union I was following behind three girls... well dressed, pretty, happy as they headed toward class. As we walked I became aware of their conversation... and can still remember how surprised I was at their language... their everyday conversation was peppered with profanity spewing out of their mouths as if it was nothing but normal. I was so surprised and can still remember thinking to myself... I've been too long at the fair... it's time to go. And that has been over 20 years ago... imagine my feelings now as I see even more coarse behavior and language among younger people... relaxed attitudes about cheating... anything to get ahead... I realize I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here, but in general this is the direction.

The latest thing to nearly give me the vapors was a man who had a train ride for children at mall... he drove the small train giving rides to young children. He placed an American flag on the train engine... the mall mgmt told him to take the flag off or they would fire him... he refused... somehow it made the news and people stood with the man and the mall relented and the flag stayed. When has it become offensive to display the American flag...

And don't get me started about the stripping away of everything to do with God or faith from public... and I'm not referring to separating Church and state...

GG

[happy]

But how do you get to a state where someone finds the above jokes funny? I can not relate. There are jokes I have found funny, then guilty, knowing the joke was a bit too adult, but these jokes aren't even funny and they mock very serious and very frightening topics.

Really, how do you get to feeling killing a baby with a brick is somehow funny?

[Verum]

A book discussing theories about how a Godless society works is one thing. What I am more interested in is the actual resulting behavior. And it appears to me that the drive toward secularism is inspiring this behavior. I admit I could be wrong, but this is what I have been seeing lately. That is why I am asking for thoughts to ensure my thinking isn't flawed.

What evidence/reasons are you using to correlate movement towards secularism and an increase in tasteless, immoral, and immature joke telling?

[thesometimesaint]

A few friends and I were recently discussing where our society is going. There is a website that is for people to tell "dirty jokes". While some of them are mostly kids telling potty jokes, there is a litany of jokes like:

"How do you stop a baby from crying? Hit it's head with a brick"

or

"My father always taught me to wait until girls are out of school before trying to sleep with them. Elementary School ends at 3:30".

And these are the tame ones. There are ones about fathers abusing their daughters, men beating their wives, pedophilia... It just goes on and on. Plus there is supposedly like 20,000 active accounts. There were a few people standing up in each Joke's comment section, but for one person crying foul, 50 would dog pile them and tell them how "behind the times" and "stupid" (again, using the tame terms).

There is a web-comic that employs similar "humor" called Happiness and Cyanide. It has even larger audience and defenders.

I certainly can just ignore the websites, which I plan to do, but the thing that caught my attention was the volume of people who are an audience for this. I can guarantee you can at least find several hundred thousand people. My home town only had a population of 32,000.

I've blamed the secularization of society before, however people who are secular decry that as ignorance. Some even say this is what human beings are and the internet has just exposed it.

I believe this is relevant because one of the obstacles to continuing Church growth is the youth. But if these websites and these forms of "humor" are becoming more and more the norm for childhood education, is there no real hope left?

That type of "humor" really isn't secularization, but of gross uncouth people expressing their ignorance.

[happy]

That type of "humor" really isn't secularization, but of gross uncouth people expressing their ignorance.

I'd like to think that, but without a religious moral compass, I fear this is the general direction it is going. When someone in the comment section did mention God or religion, most of the responses were things like "Go to hell, and worship your Mary raping Sky Wizard and his zombie son."

The problem is that the hypothesis of less religion is creating less morality would be a very difficult theory to prove. Most is just observation. That as Atheism starts to gain ground, the morality of society seems to be rotting. I am not inclined to toss out the theory, however, just because some scientific method might not be suitable to test the theory.

[Tacenda]

I'd like to think that, but without a religious moral compass, I fear this is the general direction it is going. When someone in the comment section did mention God or religion, most of the responses were things like "Go to hell, and worship your Mary raping Sky Wizard and his zombie son."

The problem is that the hypothesis of less religion is creating less morality would be a very difficult theory to prove. Most is just observation. That as Atheism starts to gain ground, the morality of society seems to be rotting. I am not inclined to toss out the theory, however, just because some scientific method might not be suitable to test the theory.

I think people that can spout that type of blasphemous rhetoric have been hurt somehow by religion or taught that one should rely on one's self and not a God to take care of them. They see the ongoing suffering in the world and can't believe God ignores it. So instead of believing God ignores it, they'd rather picture that God is non-existent.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Tacenda

[KevinG]

There is some evidence we are civilizing more as time goes on.

http://www.nytimes.c...nted=all&src=pm

"Historians now say that homicide rates were extraordinarily high in Europe during the Middle Ages -- and high in the United States during the early 19th century -- then declined steadily until the 1960's. And for centuries, it was villages that were often the scenes of violence."

This is a good thing. I believe a peaceful spirit can influence all men regardless of their professed religion, but faith based teaching is powerful in civilizing a man.

The courseness of humor and casual discussion of murder and sex cannot help and I am disgusted by some of the garbage out there. For example the radio stations have been playing the "run from my gun" song since the Colorado shooting on a regular basis. That is just sick and wrong. I hope as our entertainment begins to look more real and is easier to immerse in (virtual, CGI, etc.) that it does not begin to influence generations into going back towards barbarism.

Edited August 2, 2012 by KevinG

[Calm]

But how do you get to a state where someone finds the above jokes funny? I can not relate. There are jokes I have found funny, then guilty, knowing the joke was a bit too adult, but these jokes aren't even funny and they mock very serious and very frightening topics.

Really, how do you get to feeling killing a baby with a brick is somehow funny?

That type of "humor" really isn't secularization, but of gross uncouth people expressing their ignorance.

I think there is plenty in history to demonstrate that this type of humour isn't anything all that new, but is as TSS states "gross uncouth people expressing their ignorance" and even glorying in it. The difference today is that instead of being limited to conversations among their peers for the most part, one has the internet to publicize that view and having it out there in public can lead to the appearance that it is more acceptable as well. However, I am not sure how we could actually measure that, first not having measures from the past and second, it is possible it was just as acceptable in but those who would find it unacceptable now had more influence in the past in preventing it from being publicized. That influence is still present in many venues, but with the internet there are now other options that are not controlled in such ways.

[Calm]

I think people that can spout that type of blasphemous rhetoric have been hurt somehow by religion or taught that one should rely on one's self and not a God to take care of them.

I have seen youth speak this way because they think it is 'cutting edge' cool rather than just demonstrating a different form of conformity. Many of them are way too self consumed to be all that concerned about others' suffering.

[happy]

I have seen youth speak this way because they think it is 'cutting edge' cool rather than just demonstrating a different form of conformity. Many of them are way too self consumed to be all that concerned about others' suffering.

But the real problem is when prominent figures like Bill Maher, Juliette Penn, or to a lesser extent, Richard Dawkins, are using similar aggressive language. They certainly can't hide behind excuses of Youth, Some of the youth, however, have used identical terms these "men" use, but add a few F-Bombs to make it their own.

[Tacenda]

I have seen youth speak this way because they think it is 'cutting edge' cool rather than just demonstrating a different form of conformity. Many of them are way too self consumed to be all that concerned about others' suffering.

I was speaking about this statement "Go to hell, and worship your Mary raping Sky Wizard and his zombie son." from Happys quote. That is much different IMO than the f-bomb etc. It is so far out there that I can't imagine it coming from a rebellious or cutting edge youth. I guess it was so shocking to my system I had to find an excuse for it, anything.

[Calm]

But the real problem is when prominent figures like Bill Maher, Juliette Penn, or to a lesser extent, Richard Dawkins, are using similar aggressive language.

It is one of the reasons why youth think it is 'cutting edge cool' when they see celebrities engage in such behaviour.

It is so far out there that I can't imagine it coming from a rebellious or cutting edge youth.

I wish that was true, but imitation of things that shock tends to be standard fare among the rebellious whether young or old from my experience. Edited August 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[CASteinman]

Happy,

I share your concerns.

[thesometimesaint]

I'd like to think that, but without a religious moral compass, I fear this is the general direction it is going. When someone in the comment section did mention God or religion, most of the responses were things like "Go to hell, and worship your Mary raping Sky Wizard and his zombie son."

The problem is that the hypothesis of less religion is creating less morality would be a very difficult theory to prove. Most is just observation. That as Atheism starts to gain ground, the morality of society seems to be rotting. I am not inclined to toss out the theory, however, just because some scientific method might not be suitable to test the theory.

For an Atheist/Agnostic to tell someone to go to Hell, and worship your Mary raping Sky Wizard and his zombie son is rather oxymoronic. But I'm sure they have no sense of irony.

I think the twentieth century alone show be sufficient example of the type of world that State Sponsored Atheism produces.

Ultimately the scientific method is amoral. It is the uses to which it is put that define what is moral and what is immoral.

[CV75]

It is the same with just about everything... even simple TV... what is the scripture? Opposition in all things...

Good point! The examples you gave of opposition to edifying language and behavior, are reflections of opposition to reverence toward the matters the language and behaviors refer to. I suspect such stuff is on the increase where life has been too easy, pampered, and permissive. In the case of the “haves,” it is easy to replace reverence with presumptuousness; in the case of the “have-nots” it is easy to replace reverence with a sense of denied entitlement and anger.

[CV75]

Really, how do you get to feeling killing a baby with a brick is somehow funny?

I guess there's no accounting for taste... It often depends on how the joke is delivered, the context, the point to be made, real punch line etc. In the joke you shared, it's just stupid and maybe some people laugh at or for the sake of stupidity.

[CV75]

The problem is that the hypothesis of less religion is creating less morality would be a very difficult theory to prove. Most is just observation. That as Atheism starts to gain ground, the morality of society seems to be rotting. I am not inclined to toss out the theory, however, just because some scientific method might not be suitable to test the theory.

i think a triangulation of why less religion / why less morality / why more atheism, with each issue looked at separately, might lead to the same conclusion (which I would like to compare with the Book of Ether!)

RE: your post on "aggressive language", the preeminence of the "law of the jungle", which would be a forth area to study in the triangulation. Once popular individuals are involved, it begins to get personal.

Edited August 2, 2012 by CV75

[tyler90az]

*Wonders if rejection as missionaries breeds this type of thought*

The reality is that every generation has thought the one after is worse.

[Maidservant]

secularism

Really, how do you get to feeling killing a baby with a brick is somehow funny?

That as Atheism starts to gain ground, the morality of society seems to be rotting.

I absolutely agree that I cannot find any humor whatsoever in these kind of jokes and any larger mindset they represent. I cannot relate at all, as you said. And I have barred my children from any kind of media where people mock each other even in degrees much less than this. I do not think that violence or sex or word of wisdom failings are what is "rotting" the world--it is MOCKING that is doing it. The willingness of human beings to mock each other.

However, I absolutely disagree that secularism and atheism are the source of our human failings. In fact, I resist creating categories and labels as such. We don't need labels to explain that as humans we FAIL. We are willing to HARM and HURT each other. We let each other down. We participate in depraved things. Religion per se is not nor ever has been the answer, because we've had RELIGION since wazoo and it hasn't helped thus far.

We have to CHOOSE who we will be. And a person identifying themselves as religious must choose to LOVE and BE GOOD. And a person identifying themselves as atheist must choose to LOVE and BE GOOD.

The opportunities religion affords can help to practice us in love and goodness. But there are other opportunities for this as well that go by other names.

It's a human choice and is not fueled by -isms per se, although of course all human actions are founded on knowledge and belief, and so we must take care what we choose to believe, know and then do.

For me, I feel that it is the love of God in me that fuels my outlook on the world where I try to love everything and do what I feel is right. So in that sense I agree with you. But it is not the love of God itself--it is my CHOICE to lay hold on the love of God. But someone who is atheist for example, might say, that they CHOOSE to live according to HUMAN VALUES. So it is the choice, not only the thing itself.

I think that Jesus spoke to this issue and it indeed ought to be at the heart of anything calling itself religion.

Matthew Chapter 22

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So LOVE is it. No more, no less.

And love can be lived in the fold of organized religion and outside of the fold of organized religion. Jesus said that was the point of all the law and prophets anyway.

P.S. I also don't think this generation is any worse than the ones before it, and it is a great deal better. *Is glad she is not where Nero is burning Rome or during the 100 years war ETC ETC ETC*

Edited August 2, 2012 by Maidservant