Secularization?

[tyler90az]

I absolutely agree that I cannot find any humor whatsoever in these kind of jokes and any larger mindset they represent. I cannot relate at all, as you said. And I have barred my children from any kind of media where people mock each other even in degrees much less than this. I do not think that violence or sex or word of wisdom failings are what is "rotting" the world--it is MOCKING that is doing it. The willingness of human beings to mock each other.

However, I absolutely disagree that secularism and atheism are the source of our human failings. In fact, I resist creating categories and labels as such. We don't need labels to explain that as humans we FAIL. We are willing to HARM and HURT each other. We let each other down. We participate in depraved things. Religion per se is not nor ever has been the answer, because we've had RELIGION since wazoo and it hasn't helped thus far.

We have to CHOOSE who we will be. And a person identifying themselves as religious must choose to LOVE and BE GOOD. And a person identifying themselves as atheist must choose to LOVE and BE GOOD.

The opportunities religion affords can help to practice us in love and goodness. But there are other opportunities for this as well that go by other names.

It's a human choice and is not fueled by -isms per se, although of course all human actions are founded on knowledge and belief, and so we must take care what we choose to believe, know and then do.

For me, I feel that it is the love of God in me that fuels my outlook on the world where I try to love everything and do what I feel is right. So in that sense I agree with you. But it is not the love of God itself--it is my CHOICE to lay hold on the love of God. But someone who is atheist for example, might say, that they CHOOSE to live according to HUMAN VALUES. So it is the choice, not only the thing itself.

I think that Jesus spoke to this issue and it indeed ought to be at the heart of anything calling itself religion.

Matthew Chapter 22

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So LOVE is it. No more, no less.

And love can be lived in the fold of organized religion and outside of the fold of organized religion. Jesus said that was the point of all the law and prophets anyway.

P.S. I also don't think this generation is any worse than the ones before it, and it is a great deal better. *Is glad she is not where Nero is burning Rome or during the 100 years war ETC ETC ETC*

You just inspired me to do a little more good and love a little more. Thank you!

[Maidservant]

You just inspired me to do a little more good and love a little more. Thank you!

You are kind .

[happy]

P.S. I also don't think this generation is any worse than the ones before it, and it is a great deal better. *Is glad she is not where Nero is burning Rome or during the 100 years war ETC ETC ETC*

I am not sure I agree here. I think each generation is getting worse. When I was in school, we did not have school shootings and we certainly didn't talk to adults the way they do today. I think each generation is edging just that much more toward darkness.

[TAO]

Mmmm... I think hings are getting a bit more dark too... but things are also shifting, as to what is dark, and what is light. It can be difficult to get the full picture of what is happening.

[Garden Girl]

I am not sure I agree here. I think each generation is getting worse. When I was in school, we did not have school shootings and we certainly didn't talk to adults the way they do today. I think each generation is edging just that much more toward darkness.

Maidservant and many others on the board are too young to really see the differences in generations that we older ones can... I do remember people saying that each generation gets worse... the trouble is, today that is true and it has happened over time. Things that used to outrage my generation when I was young are now commonplace. And this goes throughout the fabric of society but particularly with entertainment, media, sexual behaviors, work ethics, etc etc. Attitudes are different, and not entirely for the better. Yes, some things are more open, even better... but the stripping away of God from a prominent place in general society IMO has contributed to what I consider to be a deterioration... I'm thankful for the many wonderful things about our society... the advancements in medicine, technology, education, etc., but speaking of the overall direction, we are living in a far different world than when I was a child... the nightly news is my reference point.

GG

[volgadon]

I think there is plenty in history to demonstrate that this type of humour isn't anything all that new, but is as TSS states "gross uncouth people expressing their ignorance" and even glorying in it. The difference today is that instead of being limited to conversations among their peers for the most part, one has the internet to publicize that view and having it out there in public can lead to the appearance that it is more acceptable as well. However, I am not sure how we could actually measure that, first not having measures from the past and second, it is possible it was just as acceptable in but those who would find it unacceptable now had more influence in the past in preventing it from being publicized. That influence is still present in many venues, but with the internet there are now other options that are not controlled in such ways.

Even the Miller's Tale was a better attempt at humour than the jokes Happy mentioned.

Edited August 2, 2012 by volgadon

[Calm]

Even the Miller's Tale was a better attempt at humour than the jokes Happy mentioned.

I was thinking of some of the stuff I read eons ago about comments made in the death camps, etc. as well as other comments made by rapists, mass murderers about their victims, even by some US soldiers toward Germans and the Viet Cong. War seems to bring humour down to a very low, low level. Then there is the "humour" of racists. Edited August 2, 2012 by calmoriah

[volgadon]

I was thinking of some of the stuff I read eons ago about comments made in the death camps, etc. as well as other comments made by rapists, mass murderers about their victims, even by some US soldiers toward Germans and the Viet Cong. War seems to bring humour down to a very low, low level. Then there is the "humour" of racists.

The Russian writer Yulian Semyonov defined a fascist as someone who derived pleasure from watching others suffer or go through uncomfortable situations.

[Maidservant]

I am not sure I agree here. I think each generation is getting worse. When I was in school, we did not have school shootings and we certainly didn't talk to adults the way they do today. I think each generation is edging just that much more toward darkness.

Well, certainly there is enough evidence for your point of view on it, and I cannot and would not contradict it absolutely. But I get the opportunity to see some amazing people in this world and the love they have for God as they understand him and these people are younger and younger who have this spiritual connection.

Perhaps it is more polar. What is dark is very dark; and what is good is very good.

But I see young people all over the world working to shift the world to peace and right living and compassion and they are up to their elbows in making it happen and they listen ONLY to that spirit of God inside of them without bowing to any external way of the world. I see this from young people from all walks of life, nations, religious and not religious.

I also come across selfish people of all ages, certainly, and I too despair of things like "OH my goodness, what they put on tv these days." But really everything is the child of what came before it, and hm, I dunno, All In the Family? Glorifying the past is so easy when we don't have to be there any more.

*pretty glad at least some of us got over slavery and subjugation of women* woot! for the modern world.

[ERayR]

A few friends and I were recently discussing where our society is going. There is a website that is for people to tell "dirty jokes". While some of them are mostly kids telling potty jokes, there is a litany of jokes like:

"How do you stop a baby from crying? Hit it's head with a brick"

or

"My father always taught me to wait until girls are out of school before trying to sleep with them. Elementary School ends at 3:30".

And these are the tame ones. There are ones about fathers abusing their daughters, men beating their wives, pedophilia... It just goes on and on. Plus there is supposedly like 20,000 active accounts. There were a few people standing up in each Joke's comment section, but for one person crying foul, 50 would dog pile them and tell them how "behind the times" and "stupid" (again, using the tame terms).

There is a web-comic that employs similar "humor" called Happiness and Cyanide. It has even larger audience and defenders.

I certainly can just ignore the websites, which I plan to do, but the thing that caught my attention was the volume of people who are an audience for this. I can guarantee you can at least find several hundred thousand people. My home town only had a population of 32,000.

I've blamed the secularization of society before, however people who are secular decry that as ignorance. Some even say this is what human beings are and the internet has just exposed it.

I believe this is relevant because one of the obstacles to continuing Church growth is the youth. But if these websites and these forms of "humor" are becoming more and more the norm for childhood education, is there no real hope left?

Something about a great and spacious building. I think you looked into one of the windows.

[ERayR]

Really, how do you get to feeling killing a baby with a brick is somehow funny?

I think the punch line on that is:

Question - How do you get a crying baby to sleep?

Answer: Find a large rock and rock him to sleep.

Not much better but you can get the wordplay in the punch line.

Edited August 3, 2012 by ERayR

[happy]

Ugh. Now apparently there is a Holmes fan page where kids are wearing plaid and other things in "honor" of the Colorado Theater Killer..

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/colorado-shooter-has-weird-online-fan-club-sick-or-just-immature/question-2848383/?uuid=b96a8cc728964cac9495633711a2f296

Edited August 3, 2012 by happy

[thesometimesaint]

I'm old but not that old. The Babylonians complained about their children too.

Violent crime has been in actual decline for over a decade now.

[Tacenda]

I feel quite sorry for the youth in the area that they aren't free to go and do things without everybody being able to get in touch with them. For instance, I can text or call my 15 year old son where ever he may be. He knows how upset I get when he doesn't respond to me when I call or text. So usually answers where ever he might be. Now think in our day, and I'm 50, and think probably the majority on this board didn't have cell phones when we were their age. Remember the freedom we had? I now get that I need to give my son space especially when he said in tears recently, that he'd rather not have a cell phone anymore. Just the other day his dad and I, were trying to get in touch, imagining the worst had happened to him of course and between the two of us we had each called 7 times, therefore my son got 14 calls from us. Now I can't recall why he said he didn't pick up or answer. But still, now I see the picture much better. Are our youth suffering from this technology? No doubt about it. What can we do as a society? I wish I knew. It's definitely a new world. Hopefully the youth will divide and conquer and come out even better than we ever were. But you gotta sympathise with the scenario that technology has brought them.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

I'm 61 so I've got you beat there by a few years.

I clearly remember when I was in the second grade a little girl was kidnapped on her way to school. My parents drilled into me not to ever get in someone's car that I personally didn't know.

I find the technology of today wonderful and useful, but as always it is the uses it is put to not the technology itself that is the problem. Teach your kids correct principles, and you won't have to worry about them governing themselves. But we still do as parents. Hazards of the job I guess.

[Garden Girl]

I'm old but not that old.** The Babylonians complained about their children too.

Violent crime has been in actual decline for over a decade now.

**Really?

Violent crime may be declining, but there are other forms of "crime" within our society... including "white collar." And, crime no longer has to be physically against a person, per se... technology has fostered a whole new type of violence. I just signed up at my bank for protection against credit card theft because I received a telephone call last week from the Fraud Division of the bank, questioning a suspicious charge against my credit card of over $200. The charge was made back east and was not something I normally would charge so red flags went up and the fraudulent charge was rejected, and a call placed to me. The bank immediately closed that account and issued another card. (When I got the call, I was immediately suspicious of the caller because that has become a scam also... someone calling and saying they are from your bank and need personal info because of some problem with your acct, etc etc... so I checked my caller ID and it said the bank's name but I still told her I wasn't giving any personal info so she told me what she had... anyway, she was legit.).

I felt violated... just as surely as if someone put a gun in my face. Worse yet, I have no control over such fraud. We have to be so careful on the internet... and someone is always hacking into the databases and getting credit card info... I assume that's how my card was accessed.

Trying to stay a step ahead of techno criminals is daunting. Now they sell metal covers to carry your credit cards because there are devices that can scan your card in your wallet in your pocket!!! And, we are cautioned about walking away from our cars and using our remote keys to lock the doors because there are devices that can intercept the signal, and as soon as you walk away they need only open your doors with their device.

Anyway, yes, violent crime against individuals is decreasing as it no longer has to be done physically...

GG

Edited August 3, 2012 by Garden Girl

[happy]

I feel quite sorry for the youth in the area that they aren't free to go and do things without everybody being able to get in touch with them. For instance, I can text or call my 15 year old son where ever he may be. He knows how upset I get when he doesn't respond to me when I call or text. So usually answers where ever he might be. Now think in our day, and I'm 50, and think probably the majority on this board didn't have cell phones when we were their age. Remember the freedom we had? I now get that I need to give my son space especially when he said in tears recently, that he'd rather not have a cell phone anymore. Just the other day his dad and I, were trying to get in touch, imagining the worst had happened to him of course and between the two of us we had each called 7 times, therefore my son got 14 calls from us. Now I can't recall why he said he didn't pick up or answer. But still, now I see the picture much better. Are our youth suffering from this technology? No doubt about it. What can we do as a society? I wish I knew. It's definitely a new world. Hopefully the youth will divide and conquer and come out even better than we ever were. But you gotta sympathise with the scenario that technology has brought them.

It's got worse angles than that. Sexting, and girls stupidly sending nude photos of themselves to a "boyfriend" only to have said boyfriend forward it to all his pals. A girl recently tried to kill herself because she had done that. Parents need to stop giving kids cellphones.

JMS

[Garden Girl]

It's got worse angles than that. Sexting, and girls stupidly sending nude photos of themselves to a "boyfriend" only to have said boyfriend forward it to all his pals. A girl recently tried to kill herself because she had done that. Parents need to stop giving kids cellphones.

JMS

I think they have cell phones available that can be used for emergencies only, and can be programmed with just a home or parents' number and/or or 911.

GG

[Calm]

It's got worse angles than that. Sexting, and girls stupidly sending nude photos of themselves to a "boyfriend" only to have said boyfriend forward it to all his pals. A girl recently tried to kill herself because she had done that. Parents need to stop giving kids cellphones.

JMS

How about ones without the ability to text or send photos?

I think they have cell phones available that can be used for emergencies only, and can be programmed with just a home or parents' number and/or or 911.

This is smart. Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Tacenda:

I'm 61 so I've got you beat there by a few years.

I clearly remember when I was in the second grade a little girl was kidnapped on her way to school. My parents drilled into me not to ever get in someone's car that I personally didn't know.

I find the technology of today wonderful and useful, but as always it is the uses it is put to not the technology itself that is the problem. Teach your kids correct principles, and you won't have to worry about them governing themselves. But we still do as parents. Hazards of the job I guess.

Very true, teach them correct principles, apparently I'm not sure if I have done a good job of it. I guess I just feel sorry for the youth. Hopefully the youth will be able to stand firm on righteous principles, but the temptations they have with the internet right on their phones and what can be exposed to them, is astronomical. So they must overcome the war that is waged on their sense of right or wrong.

[thesometimesaint]

**Really?

Violent crime may be declining, but there are other forms of "crime" within our society... including "white collar." And, crime no longer has to be physically against a person, per se... technology has fostered a whole new type of violence. I just signed up at my bank for protection against credit card theft because I received a telephone call last week from the Fraud Division of the bank, questioning a suspicious charge against my credit card of over $200. The charge was made back east and was not something I normally would charge so red flags went up and the fraudulent charge was rejected, and a call placed to me. The bank immediately closed that account and issued another card. (When I got the call, I was immediately suspicious of the caller because that has become a scam also... someone calling and saying they are from your bank and need personal info because of some problem with your acct, etc etc... so I checked my caller ID and it said the bank's name but I still told her I wasn't giving any personal info so she told me what she had... anyway, she was legit.).

I felt violated... just as surely as if someone put a gun in my face. Worse yet, I have no control over such fraud. We have to be so careful on the internet... and someone is always hacking into the databases and getting credit card info... I assume that's how my card was accessed.

Trying to stay a step ahead of techno criminals is daunting. Now they sell metal covers to carry your credit cards because there are devices that can scan your card in your wallet in your pocket!!! And, we are cautioned about walking away from our cars and using our remote keys to lock the doors because there are devices that can intercept the signal, and as soon as you walk away they need only open your doors with their device.

Anyway, yes, violent crime against individuals is decreasing as it no longer has to be done physically...

GG

It has always been easier to steal with a pen than a sword, the sanctions against it are also much lighter. Use a gun and steal 15 cents it is 15 years in a bad a$$ prison. Steal $15 million with a pen and at worst it is a couple of years in Lompoc prison.

Sorry to hear that you were taken advantage of, but glad it turned out all right, even if inconvenient. Use only secure sites that you personally know, and run security codes in your computer when buying anything on line. That helps but won't stop all such crime. Just remember that good locks make good neighbors, and I don't consider crooks to be good neighbors.

Edited August 3, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Garden Girl]

Sorry to hear that you were taken advantage of, but glad it turned out all right, even if inconvenient. Use only secure sites that you personally know, and run security codes in your computer when buying anything on line. That helps but won't stop all such crime. Just remember that good locks make good neighbors, and I don't consider crooks to be good neighbors.

Thanks TSS...

I never buy anything online because I'm so afraid it isn't secure... some people do all their banking, household accts, etc., online. But I never do. That's why this incident was so disturbing.

GG

[ERayR]

I'm old but not that old. The Babylonians complained about their children too.

Violent crime has been in actual decline for over a decade now.

And yet there are those still crying for gun control.