Is There A Way To Tell If Someone Is Converted?

[CV75]

A really interesting topic, Duncan.

Some quick reactions to your post:

I agree that many are called but few are chosen. Perhaps the angst you observe amongst leadership about retention has more to do with the attitude expressed in Mosiah 28:3 (and possibly 4) than with achieving success through numbers. But I’m sure there are leaders with attitudes anywhere along this spectrum.

Conversion in the sense of changing religions is not the same as conversion in the sense of becoming a new creature in Christ. A desire to keep the covenants (faith), a testimony, and conversion may not track at the same pace and / or along parallel lines of progress. In my own experience, I attribute my testimony to my being “convinced” to join the Church, and then honoring my testimony (by keeping the covenants) to a very, very gradual and life-long conversion process that after 35+ years in the Church still feels like I’m just getting started.

I think people expect to hear miraculous events surrounding the tenets of any church, so an initial civility, respect, open-mindedness, and receptivity about what we have to say about the restoration of the priesthood (using your example) is a refelction of the good in human nature. Faith and cynicism in our teachings have plenty of time and opportunity to develop later, which is where the "many are called / few chosen" principle comes into play.

I agree that many missionaries do not communicate or teach well, but the most egregious shortfall would be not having the Spirit attend their efforts as this is what draws people into the faith, testimony and conversion processes. I’ve seen even the clumsiest bear effective testimony.

Still, we cannot really tell who is converted or to what degree; what matters is ordering our lives in faith, hope and charity so as to ensure for those around us that joining and staying with us is the best of all options.

[Deborah]

Conversion in the sense of changing religions is not the same as conversion in the sense of becoming a new creature in Christ. A desire to keep the covenants (faith), a testimony, and conversion may not track at the same pace and / or along parallel lines of progress.

This is so true. When I was baptized I thought that was it. If it hadn't been for my friend who introduced me to the church and her family "adopting" me I might not have been so intent on attending every Sunday. We need to remember many converts are from churches where you just have to believe and church attendance isn't such an important criteria. It may take awhile to overcome that tradition.

I had periods in my life where my testimony was so-so but I kept going to church for the kids and other times where I have been strongly converted but had other reasons that kept me from attending. That is why God doesn't want us to judge. However, he may want us to inquire and to be friends with those who may seem "inactive" so that if someone needs our help we can be there.

[CV75]

God doesn't want us to judge. However, he may want us to inquire and to be friends with those who may seem "inactive" so that if someone needs our help we can be there.

So true! We are constantly reminded in our temple shift preparation meetings to treat each person with kindness and friendlness, and to stay close to the Spirit. Our temple president keeps reminding us, with examples that have been shared with him, of how even the smallest gestures and comments have been an answer to a troubled patron's prayer.

[Tacenda]

So true! We are constantly reminded in our temple shift preparation meetings to treat each person with kindness and friendlness, and to stay close to the Spirit. Our temple president keeps reminding us, with examples that have been shared with him, of how even the smallest gestures and comments have been an answer to a troubled patron's prayer.

For our 5th Sunday lesson, a couple came and talked about missionary work. He had been a temple president and her a temple matron? And another time he was a mission president, would that make her a mission president also? Also he was called as an area seventy, I believe. Anyway, they said the number one thing to teach our children to help them on their missions is, how to work. And his wife said there is a problem with manners, even with the sister missionaries. And she said the youth today do not know how to carry on a conversation, they only know how to text. She also mentioned that the missionaries needed to smile more and be enthusiastic with the work. He also mentioned a mission is not your mission it's the Lord's mission, sort of puts it in a different light, right? Unlike the mission can also be for the missionary and their testimony. So it seems as if the bar is set pretty high now...

Edited July 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[rongo]

I agree that many are called but few are chosen. Perhaps the angst you observe amongst leadership about retention has more to do with the attitude expressed in Mosiah 28:3 (and possibly 4) than with achieving success through numbers. But I’m sure there are leaders with attitudes anywhere along this spectrum.

I think that most leaders have nothing but the best of motives (i.e., people and not statistics, etc.). It's just that the Angst about reactivation and retention at all levels is interesting to me, because the Church has always had this problem, from the very beginning (cf. Adam and Eve's children per the PoGP, Noah's retention numbers, etc.). And leadership from the top down acts as if the new program/approach du jour will be the one to stop the trend. It's simply the way it is, and it's good that it is so, in my view. Conversion requires effort and will.

I think people expect to hear miraculous events surrounding the tenets of any church, so an initial civility, respect, open-mindedness, and receptivity about what we have to say about the restoration of the priesthood (using your example) is a refelction of the good in human nature. Faith and cynicism in our teachings have plenty of time and opportunity to develop later, which is where the "many are called / few chosen" principle comes into play.

But in my experience, and I'd bet, in the experience of others, people's reactions (actually lack of reaction) to Moroni or the restoration of the priesthood aren't due to civility and politeness; they are simply the lack of any kind of thought or reaction at all. Has anybody had more than a handfull of people who have any kind of reaction at all to those things ("Wait ---- what did you just say?")?

I agree that many missionaries do not communicate or teach well, but the most egregious shortfall would be not having the Spirit attend their efforts as this is what draws people into the faith, testimony and conversion processes. I’ve seen even the clumsiest bear effective testimony.

Strongly agree. The work goes forward, and a lot of good people are drawn into the gospel net, regardless of the relative skill or lack of skill of the missionaries. Still, I have noticed over the years that there are a) more lessons taught, b) more baptisms, and c) more member excitement about missionary work when the missionaries are good with people, articulate, and have personality. Every area goes through spells where their missionaries are more or less "sharp," and it's a good experience for the "less-sharp" ones, but I think (starting with the home) the more skillful and sharp we raise and train kids, the more dividends in missions and beyond (Church and life) lie in the future. And our young people are generally less skillful socially today than they were 20 or 30 years ago (cf. Tacenda's anecdote from Sunday, which I think everybody would agree with).

[Tacenda]

Rongo, I forgot to mention probably one of the most important things they mentioned and that is that we as parents can use the "Preach My Gospel" for ourselves or to help our children. And, they mentioned when a missionary speaks from the heart as "Preach My Gospel" directs one to do, it's much more convincing (as per the quote about a clumsy yet very effective testimony).

[rongo]

Rongo, I forgot to mention probably one of the most important things they mentioned and that is that we as parents can use the "Preach My Gospel" for ourselves or to help our children. And, they mentioned when a missionary speaks from the heart as "Preach My Gospel" directs one to do, it's much more convincing (as per the quote about a clumsy yet very effective testimony).

About ten years ago (or so), around the time that PMG came out, a member of the 70 was at our stake conference. He mentioned in priesthood leadership meeting that teaching the PMG way "was what good missionaries have always done." I really like this, because I remembered teachign by the spirit and even deviating from the order of the 6 discussions if that's what was best for the person. While I had the discussions memorized, I had actual "discussions" with those I taught, rather than reciting them a script. Reminds me of Orson Scott Card's definition of "investigator" in "Saintspeak: The Mormon dictionary" (a hilarious and profound book):

investigator: Someone who suspects there are exciting, powerful truths in the gospel somewhere, despite the missionaries' best efforts to stick to the discussions.

The problem is that PMG is a "higher law" form of teaching that requires missionaries to prepare individual lessons based on their investigators' needs. Very, very few actually do this, and with the general decline in teaching skills, they actually teach watered-down versions of rote lessons they learned by example, heavy on gimicky props and object lessons. Also, PMG demands that lessons be kept to 45 minutes or less (excellent standard), but my experience is that they tend to continue to be 1.5 to 2 hours.

I agree that PMG, when properly done, is a higher law form of teaching that is much more effective, but it's actually less-effective than the discussions were when it's not used properly. The discussions at least provided a minimum level of "quality control" by scripting out the doctrines and principles in a logical order. I think that missionaries need to be better taught how to teach using PMG (better than they are now). There is probably wide variation between missions, mission presidents, etc.

[ERayR]

The question: How do you tell if someone is converted?

The answer: If they are committed.

[rongo]

Just for fun, here are a couple more definitions from Saintspeak. Sorry about the derail.

prayer, public For most Saints, public prayer means acting as the voice for a whole congregation in speaking to the Lord. To some, however, it is a difficult and sophisticated art form, a four-part speech in which the speaker is perpetually confused about whether he is talking to the congregation or to God. For those who wish to become a master of this art and impress their friends, the parts of the prayer are: 1. Calling upon God. Little children call him Heavenly Father. Grown-ups generally call him Our Father in Heaven. People who know what's what, however, know that the Lord only hears prayers if he is addressed loudly, firmly, and by elaborate titles. 2. Thanking. This is the part where the person who really knows how to pray usually congratulates the congregation for being better than nonmembers and the sinners who stayed home, and praises the Lord for recognizing their superior virtue by making them rich enough to build such a fancy meetinghouse. 3. Asking. In the closing prayer, or benediction, this is the part where the really talented speaker will repeat the main points of every single talk given in the meeting and add his comments to them as he asks the Lord to help the congregation remember what they learned. In an opening prayer, or invocation, this is the speaker's opportunity to inform the Lord of where the world needs fixing up and to tell the congregation what sins they ought to repent of. 4. Closing. The best prayers are not given in the mere name of Jesus Christ; they are given with as many titles as the speaker can muster.

Prayerspeak A highly elevated language used in Mormon prayers. It consists of a limited repertoire of incantatory phrases, a mystical vocabulary of long or archaic words that are rarely understood by anyone, and a grammar built around the misuse of the second person singular pronoun. 1. Incantatory phrases can range from a few words, like "the sick and afflicted” and the all-purpose "bless that... and we thank thee for;" to whole sentences, like, "Bless those who aren't here this time that they may come next time"; "Bless us with all those blessings of which which we stand in need of"; and "We thank thee for this beautiful Sabbath day in which we have to come and worship thee." These serve the function of surrounding the congregation with familiar sounds, letting them feel at home and comfortable in the meeting. (See also "Let a portion of thy Spirit be with us.") 2. The mystical vocabulary consists of frequently repeated words like which, preserve, gracious, endeavor, numberless, and bounteous. Especially daring speakers even venture to use the really potent words: wast, wouldst, shalt, hath, hast, and art, to name a few. These words all derive from the English language, but they have lost all meaning. Rather, they are used to impart an aura of spirituality and exaltation to the prayer, and, when used, someone fluent in Prayerspeak, can make a perfectly common public prayer into an ecstatic musical experience. 3. The second person pronoun is usually used to refer to God, but where it once suggested intimacy and love, it now suggests the utmost distance and formality. Almost no one uses the nominative thou as it is used in English, however, and thee as a nominative sounds Quakerish. The most common solutions are either to mix up yous and thees and yours and thys willy-nilly, or to use thy as an all-purpose second-person: "We are grateful that thy has permitted us to be members of thy Church, and we endeavor to serve thy to the best of our ability."

Reliefsocietese The dialect of sweetness. The language is spoken in its most refined form by persons who are, have been, or want to be in a Relief Society presidency, but it is also spoken by parents of children who are misbehaving in church, any speaker who is talking to Mormon teenagers, and anyone who doesn't like you but has to work with you anyway. It can only be spoken while smiling, and only positive things can be said. Thus the English sentence, "You really botched the assignment," would be translated into Reliefsocietese as, "You're just such a choice individual, and I'm so very proud of you for doing the best you could. And I just know that next time you'll do even better," and the English sentence, "Will you please be quiet so we can get back to the lesson?" is rendered in Reliefsocietese as, "We're all so very grateful for your special ideas, and we'll just for sure plan a special day really soon when we'll have a chance to hear all about them." While it takes years of practice to become fluent in this dialect, you can fake it right from the start by imitating the expression of rapture found in Renaissance madonna paintings and saying special, choice, just, or so very at least once in every sentence.

Relief Society The organization to which the priesthood dele­gates any assignment that is tedious or unpleasant, or that must be done right and on time.

[Duncan]

About ten years ago (or so), around the time that PMG came out, a member of the 70 was at our stake conference. He mentioned in priesthood leadership meeting that teaching the PMG way "was what good missionaries have always done." I really like this, because I remembered teachign by the spirit and even deviating from the order of the 6 discussions if that's what was best for the person. While I had the discussions memorized, I had actual "discussions" with those I taught, rather than reciting them a script. Reminds me of Orson Scott Card's definition of "investigator" in "Saintspeak: The Mormon dictionary" (a hilarious and profound book):

The problem is that PMG is a "higher law" form of teaching that requires missionaries to prepare individual lessons based on their investigators' needs. Very, very few actually do this, and with the general decline in teaching skills, they actually teach watered-down versions of rote lessons they learned by example, heavy on gimicky props and object lessons. Also, PMG demands that lessons be kept to 45 minutes or less (excellent standard), but my experience is that they tend to continue to be 1.5 to 2 hours.

I agree that PMG, when properly done, is a higher law form of teaching that is much more effective, but it's actually less-effective than the discussions were when it's not used properly. The discussions at least provided a minimum level of "quality control" by scripting out the doctrines and principles in a logical order. I think that missionaries need to be better taught how to teach using PMG (better than they are now). There is probably wide variation between missions, mission presidents, etc.

where did you serve your mission?

[rongo]

Northern Germany, 1994-1996.

[CV75]

leadership from the top down acts as if the new program/approach du jour will be the one to stop the trend.

I believe they are so assertive because drawing people unto Christ can be like swimming upstream and they have to give it all they’ve got. Any lesser effort or being lukewarm about the latest promptings would contribute to the trend and not countering it (the old story about the man tossing starfish picked up from the sand and back into the waves—all the time and effort was worth it even if for maybe just one starfish). And in some Church units a local trend may indeed be stopped or reversed. Often a leader’s own conversion, commitment and progress require him to proceed with unwearyingness with the best tools du jour he has at his disposal. As I mentioned above, if he cannot bear that any human soul should perish, he will put a good deal of his time, reputation and energy into these kinds of efforts. Who knows--he may believe the wrong program, but have true faith in the right thing, which is more important.

But in my experience, and I'd bet, in the experience of others, people's reactions (actually lack of reaction) to Moroni or the restoration of the priesthood aren't due to civility and politeness; they are simply the lack of any kind of thought or reaction at all.

I suppose we persist in teaching and baptizing those that have no thought or reaction about the Restoration because we never really know what wheels are turning in their heads (or the missionaries’ for that matter). Maybe they just don't know what to say about something so intellectually "unique," or when they can only sense that what we have to offer is good, that they should keep listening (even if only for the punch line) and at least not reject the conversation out of hand. This might even be a function of the Spirit being present. It might also be a side-effect of being exposed to anything and everything; media and information overload in general. Unless the conversation becomes tedious, most people won’t challenge or mock what is being explained to them. Worthy missionaries certainly contribute to keeping the teaching environment a spiritually positive one.

I have noticed over the years that there are a) more lessons taught, b) more baptisms, and c) more member excitement about missionary work when the missionaries are good with people, articulate, and have personality. ...our young people are generally less skillful socially today than they were 20 or 30 years ago (cf. Tacenda's anecdote from Sunday, which I think everybody would agree with).

And as you mentioned, those who hear their message may be no more skillful in reacting to it!

[tyler90az]

The missionaries that taught me were not very good speakers or knew very much about the gospel.

They did know the Gospel was true and it was contagious.

[JAHS]

Mosiah 5:2

"And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty

a

change

in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do

b

evil

, but to do good continually."

I think this is a way to know for myself if I am converted. We might suspect this has happend in another person by their actions, but only god knows a person's heart and if they are truly converted.

[Tacenda]

Just for fun, here are a couple more definitions from Saintspeak. Sorry about the derail.

prayer, public For most Saints, public prayer means acting as the voice for a whole congregation in speaking to the Lord. To some, however, it is a difficult and sophisticated art form, a four-part speech in which the speaker is perpetually confused about whether he is talking to the congregation or to God. For those who wish to become a master of this art and impress their friends, the parts of the prayer are: 1. Calling upon God. Little children call him Heavenly Father. Grown-ups generally call him Our Father in Heaven. People who know what's what, however, know that the Lord only hears prayers if he is addressed loudly, firmly, and by elaborate titles. 2. Thanking. This is the part where the person who really knows how to pray usually congratulates the congregation for being better than nonmembers and the sinners who stayed home, and praises the Lord for recognizing their superior virtue by making them rich enough to build such a fancy meetinghouse. 3. Asking. In the closing prayer, or benediction, this is the part where the really talented speaker will repeat the main points of every single talk given in the meeting and add his comments to them as he asks the Lord to help the congregation remember what they learned. In an opening prayer, or invocation, this is the speaker's opportunity to inform the Lord of where the world needs fixing up and to tell the congregation what sins they ought to repent of. 4. Closing. The best prayers are not given in the mere name of Jesus Christ; they are given with as many titles as the speaker can muster.

Prayerspeak A highly elevated language used in Mormon prayers. It consists of a limited repertoire of incantatory phrases, a mystical vocabulary of long or archaic words that are rarely understood by anyone, and a grammar built around the misuse of the second person singular pronoun. 1. Incantatory phrases can range from a few words, like "the sick and afflicted” and the all-purpose "bless that... and we thank thee for;" to whole sentences, like, "Bless those who aren't here this time that they may come next time"; "Bless us with all those blessings of which which we stand in need of"; and "We thank thee for this beautiful Sabbath day in which we have to come and worship thee." These serve the function of surrounding the congregation with familiar sounds, letting them feel at home and comfortable in the meeting. (See also "Let a portion of thy Spirit be with us.") 2. The mystical vocabulary consists of frequently repeated words like which, preserve, gracious, endeavor, numberless, and bounteous. Especially daring speakers even venture to use the really potent words: wast, wouldst, shalt, hath, hast, and art, to name a few. These words all derive from the English language, but they have lost all meaning. Rather, they are used to impart an aura of spirituality and exaltation to the prayer, and, when used, someone fluent in Prayerspeak, can make a perfectly common public prayer into an ecstatic musical experience. 3. The second person pronoun is usually used to refer to God, but where it once suggested intimacy and love, it now suggests the utmost distance and formality. Almost no one uses the nominative thou as it is used in English, however, and thee as a nominative sounds Quakerish. The most common solutions are either to mix up yous and thees and yours and thys willy-nilly, or to use thy as an all-purpose second-person: "We are grateful that thy has permitted us to be members of thy Church, and we endeavor to serve thy to the best of our ability."

Reliefsocietese The dialect of sweetness. The language is spoken in its most refined form by persons who are, have been, or want to be in a Relief Society presidency, but it is also spoken by parents of children who are misbehaving in church, any speaker who is talking to Mormon teenagers, and anyone who doesn't like you but has to work with you anyway. It can only be spoken while smiling, and only positive things can be said. Thus the English sentence, "You really botched the assignment," would be translated into Reliefsocietese as, "You're just such a choice individual, and I'm so very proud of you for doing the best you could. And I just know that next time you'll do even better," and the English sentence, "Will you please be quiet so we can get back to the lesson?" is rendered in Reliefsocietese as, "We're all so very grateful for your special ideas, and we'll just for sure plan a special day really soon when we'll have a chance to hear all about them." While it takes years of practice to become fluent in this dialect, you can fake it right from the start by imitating the expression of rapture found in Renaissance madonna paintings and saying special, choice, just, or so very at least once in every sentence.

Relief Society The organization to which the priesthood dele­gates any assignment that is tedious or unpleasant, or that must be done right and on time.

Last statement about RS, true, sorry but it is, lol. Also, about prayerspeak. I've heard it isn't proper to use thee, thou, and thy but you, your etc. Because thee, thou, thy are improper english. True or anti sentiments?

Thanks for these wonderful "Saintspeak" quotes. I usually try my hardest not to copy word for word on some. But it's hard to be creative and get around them.

[CV75]

The missionaries that taught me were not very good speakers or knew very much about the gospel.

They did know the Gospel was true and it was contagious.

This was my experience, but I was also self-taught and had a testimony long before they taught me. The missionaries that taught my wife were rebellious, and she was about to quit the lessons. Just as she was ready to tell them not to come back, one was replaced and he bore such an effective testimony --the same Spirit she recognized from reading the Book of Mormon but never before in the lessons-- that she stuck with it. And here we are today!

[AddamS]

If they can make great funeral potatoes without referencing an index card, they are truly converted.

Though I must confess, by those standards I would be a convert!

[Duncan]

Northern Germany, 1994-1996.

oh cool! My dad is from Southern Germany, Augsburg.

[blueadept]

If you can tell that they follow the guidelines....."Preach the Gospel ALWAYS, and When it's Necessary.....Use Words"

[Avatar4321]

By there fruits ye shall know them.

[rongo]

Another important factor with conversion is the fact that it is not set in stone and is subject to change, in both directions. Elder Oaks frequently makes the point that Christ praised Peter for his testimony early in the ministry (“Blessed art thou, Simon bar Jona”), but told him right before the Crucifixion “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Past merit is no guarantee of present or future certainty.

I’m going to get a CFR for this, but I remember discussing internal Church studies that indicate that around 80% of Church members, statistically, go through at least one period of significant inactivity in their lives. This sounds high, but when I have discussed this, I’ve been surprised at how many rock-solid members have thoughtfully considered this and surprisingly said that it’s true in their case (a counselor in our stake presidency told me that he had been inactive in college. This was quite a surprise to me). The good news is that the same studies indicate that around 75% of these return to full activity (although this may be cyclical and not a one-time course correction).

In my experience, results are best when the activation/reactivation is intrinsic and internal (as opposed to due to activation efforts of ward members). In other words, when people reactivate themselves. One of our Relief Society presidents had not been to church with her husband for about a year and a half, and then they suddenly started coming back. They told me that they woke up one morning, looked at each other, and said, “We’re inactive, aren’t we?” It had crept up on them, incrementally, and before they knew it, one week had turned into two and then four and then several months.

I’ve learned to “chill out” when fretting about those who have gone missing. This doesn’t mean that we don’t continue to invite and remind, but I’ve learned not to “freak out” about where people are at at any given time. We are a demanding church that requires a lot of our members, and good people are often going to go through periods of inactivity as they navigate their personal journey of mortality. It was a real eye-opener going back to Germany in 2009 for the FAIR conference (I was one of the speakers). I ran into several members from my mission and learned about others from other people, and found that certain rock-solid people were now struggling, and that others who were struggling were now doing well. Here are two pictures; the elderly man in the first one with the white mustache served as a counselor to an elder from my mission in the elders quorum presidency in Köln (Cologne). He married outside the Church and was at the time completely inactive (hopefully not anymore). My wife and I ran into the elders in Halberstadt (former East Germany ---- my favorite area), and I learned that a sister who had formally had her name removed had been rebaptized and is now fully active.

Interestingly, in the first picture, the man with his back turned is an evangelical minister, and he is talking to a struggling member who had returned home early from her mission to Las Vegas because of testimony concerns. She peppered people with lots of questions and it seemed like the FAIR conference did her a lot of good.

[Duncan]

Another important factor with conversion is the fact that it is not set in stone and is subject to change, in both directions. Elder Oaks frequently makes the point that Christ praised Peter for his testimony early in the ministry (“Blessed art thou, Simon bar Jona”), but told him right before the Crucifixion “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Past merit is no guarantee of present or future certainty.

I’m going to get a CFR for this, but I remember discussing internal Church studies that indicate that around 80% of Church members, statistically, go through at least one period of significant inactivity in their lives. This sounds high, but when I have discussed this, I’ve been surprised at how many rock-solid members have thoughtfully considered this and surprisingly said that it’s true in their case (a counselor in our stake presidency told me that he had been inactive in college. This was quite a surprise to me). The good news is that the same studies indicate that around 75% of these return to full activity (although this may be cyclical and not a one-time course correction).

In my experience, results are best when the activation/reactivation is intrinsic and internal (as opposed to due to activation efforts of ward members). In other words, when people reactivate themselves. One of our Relief Society presidents had not been to church with her husband for about a year and a half, and then they suddenly started coming back. They told me that they woke up one morning, looked at each other, and said, “We’re inactive, aren’t we?” It had crept up on them, incrementally, and before they knew it, one week had turned into two and then four and then several months.

I’ve learned to “chill out” when fretting about those who have gone missing. This doesn’t mean that we don’t continue to invite and remind, but I’ve learned not to “freak out” about where people are at at any given time. We are a demanding church that requires a lot of our members, and good people are often going to go through periods of inactivity as they navigate their personal journey of mortality. It was a real eye-opener going back to Germany in 2009 for the FAIR conference (I was one of the speakers). I ran into several members from my mission and learned about others from other people, and found that certain rock-solid people were now struggling, and that others who were struggling were now doing well. Here are two pictures; the elderly man in the first one with the white mustache served as a counselor to an elder from my mission in the elders quorum presidency in Köln (Cologne). He married outside the Church and was at the time completely inactive (hopefully not anymore). My wife and I ran into the elders in Halberstadt (former East Germany ---- my favorite area), and I learned that a sister who had formally had her name removed had been rebaptized and is now fully active.

Interestingly, in the first picture, the man with his back turned is an evangelical minister, and he is talking to a struggling member who had returned home early from her mission to Las Vegas because of testimony concerns. She peppered people with lots of questions and it seemed like the FAIR conference did her a lot of good.

very interesting, thank you! I think your CFR is from the encyclopedia of Mormonism, which heading though and who wrote escapes me

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Is there a way to tell if someone is converted? I know that it is easy to tell who is coming to church, activities etc but is there a way to tell if someone is converted?

Yes, when they become anti-scientific they most certainly have been converted. It's sad, but terribly true. Our church is far and away too suspicious of scientific advances, all the while relying on it and technology to spread its version of the truth.

[volgadon]

Yes, when they become anti-scientific they most certainly have been converted. It's sad, but terribly true. Our church is far and away too suspicious of scientific advances, all the while relying on it and technology to spread its version of the truth.

Sigh. Are we out to reach understanding, or is it war that must be waged?

[Deborah]

Our church is far and away too suspicious of scientific advances, all the while relying on it and technology to spread its version of the truth.

I find this a strange statement because my BYU Alumni magazine is always having articles about scientific advances and awards for BYU.