Polygamy And A Very Weird Website

[DBMormon]

http://onewhoiswatch...cence-part-6-3/

If anyone has time could you help me make sense of this....

Did Joseph denounce polygamy stating he never should have started this practice and did he then burn the revelation like he is accused on this site?

dbmormon

Evidence indicating that Joseph Repented of Polygamy just before he Died

From April of 1841 to November of 1843 historians believe that Joseph smith took on

31 plural wives with the majority of them acquired in 1843. Then, all at once, it all stopped very abruptly. From December of 43 until his death at the end of June of 1844 no more wives were sealed to him. Although he seemed to be picking up steam through 1843 he immediately stopped and not one wife was taken during the last 7 months of his life.

At least two reputable people claimed that Joseph had admitted to them that he had made a terrible mistake on the polygamy issue and that he had repented of it and that it would curse the church if it could not be put down.

The following excerpt from David Whitmer contains some interesting perspective concerning this-

Excerpts from An Address to all believers in Christ by David Whitmer

(The following excerpts show that many of the concepts in this article were apparent to various people way back at the time of the succession issue.)

“All, or nearly all, of the pioneers of the Reorganization who were living in Nauvoo in 1843 and 1844 have now passed away, and you see what time has done in this regard. To-day nearly all of the Reorganization do not believe that Brother Joseph received that revelation on polygamy, or ever had any connection whatever with the doctrine of polygamy, openly and firmly denying this fact; some through ignorance, and some who should not be so ignorant about this matter. They charge it all to Brigham Young. Now, all honest men will understand, after they have read this pamphlet through, that I am doing God’s will in bringiug the truth to light concerning the errors of Brother Joseph. They will see that it is necessary, as he is the man Who introduced many doctrines of error into the Church of Christ; and his errors must be made manifest and the truth brought to light, in order that all Latter Day Saints shall cease to put their trust m this man, believing his doctrines as if they were from the mouth of God.

I quote from Volume X, Number 1, of The True Latter Day Saints* Herald, page 24, from an article written by Isaac Sheen, who was a leader in establishing the Reorganization. ” the Salt Lake apostles said “excuse themselves by saying that Joseph Smith taught the spiritual ” wife doctrine, but this excuse is as weak as their excuse concerning ” the ancient kings and patriarchs.Joseph Smith repented of his connection with this doctrine, and said that it was of the devil. He caused the revelation on that subject to be burned,and when he voluntarily came ” to Nauvoo and resigned himself into the arms of his enemies, he said ” that he was going to Carthage to die. At that time he also said that, if it “had not been for that accursed spiritual wife doctrine, he would not “have come to that. By his conduct at that time he proved the “sincerity of his repentance, and of his profession as a prophet. If ” Abraham and Jacob by repentance can obtain salvation and exaltation,“so can Joseph -Smith.” Here we have Isaac Sheen’s testimony as follows : That Joseph Smith did have connection with this spiritual wife doctrine; that he repented of it just before his death, having come to the conclusion that the revelation was not of God, but was of the devil ; and lie caused the revelation to be burned. Brother Sheen does not state how long Brother Joseph had connection with this doctrine, but of course we suppose from the time the revelation was given, July 12, 1843, until the time of his repentance just before his death, in June, 1844; at which time he concluded that the revelation was not’ of God, but was of the devil, and caused it to be burned, voluntarily giving himself up to his enemies, saying he was going to Carthage to die….

On page 22, in the same number of the Herald, is an article of like testimony, by Wm. Marks, who, as he states in his article, was Presiding Elder at Nauvoo in 1844, when Brother Joseph was killed, and was with Brother Joseph up to his death. His testimony is the same as that given in the two foregoing articles.

He states that Brother Joseph said to him just before his death, concernng polygamy as follows : ” He (Joseph) said it eventually would prove ” the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave *’ the United States unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down, etc.”

The reader will please notice this fact in regard to Wm. Marks’ statement ; and that is the time when Brother Joseph told him that polygamy must be put down in the church. The time when Brother Joseph said this to Wm. Marks, was just before his (Joseph’s) death. \ Polygamy had then been in the church almost a year, and it was just before his death that Brother Joseph saw that polygamy was a cursed doctrine, and repented of his connection with that doctrine — believing then that the revelation was not of God, but was of the devil —and he then caused the revelation to be burned.

The foregoing evidence is*sufficient to convince any one that. Brother Joseph received the revelation on polygamy; that he gave the doctrine to the church; that he had connection with this spiritual wife doctrine himself; and afterwards became convinced that this revelation was of the devil, and repented of this iniquity just before his death.”

Edited July 26, 2012 by DBMormon

[blackstrap]

Congratulations,you have succeeded in using up an entire posting page all by yourself.Now could you go back and highlight those areas where your comments are , and just give us a link to the rest?

[mnn727]

Congratulations,you have succeeded in using up an entire posting page all by yourself.Now could you go back and highlight those areas where your comments are , and just give us a link to the rest?

Its very clear what his comments were and where the article was.

[Tacenda]

http://onewhoiswatch...cence-part-6-3/

If anyone has time could you help me make sense of this....

Did Joseph denounce polygamy stating he never should have started this practice and did he then burn the revelation like he is accused on this site?

dbmormon

Evidence indicating that Joseph Repented of Polygamy just before he Died

From April of 1841 to November of 1843 historians believe that Joseph smith took on

31 plural wives with the majority of them acquired in 1843. Then, all at once, it all stopped very abruptly. From December of 43 until his death at the end of June of 1844 no more wives were sealed to him. Although he seemed to be picking up steam through 1843 he immediately stopped and not one wife was taken during the last 7 months of his life.

At least two reputable people claimed that Joseph had admitted to them that he had made a terrible mistake on the polygamy issue and that he had repented of it and that it would curse the church if it could not be put down.

The following excerpt from David Whitmer contains some interesting perspective concerning this-

Excerpts from An Address to all believers in Christ by David Whitmer

(The following excerpts show that many of the concepts in this article were apparent to various people way back at the time of the succession issue.)

“All, or nearly all, of the pioneers of the Reorganization who were living in Nauvoo in 1843 and 1844 have now passed away, and you see what time has done in this regard. To-day nearly all of the Reorganization do not believe that Brother Joseph received that revelation on polygamy, or ever had any connection whatever with the doctrine of polygamy, openly and firmly denying this fact; some through ignorance, and some who should not be so ignorant about this matter. They charge it all to Brigham Young. Now, all honest men will understand, after they have read this pamphlet through, that I am doing God’s will in bringiug the truth to light concerning the errors of Brother Joseph. They will see that it is necessary, as he is the man Who introduced many doctrines of error into the Church of Christ; and his errors must be made manifest and the truth brought to light, in order that all Latter Day Saints shall cease to put their trust m this man, believing his doctrines as if they were from the mouth of God.

I quote from Volume X, Number 1, of The True Latter Day Saints* Herald, page 24, from an article written by Isaac Sheen, who was a leader in establishing the Reorganization. ” the Salt Lake apostles said “excuse themselves by saying that Joseph Smith taught the spiritual ” wife doctrine, but this excuse is as weak as their excuse concerning ” the ancient kings and patriarchs.Joseph Smith repented of his connection with this doctrine, and said that it was of the devil. He caused the revelation on that subject to be burned,and when he voluntarily came ” to Nauvoo and resigned himself into the arms of his enemies, he said ” that he was going to Carthage to die. At that time he also said that, if it “had not been for that accursed spiritual wife doctrine, he would not “have come to that. By his conduct at that time he proved the “sincerity of his repentance, and of his profession as a prophet. If ” Abraham and Jacob by repentance can obtain salvation and exaltation,“so can Joseph -Smith.” Here we have Isaac Sheen’s testimony as follows : That Joseph Smith did have connection with this spiritual wife doctrine; that he repented of it just before his death, having come to the conclusion that the revelation was not of God, but was of the devil ; and lie caused the revelation to be burned. Brother Sheen does not state how long Brother Joseph had connection with this doctrine, but of course we suppose from the time the revelation was given, July 12, 1843, until the time of his repentance just before his death, in June, 1844; at which time he concluded that the revelation was not’ of God, but was of the devil, and caused it to be burned, voluntarily giving himself up to his enemies, saying he was going to Carthage to die….

On page 22, in the same number of the Herald, is an article of like testimony, by Wm. Marks, who, as he states in his article, was Presiding Elder at Nauvoo in 1844, when Brother Joseph was killed, and was with Brother Joseph up to his death. His testimony is the same as that given in the two foregoing articles.

He states that Brother Joseph said to him just before his death, concernng polygamy as follows : ” He (Joseph) said it eventually would prove ” the overthrow of the church, and we should soon be obliged to leave *’ the United States unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down, etc.”

The reader will please notice this fact in regard to Wm. Marks’ statement ; and that is the time when Brother Joseph told him that polygamy must be put down in the church. The time when Brother Joseph said this to Wm. Marks, was just before his (Joseph’s) death. \ Polygamy had then been in the church almost a year, and it was just before his death that Brother Joseph saw that polygamy was a cursed doctrine, and repented of his connection with that doctrine — believing then that the revelation was not of God, but was of the devil —and he then caused the revelation to be burned.

The foregoing evidence is*sufficient to convince any one that. Brother Joseph received the revelation on polygamy; that he gave the doctrine to the church; that he had connection with this spiritual wife doctrine himself; and afterwards became convinced that this revelation was of the devil, and repented of this iniquity just before his death.”

DB I read over the entire page that you referenced with the website. But didn't look up each individual scripture, for lack of time. But this guy is an interesting dude. I think he may or may not be onto something, don't know. I do recall reading somewhere that in the Carthage jail, Joseph did admit that polygamy was wrong, and even told Hyrum that they should take their garments off. This is a tidbit from who knows where so you and others can take it or leave it. It was probably on some anti site.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[Buzzard]

I have read before that Joseph was conflicted over plural marriage, which should come as no suprise. He was committed to obeying God's commandments, but loved Emma-and also had a very conflicted and often resentful Emma to deal with. But I don't think he ever renounced the doctrine, despite what people said decades later.

[cursor]

The text quoted in the original post can be found here:

An Address to All Believers in Christ

, by David Whitmer, 1887 (75 pages)

Full text --

[ wikisource.org ]

Quoted text is in the 2nd part, chapter IV, page 41--

[ link ]

Google Books scan --

[ link ]

Edited July 26, 2012 by cursor

[Deborah]

I tend not to put any credibility to it given the source. Furthermore Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were very close near the end and Brigham would have known it Joseph had said something like this.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

DB I read over the entire page that you referenced with the website. But didn't look up each individual scripture, for lack of time. But this guy is an interesting dude. I think he may or may not be onto something, don't know. I do recall reading somewhere that in the Carthage jail, Joseph did admit that polygamy was wrong, and even told Hyrum that they should take their garments off. This is a tidbit from who knows where so you and others can take it or leave it. It was probably on some anti site.

Could you provide a CFR...never heard of this on any website. If this were true all the blessing in D&C 132 would be false as well.

[CASteinman]

in the Carthage jail, Joseph did admit that polygamy was wrong, and even told Hyrum that they should take their garments off. This is a tidbit from who knows where so you and others can take it or leave it. It was probably on some anti site.

No reasonable evidence of this at all. Why do you believe this stuff?

Edited July 26, 2012 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

Could you provide a CFR...never heard of this on any website. If this were true all the blessing in D&C 132 would be false as well.

http://en.fairmormon...emoved_garments

Here, FAIR to the rescue! I didn't really know the full story apparently. The information I read was probably from an anti source because their slant was more in keeping with DB's post about Joseph denouncing polygamy right before his death.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

No reasonable evidence of this at all. Why do you believe this stuff?

I wish you wouldn't show just a part of my full quote (above) because it looks as if I'm stating this to be fact. Where in my full quote I stated that I had only read it somewhere and admitted to it being possibly inaccurate because it may have been an anti site. Edited July 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[why me]

http://en.fairmormon...emoved_garments

Here, FAIR to the rescue! I didn't really know the full story apparently. The information I read was probably from an anti source because their slant was more in keeping with DB's post about Joseph denouncing polygamy right before his death.

Well, T. you are certainly learning not to trust those anti sites. And you are using FAIR to counteract their claims. You are doing a good job in digging yourself out of a hole. Good to notice the innuendos from such sites and then check it against something else.

[Tacenda]

Well, T. you are certainly learning not to trust those anti sites. And you are using FAIR to counteract their claims. You are doing a good job in digging yourself out of a hole. Good to notice the innuendos from such sites and then check it against something else.

It may take awhile, and I may keep sliding down quite a bit, but that's because I'm in some pretty deep crud. Thanks for sayin' what you did, WhyMe. It helps to not feel like a villian all the time.

[CASteinman]

I wish you wouldn't show just a part of my full quote (above) because it looks as if I'm stating this to be fact. Where in my full quote I stated that I had only read it somewhere and admitted to it being possibly inaccurate because it may have been an anti site.

Oh, my apologies! I did not mean to misrepresent you. Honest!

But the way you stated it sounded to me like even though you personally do believe it, you understand why someone might not. And that would fit better into a comment where you speak about it so affirmatively as true (and you present it as though it were confirming the believe that this was true) before the take away that some people might not agree with it.

I am not someone who considers you bad, evil, rebellious or any of these other things that you might suppose would be labels applied to you -- just because you are having problems with belief and testimony. I don't think those things and I feel bad for the things you are going through. I do not post to you in a spirit of disagreement or hostility.

But sometimes I wonder about things. There is much I do not understand about what you are going through -- especially since from my perspective you are probably in control of all of it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://en.fairmormon...emoved_garments

Here, FAIR to the rescue! I didn't really know the full story apparently. The information I read was probably from an anti source because their slant was more in keeping with DB's post about Joseph denouncing polygamy right before his death.

Keep in mind anti sites are concerned with one thing...destroying your faith and nothing more. I am a veteran from those wars. Most don't care even if you become an atheist. MD hopes for it. Destruction of the LDS Faith is the primary goal. As far as others who label all but EV "cults"...it is their way or the highway; I speak of the "sites", not individuals. Note my signature line about "Chrristian tolerance", posted by one of their heros Edited July 26, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[why me]

It may take awhile, and I may keep sliding down quite a bit, but that's because I'm in some pretty deep crud. Thanks for sayin' what you did, WhyMe. It helps to not feel like a villian all the time.

Keep questioning what they are saying and keep looking for alternatives like on FAIR and on LDS blogs. I have never considered you a villian and I would be surprised if anyone on this board has. But some will disagree with you but that comes with the turf. Strange but some anti discussion boards claim that this board is harmful to members and mean to people who don't tow the line. But that is really not true. People here will defend the church and some may sound 'harsh' but most are actually puppy dogs in real life.

Edited July 26, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

Oh, my apologies! I did not mean to misrepresent you. Honest!

But the way you stated it sounded to me like even though you personally do believe it, you understand why someone might not. And that would fit better into a comment where you speak about it so affirmatively as true (and you present it as though it were confirming the believe that this was true) before the take away that some people might not agree with it.

I am not someone who considers you bad, evil, rebellious or any of these other things that you might suppose would be labels applied to you -- just because you are having problems with belief and testimony. I don't think those things and I feel bad for the things you are going through. I do not post to you in a spirit of disagreement or hostility.

But sometimes I wonder about things. There is much I do not understand about what you are going through -- especially since from my perspective you are probably in control of all of it.

I know where your heart is and that you were sincere, I just wanted you to show the full quote. Sorry if it came across that I was being testy or anything. I'm still in recovery phase here, so I slide back two steps and go two steps forward, and maybe again, like I've done in the past, with alterior motives, I shouldn't bring things up that I've read about on questionable sites.

[Tacenda]

Keep in mind anti sites are concerned with one thing...destroying your faith and nothing more. I am a veteran from those wars. Most don't care even if you become an atheist. MD hopes for it. Destruction of the LDS Faith is the primary goal. As far as others who label all but EV "cults"...it is their way or the highway; I speak of the "sites", not individuals. Note my signature line about "Chrristian tolerance", posted by one of their heros

Some day you ought to tell how you became a veteran of those wars, I'm not in wars and try to not get sucked in by some of the EV's sites with certain claims about Mormonism. But your story, could help others, if you'd ever like to share.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[altersteve]

Tacenda, it is true, according to some accounts, that Joseph told Hyrum and other men with him to remove their garments, but it was likely to avoid having them mocked or desecrated. Willard Richards continued to wear his, however.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Some day you ought to tell how you became a veteran of those wars, I'm not in wars and try to not get sucked in by some of the EV's sites with certain claims about Mormonism. But your story, could help others, if you'd ever like to share.

My 1,000's Of post trying combat their lies. In short a lot of wasted time. I am truly hated on these sites. I cannot even mention the towns my son serves in because of stalkers. Many times when I post here it shows up there. Two sites have many sock-puppets here. They come here pretending to be members. They are banned and just come back with a new account. One such person used a sock-puppet account to complain to me that someone from here was doing it there...no I think he was at Watler Martin's site. It is hard to keep tract. Edited July 26, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[cursor]

Some day you ought to tell how you became a veteran of those wars, I'm not in wars and try to not get sucked in by some of the EV's sites with certain claims about Mormonism. But your story, could help others, if you'd ever like to share.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what does "EV" mean?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Tacenda, it is true, according to some accounts, that Joseph told Hyrum and other men with him to remove their garments, but it was likely to avoid having them mocked or desecrated. Willard Richards continued to wear his, however.

And survived...now that is interesting.

[CASteinman]

Keep in mind anti sites are concerned with one thing...destroying your faith and nothing more. I am a veteran from those wars. Most don't care even if you become an atheist. MD hopes for it. Destruction of the LDS Faith is the primary goal. As far as others who label all but EV "cults"...it is their way or the highway; I speak of the "sites", not individuals. Note my signature line about "Chrristian tolerance", posted by one of their heros

Absolutely right. They work to destroy the Peace and Faith of the Saints. They have no desire to serve God or Love their fellow man -- that is all a ruse.

[CASteinman]

And survived...now that is interesting.

That is, I believe, the start of the belief that Garments will physically protect you. Which may be somewhat true - but not as advertised by our enemies.

[Cobalt-70]

I tend not to put any credibility to it given the source. Furthermore Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were very close near the end and Brigham would have known it Joseph had said something like this.

Brigham Young was on a mission during Smith's last days, so he would not have known, first hand, if Smith had a change of mind on polygamy.

Even if he heard about such a change second-hand, Young believed that by the time Smith decided to cross the river and return to Nauvoo, Smith did not have "one particle of [revelatory] light in him" (source). So if Young was aware of the accounts that Smith had changed his mind on polygamy, Young would probably have dismissed them as a moment of weakness on Smith's part. Young's view was not without evidentiary support, because two years before Young said this, Stephen Markham claimed, quite credibly, in a letter to Wilford Woodruff that while in Carthage, that Smith told him, "The whisperings of the Spirit left me and I am now no more than a common man" (source).

Edited July 26, 2012 by Cobalt-70