Tacenda Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I don't dare bring up the show I watched, that brought this subject up recently, because it might give the subject less credibility. But anyway, Shawn said that it did exist, but the church has distanced itself from it. I wonder why. In my opinion I think this prophecy is a good thing, or not? Also, I remember talking to my son after he returned from his mission and he gushed about the church having so much money that they'll be able to help the country one day. I wonder if he heard somewhere about this "White Horse Prophecy". Something about the constitution may one day "hang by a thread". Also, it made me think that possibly the "rainy day fund" that was mentioned in the Bloomberg article might be there for this specific purpose. Any thoughts on the matter? Or has this topic come up before and hashed out already.A quote I found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Horse_ProphecyIn 1928, the LDS apostle Melvin J. Ballard remarked that "the prophet Joseph Smith said the time will come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands ... the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. This Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what [the Mormons], through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission."[20]
Calm Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 White Horse Prophecy has been discredited."Hang by a thread" is accepted, IIRC.
ERayR Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 White Horse Prophecy has been discredited."Hang by a thread" is accepted, IIRC.That is what I recall also.
Nofear Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 White Horse Prophecy has been discredited."Hang by a thread" is accepted, IIRC.You are correct on both accounts. Not only was the White Horse Prophecy discredited, it was never asserted by authorities in the Church (though it may have had its time among the membership).While the White Horse Prophecy as a whole is fraudulent, it was a clever enough piece of work to include known prophecy of "hanging by a thread". Critics habitually conflate the two to the detriment of the truth.FAIR: White Horse Prophecy
Freedom Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 As the linked article probably explains, there never was one and there was never mention of one. The best we have is a fellow recollecting decades later Joseph Smith expressing his opinion of what would happen with the saints. It is never expressed as a prophesy. the notion of the constitution hanging from a thread is not related to this so called prophesy and it was an opinion, not a prophesy, of what may occur in the last says. The idea put forward is that, if the constitution should be abandoned, it would be the elders of Isreal that would defend it. I have had so many discussions about this notion with so-called experts in mormonism who's main argument of defense is to criticize me for demanding evidence.
Alan Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I think the White Horse Prophesy is genuine.There are things contained therein which could not have been known at the time. Especially the role of Russia and a contender for world domination, and the relationship which would develop between Britain and France.Those who dismiss this prophecy must explain why there is so much correct prophecy in it. 1
CASteinman Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I am of the opinion the White Horse Prophecy has some correctly remembered teachings but that it is not quite accurate. It is interesting but perhaps not reliable.The Church apparently does not consider it worthy of quotation but I am unaware of any official declaration that it is false.
ERMD Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 The church is not going to deny/refute every false claim that comes along.
CASteinman Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 The church is not going to deny/refute every false claim that comes along.Yeah.....but the White Horse Prophecy is not just any 'ol false claim.
Freedom Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I think the White Horse Prophesy is genuine.There are things contained therein which could not have been known at the time. Especially the role of Russia and a contender for world domination, and the relationship which would develop between Britain and France.Those who dismiss this prophecy must explain why there is so much correct prophecy in it.This is a bit of an oxmoron. Something that does not exist cannot be genuine.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 That is what I recall also.A very long time friend brought this up in Church, suggesting this election might be the fulfillment. I told this is not the place for such speculation.
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 We do know that Christ will put an end to all nations. But the so called White Horse Prophecy is not accepted by the Church.
ERayR Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I think the White Horse Prophesy is genuine.There are things contained therein which could not have been known at the time. Especially the role of Russia and a contender for world domination, and the relationship which would develop between Britain and France.Those who dismiss this prophecy must explain why there is so much correct prophecy in it.I look at it as I do the apocrypha. There is much that is valid but must be read and studied with the help of the spirit.
ERayR Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 A very long time friend brought this up in Church, suggesting this election might be the fulfillment. I told this is not the place for such speculation.I would agree that quorum meeting is not the place but out in the halls after meeting? 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I would agree that quorum meeting is not the place but out in the halls after meeting? We we're in the halls. Next to an investigator.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) We do know that Christ will put an end to all nations. But the so called White Horse Prophecy is not accepted by the Church.The Prophet JS used to say..."cling close to the bark of the tree, least reaching for the limbs ye fall". We as a people have too much in the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, to get our foundation to rest upon. when this is done then we can start buIlding our house of cards...but the foundation will remain. Edited July 13, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Maureen Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 This subject came up years ago at a different forum and it seems to me that many people think that the White Horse prophecy and the "hanging by a thread" prophecy are one and the same; but they are not. As others have mentioned, the LDS church accepts the "hanging by a thread" prophecy but does not accept the White horse prophecy.http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdfM.
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 The pull of Babylon is always there, and there will always be some that succumb.
Muc'ul Ajwalil Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 It is, at best, Mormon Apocrypha.However, I have been paying more attention to more recent leaders about the topic, such as Ezra Taft Benson.
ERayR Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) It is, at best, Mormon Apocrypha.However, I have been paying more attention to more recent leaders about the topic, such as Ezra Taft Benson.Which is apocrypha? The white horse prophecy or the hanging by a thread?The documents show that Joseph Smith did prophesy a number of times that the United States and the Constitution would be imperiled and that the elders would have a hand in saving them. The first known record of the prophecy dates to July 19, 1840, in Nauvoo, when the prophet spoke about the redemption of Zion. Using Doctrine & Covenants 101 as a text, he said, “Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)While it is included in the White Horse Prophecy it seems that the "hang by a thread" can stand on its own. Edited July 13, 2012 by ERayR
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 It is, at best, Mormon Apocrypha.However, I have been paying more attention to more recent leaders about the topic, such as Ezra Taft Benson.ETB made a great comment in "An Enemy Hath Done This"...(to paraphrase) in chapter 25; "if this time does arrive, it will those already defending the constitution, who will come to her aid".
Freedom Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 It does not take a prophesy to project that a constitution may fail at some future time. No civilization lasts for ever, at least not thus far in our history. I think that there are only two national constitutions that are older than 200 years on the planet: Great Britain and the U.S. This notion of hanging by a thread is conjecture and not prophesy. It is never stated to be prophesy as far as I am aware. The principles always seems to be 'if the constitution were to hang by a thread, the elders of israel will defend it'. From a strictly secular perspective, I highly doubt the Unites States and its constitution will be existence 2,000 years from now. It will eventually collapse and a new, hopefully better regime will take its place.
Nofear Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 Whether or not it is "prophecy" or speculation by Joseph Smith I encourage readers to see the arguments made by George Cobabe's paper The White Horse Prophecy in the section "Credibility of the Concept the the Constitution will Hang by a Thread". Then one can judge informatively for their self. Cobabe concludes:Thus, there is much support for the idea that Joseph Smith spoke of the challenges to the Constitution coming from sources and witnesses that are more reliable than the Rushton account. Original manuscripts of the Knowlton account and the Burgess notebook are held in the Church Archives.PS: Don't worry, it's relatively short... less than a couple of minutes reading. Would copy and paste it but the copy and paste from the pdf adds a bazillion extra line breaks. 1
CASteinman Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) It is never stated to be prophesy as far as I am aware.Here are some notes on the matter.There is a reference to the subject in the Joseph Smith Papers:“Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” - Joseph Smith (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844.)"I heard the prophet say, 'The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints—the Elders of Israel—will step forward to its rescue and save it.'" - Eliza R. Snow."The government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!!" -- Parley P. Pratt."Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, 'The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.' It will be so." - Brigham Young."Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the 'Mormon' Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it." - Brigham Young."It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. The question is whether it will be saved at all, or not. I do not know that it matters to us whether it is or not: the Lord will provide for and take care of his people, if we do every duty, and fear and honour him, and keep his commandments; and he will not leave us without a Constitution. - Orson Hyde. Edited July 13, 2012 by CASteinman
Calm Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 While it is included in the White Horse Prophecy it seems that the "hang by a thread" can stand on its own.Should stand on its own, imo.
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