Bloomberg Does Mormonism

[gtaggart]

How the Mormons Make Money.

[Calm]

McMullin explains that City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. “Will there be a return?” he asks rhetorically. “Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment—the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses.” Pausing briefly, he adds with deliberation: “It’s for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better.”

Interesting.

It’s perhaps unsurprising that Mormonism, an indigenous American religion, would also adopt the country’s secular faith in money.

Not sure what she means by this.

On the other hand, says historian D. Michael Quinn, who is working on a book about the LDS Church’s finances and businesses, “The Mormon Church is very different than any other church. … Traditional Christianity and Judaism make a clear distinction between what is spiritual and what is temporal, while Mormon theology specifically denies that there is such a distinction.”

That seems to ignore the injunction of using tithing for for profit business. Edited July 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[Ariarates]

That seems to ignore the injunction of using tithing for for profit business.

If I read the article correctly, it seems that tithing funds are being used from time to time to help out struggling church businesses:

'Besides having final say on major transactions, the church owns all of DMC’s shares. And each year the holding company, like all church businesses, donates 10 percent of its income to a church fund. In some cases money flows in the opposite direction, from the church’s treasury to the businesses. “From time to time, if there is a particular need, there would be some monies available, but fortunately over the years that has not been the case very often,” says McMullin. “If you have a particular reversal in an enterprise, you need to have some additional cash flow until you work through a difficult time. I’ll give you an example, we’re going through one right now: It’s called a recession.” McMullin declined to elaborate on whether the church has been bailing out subsidiaries.'

Of course, the terminology here is rather convoluted: a church fund, the church's treasury, some monies. It may be tithing, it may not be. Who's to know? $40 billion in assets, $8 billion in tithing revenue and zero accountability.

Another interesting admission is the church's use of "missionaries" in its commercial enterprises - which is not new, of course, because these "opportunities" and their cost to LDS senior citizens are published monthly. Way to get your hands on a sizeable chunck of the pensions of the elderly.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Ariarates

[why me]

The mall was a win-win for everyone, especially for those who now have jobs during this economic crisis. For these people, it matters not if the church is behind the mall. What matters for them, is that they are working and bring home some money. I think that the assets of the lds church show that the people behind it are good at investments and have help in making the decisions that they are making. But they need to be humble and not prideful or that extra help can be taken away.

[Ariarates]

I think that the assets of the lds church show that the people behind it are good at investments and have help in making the decisions that they are making.

You can't tell without knowing which decisions were made and what the alternatives were. There is bound to be tremendous waste in a big organization like the church.

[Storm Rider]

You can't tell without knowing which decisions were made and what the alternatives were. There is bound to be tremendous waste in a big organization like the church.

I think you would be surprised at how little waste there is in this organization. I reject your logic when applied to religious organizations in general and support it when talking about for-profit corporations.

[Storm Rider]

If I read the article correctly, it seems that tithing funds are being used from time to time to help out struggling church businesses:

'Besides having final say on major transactions, the church owns all of DMC’s shares. And each year the holding company, like all church businesses, donates 10 percent of its income to a church fund. In some cases money flows in the opposite direction, from the church’s treasury to the businesses. “From time to time, if there is a particular need, there would be some monies available, but fortunately over the years that has not been the case very often,” says McMullin. “If you have a particular reversal in an enterprise, you need to have some additional cash flow until you work through a difficult time. I’ll give you an example, we’re going through one right now: It’s called a recession.” McMullin declined to elaborate on whether the church has been bailing out subsidiaries.'

Of course, the terminology here is rather convoluted: a church fund, the church's treasury, some monies. It may be tithing, it may not be. Who's to know? $40 billion in assets, $8 billion in tithing revenue and zero accountability.

Another interesting admission is the church's use of "missionaries" in its commercial enterprises - which is not new, of course, because these "opportunities" and their cost to LDS senior citizens are published monthly. Way to get your hands on a sizeable chunck of the pensions of the elderly.

No risk of you being objective; how does that work for you?

From the article it was clear that there is a definite separationi between tithing monies and those monies from for-profit companies. The tithing slip language does provide an "out" should tithing funds be needed, but given your own insinutions that the Church is so corporate and for-profit oriented, there is little to fear that happening. Or do you think that LDS Church does not really make that much profit and would need to have their businesses supported by tithing money. You pick, but don't think you can ride the horse in both directions; if so, your subjectivity turns into rabid silliness. Of course, that would not be the first time would it?

[Storm Rider]

After reading the article it would seem that there may come a day when there is a much stronger delineation between the for-profit side of the Church and its ecclesiastical side. At least, I would like to see that occur. It tend to reject thinking of the time demanded to run a corporation is being taken out of the schedule of the prophet. The two hats are not easily worn and should not be worn in my opinion. I know that must shock our good friend Mr. Quinn (why does he always go so far out into the fringe as to distort almost everything he says? It is so sad to have as good a mind as he has and to waste it so poorly).

I would like to see the figures on charitable given to account for the countless man hours to provide those services worldwide. I think the figure would change significantly; however, that does not arrest a discussion of how much should the Church provide in charitable donations to the world at large? Frankly, I don't know what the proper amount is, but this does seem like something that I would like to hear more about.

Regardless, I don't spend very much time on the this topic. When I pay tithing I conclude that I have done my part. If the Church uses it appropriately/wisely, then great; if it is frittered away unwisely then they will have to talk to God about it and I would not want to be them on that day.

[Tacenda]

My husband knows someone that works behind the scenes for the church conference center. Last year the church put on a wonderful Christmas program with a few celebrities. The set cost over 100,000.00 but was thrown away only after a couple of nights of use, that to me is wasteful.

[sjdawg]

I think you would be surprised at how little waste there is in this organization. I reject your logic when applied to religious organizations in general and support it when talking about for-profit corporations.

How do you know how much waste there is in the organization?

[sjdawg]

I hope there comes a day when organizations such as the LDS Church are required to pay property taxes. I don't see why one of the largest property owners in the world should not pay taxes on the properties. There is a huge cost associated with providing services to the properties.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My husband knows someone that works behind the scenes for the church conference center. Last year the church put on a wonderful Christmas program with a few celebrities. The set cost over 100,000.00 but was thrown away only after a couple of nights of use, that to me is wasteful.

For all intents and purposes this really is just a rumor. There is no way to substantiate this. I am not calling you or your husband a liar, just that we cannot confirm or deny this.

[Buzzard]

I hope there comes a day when organizations such as the LDS Church are required to pay property taxes. I don't see why one of the largest property owners in the world should not pay taxes on the properties. There is a huge cost associated with providing services to the properties.

If that day comes, than all religions, all non-profits, all quasi-governmental agencies will be paying. If they "pick" on the church specifically, that would be, at least in the states, illegal discrimination. I think the church does pay property taxes on its two British temples, because under British law, houses of worship must be accessible to the general public to be tax free.

[Tacenda]

For all intents and purposes this really is just a rumor. There is no way to substantiate this. I am not calling you or your husband a liar, just that we cannot confirm or deny this.

His friend is the one that helped discard the amazing back drop for the Christmas program (memory kicked in) with Jane Seymour. His friend is a very active member of the church, why would he lie? They didn't have the storage, is all. So I understand that it would be hard to keep it somewhere. But it just rubs some people wrong. Even my husband who is active LDS.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tacenda

[sjdawg]

If that day comes, than all religions, all non-profits, all quasi-governmental agencies will be paying. If they "pick" on the church specifically, that would be, at least in the states, illegal discrimination. I think the church does pay property taxes on its two British temples, because under British law, houses of worship must be accessible to the general public to be tax free.

I'm onside with all non-profits paying property taxes. I'm also onside with giving very small non-profits a bit of a break but not sure how that would work. I don't think bigger organizations like the United Way need to be exempt from property taxes.

Edited July 11, 2012 by sjdawg

[Sleeper Cell]

I hope there comes a day when organizations such as the LDS Church are required to pay property taxes. I don't see why one of the largest property owners in the world should not pay taxes on the properties. There is a huge cost associated with providing services to the properties.

A relatively small proportion of property tax is used to pay for services to the properties.

In California, there is a growing trend to supplement the usual property tax with special per parcel taxes to pay for many of these services. Such “special taxes” are required to be somewhat proportional to the benefit the property actually received. For example, an apartment building would pay a higher “roads tax” than a single family dwelling, since an apartment building presumably generates more road traffic. IIRC, churches are not exempt from such taxes (and presumably would also pay a higher roads tax).

[thesometimesaint]

Property taxes are based on assessed valuation. How does one assess the value a church building?

[KevinG]

You can't tell without knowing which decisions were made and what the alternatives were. There is bound to be tremendous waste in a big organization like the church.

There is and the brethren are fierce about eliminating it. We've gone through this before and the accounting and accountability in the church is tight from Salt Lake City to the furthest most branch.

Your beef is that you are not privy to the numbers.

[KevinG]

Property taxes are based on assessed valuation. How does one assess the value a church building?

According to the Supreme Court in Kelo: how much revenue a strip mall could generate on the property.

[KevinG]

The short answer to How Mormons Make Money is. We donate it, we use cash when we want to buy something and we invest wisely in things that will build the church and the communities we are in (the world).

[why me]

You can't tell without knowing which decisions were made and what the alternatives were. There is bound to be tremendous waste in a big organization like the church.

I just think that the mall was a great investment. America is a capitalist country where life rotates around business. For the church to purchase a mall and then revamp it and provide work for many people, and keep the area vibrant is a win-win for all--for the workers and for the residents

[why me]

His friend is the one that helped discard the amazing back drop for the Christmas program (memory kicked in) with Jane Seymour. His friend is a very active member of the church, why would he lie? They didn't have the storage, is all. So I understand that it would be hard to keep it somewhere. But it just rubs some people wrong. Even my husband who is active LDS.

I don't see it as waste. However, many things are wasteful when it comes to concerts, set designs etc. It is just the way it is. In this case, the lds church put on a great show and concert for the faithful. And these days, the faithful nee much to help them keep the faith and feel a sense of belonging during the christmas season.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

His friend is the one that helped discard the amazing back drop for the Christmas program (memory kicked in) with Jane Seymour. His friend is a very active member of the church, why would he lie? They didn't have the storage, is all. So I understand that it would be hard to keep it somewhere. But it just rubs some people wrong. Even my husband who is active LDS.

Cool story sis!

[cinepro]

Property taxes are based on assessed valuation. How does one assess the value a church building?

Churches buy and sell church buildings all the time, so I assume someone has figured it out.

[Alan]

I must admit the corporate activities of the church leave me cold. In my view it is wrong for the church to build shopping malls etc when people are homeless and starving. I just wish they would stop it. It's embarrassing and, frankly, indefenceable.