KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Yeah Selek, prove the very specific claim you madeYou missed the sarcasm didn't you.Try this give us a list of church properties that we don't take property taxes on other than Chapels, Temples, welfare facilities and historical sites free to the public and we can discuss the validity of tax exemption on them.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Really a cannery that gives food away to the poor (LDS or not) and operates on volunteer labor should be taxed? Wow.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Really a cannery that gives food away to the poor (LDS or not) and operates on volunteer labor should be taxed? Wow.The LDS Cannery by my house also sells food items so yes I'm fine with it being paying property tax.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) The LDS Cannery by my house also sells food items so yes I'm fine with it being paying property tax.The only food "sold" is purchased at cost for bulk packaging. The canneries don't make money on those purchases of items. So the taxes on zero profit amount to $0.Problem solved. Unless you somehow think property tax is linked to sales. Another good reason to learn some economics. Edited July 12, 2012 by KevinG
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 The only food "sold" is purchased at cost for bulk packaging. The canneries don't make money on those purchases of items. So the taxes on zero profit amount to $0.Problem solved. Unless you somehow think property tax is linked to sales. Another good reason to learn some economics.The only food "sold" is purchased at cost for bulk packaging. The canneries don't make money on those purchases of items. So the taxes on zero profit amount to $0.Problem solved. Unless you somehow think property tax is linked to sales. Another good reason to learn some economics.I don't think property tax is linked to sales but I still think it should be paid on everything but houses of worship. You are free to disagree with me. I'm well aware that income taxes on zero profit amount to zero. I don't think I have mentioned income taxes anywhere in this thread until now.Please provide a legitimate reference showing food at canneries is sold at cost.
selek1 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I never said they weren't in compliance. Then you have nothing to complain about and should stop trolling. My opinion is that the law should change. I understand that: my question is whether you are selective in that demand, or whether you wish to exempt corporations of which you approve.Also, unless you can provide a legitimate source for your 1/10th of percent I'm going to assume you are making stuff up. We don't know enough about church finances to make that calculation.All of my numbers- which I admitted up front were estimates- came from publically available sources on the Internet. Primarily, these were the Wikipedia entries regarding LDS Church finances, AgReserve, and the Bloomberg article referenced in the OP. The count of LDS temples and stakes comes from LDS.org.I, at least, have attempted to provide reasonable estimates based upon factual numbers.This places my efforts in a moral cateogory head-and-shoulders above the bigoted innuendo, unfounded rumor mongering, and back alley smear campaigns which normally dominate this sort of conversation. The bottom line is this: none of the law enforcement agencies actually charged with auditing the Church's finances- and which have access to the real numbers- have any problem with the way the Church is conducting its affairs.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I don't think property tax is linked to sales but I still think it should be paid on everything but houses of worship. You are free to disagree with me. I'm well aware that income taxes on zero profit amount to zero. I don't think I have mentioned income taxes anywhere in this thread until now.Please provide a legitimate reference showing food at canneries is sold at cost.How about you provide evidence the church makes a profit off of anything done at the welfare canneries and you provide the earlier CFR that the church has revenue generating activities that aren't taxed.I'm tired of answering all of your suspicions without you providing the effort to back up your conspiratorial charges.Stop building conspiracies and asking people to prove they aren't true. 1
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I understand that: my question is whether you are selective in that demand, or whether you wish to exempt corporations of which you approve.I think that I have already stated that I approve of all non-profit organizations paying property tax. Not just the LDS Church
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This conversation always end up with critics asking us to prove we aren't nefarious and money grubbing.I don't know why I even engage that kind of "prove you don't still beat your wife" kind of nonsense.Good night all.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) How about you provide evidence the church makes a profit off of anything done at the welfare canneries and you provide the earlier CFR that the church has revenue generating activities that aren't taxed.I'm tired of answering all of your suspicions without you providing the effort to back up your conspiratorial charges.Stop building conspiracies and asking people to prove they aren't true.You stated they were selling items at cost. Not me. Please provide proof or retract your statement.I don't think I said anywhere that profit generating entities were not paying the taxes they were required to (I didn't differentiate between profit generating and not-for-profit. I guess I should have and I'm sorry). I have repeatedly said that I would like to see the law changed so that not for profit entities do pay property tax (only property tax)To be clear. I believe the LDS CHURCH is compliant with all required law. I think the law should change. There is no consipiracy theory here. Edited July 12, 2012 by sjdawg
selek1 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This conversation always end up with critics asking us to prove we aren't nefarious and money grubbing.I don't know why I even engage that kind of "prove you don't still beat your wife" kind of nonsense.Good night all.Kevin G-We will never convince fools, charlatans, and trolls. They are beyond redemption.When I answer these sorts of things, it's not because I expect the leopard to change his spots, but to prove that it CAN be done.There are lurkers here who are troubled by these things, and who don't realize that there are answers.It is for them that I post, and not anyone else. 1
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This conversation always end up with critics asking us to prove we aren't nefarious and money grubbing.I don't know why I even engage that kind of "prove you don't still beat your wife" kind of nonsense.Good night all.I'm asking to you to show evidence for a claim you made. Nothing more.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 You stated they were selling items at cost. Not me. Please provide proof or retract your statement.I don't think I said anywhere that profit generating entities were not paying the taxes they were required to (I didn't differentiate between profit generating and not-for-profit. I guess I should have and I'm sorry). I have repeatedly said that I would like to see the law changed so that not for profit entities do pay property tax (only property tax)To be clear. I believe the LDS CHURCH is compliant with all required law. I think the law should change. There is no consipiracy theory here.I know they sell items at cost because I volunteer at the local welfare services building from time to time. The facilities take fast offering money to run. The only time I have ever paid for materials it was at wholesale cost and I canned them myself using materials provided to me by the church. But I don't expect you to take my word for it. Take a ride to your local cannery and ask to audit their books. Additional proof is the feds have not busted the LDS church for profit activities in a non-profit facility.So your beef is the LDS church is not paying taxes on facilities that no one else would be required to pay taxes on which are a very small percentage of the total property and activities we engage in? That's quite the hobby horse.
Anijen Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I think that I have already stated that I approve of all non-profit organizations paying property tax. Not just the LDS ChurchAs a business owner I disagree. I say cut almost all govt spending, But I digress...I wish we were back to the wickedly high tax rate in the Book of Mormon....
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I'm asking to you to show evidence for a claim you made. Nothing more.While asking us to accept blindly the claims you made. Try answering the CFRs to you.Until then I'm done with your trolling.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I know they sell items at cost because I volunteer at the local welfare services building from time to time. The facilities take fast offering money to run. The only time I have ever paid for materials it was at wholesale cost and I canned them myself using materials provided to me by the church. But I don't expect you to take my word for it. Take a ride to your local cannery and ask to audit their books. Additional proof is the feds have not busted the LDS church for profit activities in a non-profit facility.So your beef is the LDS church is not paying taxes on facilities that no one else would be required to pay taxes on which are a very small percentage of the total property and activities we engage in? That's quite the hobby horse.It might be an exaggeration to say I have a beef. I do think that the general public doesn't need to pay for the cost associated with maintaining services to any property whether it is a for-profit or not-for-profit organization.Also, I have purchased items at my local LDS cannery and I will concede they are inexpensive but I have no idea whether or not they are "at cost". They have a price list and that is what I paid. For all I know they are losing money. They may be making a little money. I don't know but I didn't make the claim.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 As a business owner I disagree. I say cut almost all govt spending, But I digress...I'm onside with that too. I don't think anyone wastes more money than the goverment....lol
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 While asking us to accept blindly the claims you made. Try answering the CFRs to you.Until then I'm done with your trolling.Which are? Provide a list of LDS facilities that generate a profit but don't pay any tax? I have repeatedly said I believe that all LDS facilities are compliant with the law. You are asking for a CFR on something I didn't say.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 So would you be willing to pay a higher amount for the items purchased so that the church can pay additional taxes on what is currently non-taxable activity? If so buy stamps and don't use them. That will have the same effect and not require others to join you in your unique belief about taxation.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 You are asking for a CFR on something I didn't say.Go back and read again. You missed some.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 How about you provide evidence the church makes a profit off of anything done at the welfare canneries and you provide the earlier CFR that the church has revenue generating activities that aren't taxed.I never said canneries make a profit and I did not say the church is generating untaxed revenue. Not sure why I would provide a reference for something I didn't say. I have repeatedly mentioned property taxes and only property taxes.
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 While asking us to accept blindly the claims you made. Try answering the CFRs to you.Until then I'm done with your trolling.What claims have I made? The only one I am aware of is that I think non-profit organizations should pay property taxes.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I never said canneries make a profit No you said they sold items and asked me to prove it wasn't at a profit.and I did not say the church is generating untaxed revenue. No you said there were properties that should be taxed that are not already and I asked you which ones?Not sure why I would provide a reference for something I didn't say. I have repeatedly mentioned property taxes and only property taxes.Yet you brought up sales of items in a property tax discussion. So which church properties according to you should be taxed that are not currently and what percentage of our property holdings do you estimate those to be? That is salient to your earlier assertions.
KevinG Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) What claims have I made? The only one I am aware of is that I think non-profit organizations should pay property taxes.Write your legislator. Complaining about the Mormon church having tax exemptions on their non-profit welfare and humanitarian activities won't change anything. Edited July 12, 2012 by KevinG
sjdawg Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 No you said they sold items and asked me to prove it wasn't at a profit.You told me they were sold at cost, so yes I am assuming that you have some factual basis for that claim and I'm asking for the information. We both agree they sold items. I readily admit I don't know if they sold them at, above, or below cost. Your claim, the onus of proof is on you
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