The Fortunate Fall

[Rivers]

One of the unique doctrines of the Book of Mormon is that of the fortunate fall. It is the concept that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing and that it was part of God's plan.

Is there any record of this idea being taught prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon or was this a brand new concept?

[CASteinman]

One of the unique doctrines of the Book of Mormon is that of the fortunate fall. It is the concept that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing and that it was part of God's plan.

Is there any record of this idea being taught prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon or was this a brand new concept?

Wow. Really excellent question. I look forward to the responses. It is something I do not know anything about. I would expect to see at least glimpses of it in ancient sources. (Maybe I read something once and have forgotten it!)

[volgadon]

4 Ezra 6:55 through the rest of 7.

It deals with the idea that there were two worlds created. This one and the heavenly world. Access to the heavenly world is only gained by choosing the path of good over that of evil and enduring suffering and trials in this world.

[DubaDNura]

Jewish Midrashim imply that the "tree of knowledge" was Eve herself, or at least that it was conceptually aligned with her. The two were formed fully developed, and were naked in the garden together. In other words, G-d, in his infinite wisdom, placed two adolescents of opposite gender in a romantic garden together, and instructed them not to do anything untoward. If there ever was a setup, this was it.

The sin of eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge is the source of all adversity. Through adversity, we become more mature. The messianic era is an era of maturity. Maturity is one of the few things that one can't be given, and can't be born into.

(Are there sources for any of this? Yes. At the moment, I forgot where they are.)

[theplains]

It is the concept that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing and that it was part of God's plan.

Do you believe it was God's desired will that Adam and Eve disobey Him? Besides Moses 5:10-11, are there

other places where humans praise God for giving them blessings for disobedience?

Thanks,

Jim

[volgadon]

Do you believe it was God's desired will that Adam and Eve disobey Him? Besides Moses 5:10-11, are there

other places where humans praise God for giving them blessings for disobedience?

Thanks,

Jim

Book 10 of Paradise Lost, for starters, but your description of Moses 5:10-11 borders on caricature.

[DubaDNura]

When I said above that Jewish Midrashim imply this and that, I don't mean that they imply this and that to the exclusion of other possibilities. One of the interesting things about Jewish Midrashim is that they frequently offer multiple, mutually exclusive, answers for the same question.

[DBMormon]

It seems to me that unless we change in this life, we become irrelevant. What I mean is If god simply wanted us to gain bodies then it doesn't seem like this was the best plan. If this life wasn't about change and growth we never had to leave him in the first place... I know this doesn't address the OP but it seems like Joseph hit on something that just makes sense and fits with my the feelings of my heart

[Sine Saw Square]

Ah, you beat me to it. I was going to mention Milton. Recall there were some very interesting ideas in there.

Book 10 of Paradise Lost, for starters, but your description of Moses 5:10-11 borders on caricature.

[BCSpace]

Is there any record of this idea being taught prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon or was this a brand new concept?

Well, I disagree with the notion that it was "fortunate" because that seems to imply it was not planned for or expected and was just an accident (the other christians seem to believe the Fall was an accident). However, perhaps that is just semantics. Consider the New Testament:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Peter 1:18-20

If Jesus was foreordained to his task, then the Fall was part of the plan. So perhaps that is your record of this idea being taught before the publication of the BoM. In early Christianity no less.

[zerinus]

It seems to me that unless we change in this life, we become irrelevant. What I mean is If god simply wanted us to gain bodies then it doesn't seem like this was the best plan. If this life wasn't about change and growth we never had to leave him in the first place... I know this doesn't address the OP but it seems like Joseph hit on something that just makes sense and fits with my the feelings of my heart

The purpose of our coming to earth is explained in the Book of Abraham very clearly:

Abraham 3:

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It was to see if they would "do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them". In other words, it was a test of our obedience, nothing more.

Edited June 11, 2012 by zerinus

[DBMormon]

oh look at that Zerinus quoting me again and dissenting.... that is unusual

This life is about change, becoming like him inwardly not outwardly One is an indicator of the other.

faith without works is dead

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[zerinus]

oh look at that Zerinus quoting me again and dissenting.... that is unusual

This life is about change, becoming like him inwardly not outwardly One is an indicator of the other.

faith without works is dead

According to the Book of Abraham, It is about demonstrating our faithfulness to the will of God. It is about proving that we will do everything that He says. Tell me what difficulty you have with that teaching in the Book of Abraham. Don't you trust it? Don't you think it is true scripture, the genuine word of God? Do you think that it was a mistake? What do you think?

[Hamilton Porter]

Irenaeus said the Fall was a "Fall forward."

[Rivers]

Well, I disagree with the notion that it was "fortunate" because that seems to imply it was not planned for or expected and was just an accident (the other christians seem to believe the Fall was an accident). However, perhaps that is just semantics.

Good point. Fortunate Fall is probably not the best phrase to describe the concept.

[Rivers]

I think that this doctrine is one of the major theological differences we have with our friends of other Christian faiths. This doctrine conveys the point that there is a purpose to this life beyond simply avoiding Hell and going to heaven. The prupose of this life according to mormonism is all about improvement and progression. If the fall was never somthing that needed to happen, what was God's purpose in creating the world in the first place?

Thanks for the responses. This is all interesting stuff.

[theplains]

If Jesus was foreordained to his task, then the Fall was part of the plan.

Do you believe God's plan for the Atonement led to His need for Adam and Eve to disobey Him or did the Fall lead

to the need of an Atonement?

Thanks,

Jim

[3DOP]

One of the unique doctrines of the Book of Mormon is that of the fortunate fall. It is the concept that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing and that it was part of God's plan.

Is there any record of this idea being taught prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon or was this a brand new concept?

Rivers, Hi.

There is evidence to suggest that the concept is Apostolic and has been retained by the Catholic Church.

This is the night in which destroying the chains of death, Christ arose victorious from the grave. For it profited us not to be born, if it had not profited us to be redeemed, O wondrous condescension of Thy mercy towards us! O inestimable affection of love; to redeem a slave, Thou didst deliver up Thy Son! O truly needful sin of Adam, which was blotted out by the death of Christ! O happy fault, that merited to possess so great a Redeemer!

---The Exultet, A hymn traditionally chanted by the presiding deacon on Holy Saturday at the lighting of the Paschal Candle, before the lessons for the Vigil Mass of Easter.

This prayer of the Church announces the much awaited end of Lent and inaugurates the Easter Season in the Roman Liturgy of the Catholic Church. According to Catholic sources it was probably composed no earlier than the 5th nor later than the 7th century. Catholic theology makes frequent use quoting the Exsultet to show that the Church teaches that the state of redemption is more desirable than that of original innocence.

3DOP

Edited June 11, 2012 by 3DOP

[volgadon]

Rivers, Hi.

There is evidence to suggest that the concept is Apostolic and has been retained by the Catholic Church.

---The Exultet, A hymn traditionally chanted by the presiding deacon on Holy Saturday at the lighting of the Paschal Candle, before the lessons for the Vigil Mass of Easter.

This prayer of the Church announces the much awaited end of Lent and inaugurates the Easter Season in the Roman Liturgy of the Catholic Church. According to Catholic sources it was probably composed no earlier than the 5th nor later than the 7th century. Catholic theology makes frequent use quoting the Exsultet to show that the Church teaches that the state of redemption is more glorious than that of original innocence.

3DOP

Beautiful. That is the same idea that pervades Paradie Lost. The Fall itself isn't necessarily a good thing- disobedience of God never is- but God's love, power and glory are experienced more profoundly than they would have been without our knowing sorrow, hardship and despair.

[3DOP]

Beautiful. That is the same idea that pervades Paradie Lost. The Fall itself isn't necessarily a good thing- disobedience of God never is- but God's love, power and glory are experienced more profoundly than they would have been without our knowing sorrow, hardship and despair.

Yes volgadon. You should hear it chanted in Latin. The song is as lovely as its message is powerful. Heh.

I know that we differ about creation ex nihilo, but bare with me anyway while I develop my idea. Some suggest that to create out of nothing is just absurd or impossible or have philosophpical objections to it. Fine. I say creation ex nihilo is nothing compared to what God does with the Fall and all evil in the world!

Both Mormons and Catholics believe that God does something even more remarkable than creating good out of nothing. Rather than taking a positive good, God takes a negative evil, and recreates good out of that! In my opinion, people of good will toward God everywhere should contemplate this truth with profit. It could be especially comforting when we are counselling souls whose faith is shaken or lost because of the presence of evil and suffering. Even more important might be to ponder this truth with faith, BEFORE the suffering comes as we know it must, so we have our armor and shield all ready. We should remember how disastrous this was for our first parents. But regardless of that, we are now promised in St. Paul's Letter to the Romans that "...all things work together for good to those who love God..."

All of us will discover, perhaps to our shame, that at the journey's end, every bit of pain and suffering that this poor world has ever known also served a divine plan to which we were naturally blind. But by the obscure light of faith, we should trust that ALL THINGS work together for good. God is giving us the broadest hint with the Fall of Adam, not that we should be disobedient, but that when we are affected by suffering beyond our control, we may know by faith that God is remaking all things according to a greater good.

Edited June 11, 2012 by 3DOP

[theplains]

Rather than taking a positive good, God takes a negative evil, and recreates good out of that!

How do you see the Fall as a negative evil when in the premortal life Adam and Eve were foreordained to disobey God

and bring mortality into the world? Preach My Gospel says the "Fall is a blessing and that Adam and Eve should be

honored as the first parents of all mankind" (page 59, lesson 2, The Plan of Salvation).

It sounds to me that in God's eyes [in the context of this LDS teaching], that they did a great and positive thing.

Thanks,

Jim

[Yep]

One of the unique doctrines of the Book of Mormon is that of the fortunate fall. It is the concept that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing and that it was part of God's plan.

Is there any record of this idea being taught prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon or was this a brand new concept?

I feel that the following suggests that the fall was a part of God's plan:

Genesis 2:24

24 Therefore shall a ^aman‍ leave his ^bfather‍ and his mother, and shall ^ccleave‍ unto his ^dwife: and they shall be ^eone‍ flesh.

My reasoning is that this is a statement pre-fall. What father and mother was Adam referencing? I feel that this was a statement that man would leave the presence of God to stay with his wife. I believe that the statement referred to general fathers and mothers, but at this time it held more than simply that meaning.

[3DOP]

How do you see the Fall as a negative evil when in the premortal life Adam and Eve were foreordained to disobey God

and bring mortality into the world? Preach My Gospel says the "Fall is a blessing and that Adam and Eve should be

honored as the first parents of all mankind" (page 59, lesson 2, The Plan of Salvation).

It sounds to me that in God's eyes [in the context of this LDS teaching], that they did a great and positive thing.

Thanks,

Jim

I see the Fall as a negative evil because it was sinful. It was direct disobedience of a clear commandment from God that appeared at the time to be irreversibly disastrous, with punishments that were horrendous. But even then, our first parents were given hints of God's mercy. During the sentencing of the serpent, the promise of a Redeemer, with the "crushing of the serpent's head" is announced without hesitation. The full implications of this wonderful promise begin to be more clearly recognized with the Incarnation of God's own Son in the womb of the Blessed Virgin. We have not yet realized the culmination of His work, which according to the Catholic liturgy, is so wonderful that though we must never excuse the act, we may understand Adam's Fall to be at once, necessary and happy. It is an astounding paradox.

As far as the quote from "preach My Gospel" goes, I am sure I agree if it means that we must never fail in the commandment to honor our mothers and fathers. That could not entail commendations for when they disobey God and sin! In the same way we know that it was necessary that the soldiers would scourge the Sacred Flesh of our Blessed Lord, that they would mock His Royal Person, and sentence Jesus Christ to the most ignominious of deaths while pardoning a criminal instead of releasing the perfectly sinless and innocent Son of God. Those acts are also "negative evils" that were turned into good.

If your dad was Pontius Pilate, you should honor him as your father, but not for denying his own conscience in the matter of Christ's innocent crucifixion. If you were also a Christian (I am here thinking of Pilate's theoretical child, not you personally, Jim), you would recognize that God's instruments are the weak, the frail, the silly, and even the evil acts of mankind. In cooperation with every natural disaster to which His redeemed and loving children are subjected, Our Father in Heaven allows us to "take up our crosses", in imitation of His now glorified Son, enjoying the privilege of participation in the work of saving souls, in all respects destroying the work of Satan and "crushing his head" by turning every evil into good. That is the wonderful calling of the Redeemed, and it would be to misundestand the ways of God, and even rob Him of praise for His glorious work if we were to suggest that the Fall was meritorious. He who would praise our first parents for the Fall might as well praise the soldier who forced the crown of thorns deeper into our dear Saviour's bleeding scalp. That God knew that good results can be obtained from evil is no argument for praising any rebellious spirit or any intrinsically sinful act. These necessary acts, evil though they are, have in a certain sense become good and of value, but not apart from God's recreative work, and not apart from God's justice towards the perpetrators.

Thanks for your reply Jim. I hope this clarifies my position. If God be praised for creating good out of nothing, how much for creating even greater good out of worse than nothing? isn't that a wonderful consideration to ponder? That is how I think we must understand the references to the Fall of Adam in the Liturgy of the Vigil of Easter. May the good God be praised in His angels and in His saints, "per omnia secula seculorum".

Regards,

3DOP

Edited June 13, 2012 by 3DOP