Is This Scriptural?

[inquiringmind]

I was reading this today, and I was just wondering if it really says this (as clearly as it's said here) anywhere in the standard works?

The Telestial Kingdom: The Glory of the Stars

Even though this kingdom is the lowest degree of glory, it is still wonderful. According to Doctrine & Covenants 76:89, “the glory of the telestial… surpasses all understanding.” The Holy Ghost is able to operate in the telestial kingdom, but God and Jesus Christ are not there.

People who receive a telestial glory are those who reject the gospel of Christ and the necessary ordinances both in this life and after death. Unrepentant murderers and adulterers, for example, go to this kingdom. Due to the fact that they have not accepted Christ’s Atonement, they will need to suffer for their own sins before they are resurrected to the kingdom.

http://suite101.com/...-heaven-a108747

Edited May 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[ERayR]

I was reading this today, and I was just wondering if it really says this (as clearly as it's said here) anywhere in the standard works?

http://suite101.com/...-heaven-a108747

A mixture of truth and error.

[inquiringmind]

A mixture of truth and error.

Where is the error?

[Bob Crockett]

Where is the truth?

[ERayR]

A mixture of truth and error.

Get out a Doctrine and Covenants or pull one up online. Go to the 76th section and read it carefully and follow the foot notes and cross references. After you have done that come back and you can ask specific questions instead of general questions.

Edited to add: You should be able to have a much better understanding of the subject.

Edited May 31, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

Where is the truth?

See above.

[Freedom]

We can always go to the horses mouth:

81 And again, we ^asaw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the ^cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the ^atestimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who ^adeny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to ^ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the ^adevil until the ^blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the ^cLamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ^aministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ^aministering spirits for them; for they shall be ^bheirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the^atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of ^aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of ^aEsaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But ^areceived not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the ^beverlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be ^agathered with the saints, to be ^bcaught up unto the ^cchurch of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are ^athey who are ^bliars, and ^csorcerers, and^dadulterers, and ^ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the ^awrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the ^avengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to ^ahell and ^bsuffer the wrath of ^cAlmighty God, until the ^dfulness of times, when Christ shall have ^esubdued all enemies under his ^ffeet, and shall have^gperfected his work;

107 When he shall ^adeliver up the ^bkingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have ^covercome and have ^dtroddenthe ^ewine-press ^falone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be ^acrowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the ^bthrone of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ^ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall ^aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their ^aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own ^bworks, his own ^cdominion, in the ^dmansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be ^aservants of the Most High; but ^bwhere God and Christ ^cdwell they ^dcannot come, ^eworlds without end.

The message I get it that this place is glorious beyond our comprehensions, and it will be populated with those people most consider to be evil. It also indicates that they will be cast down to suffer, suggesting that, since they have rejected the atonement, they will have to suffer for their own sins. All must be clean before they are brought before the judgement bar. So, it appears to my simple mind, that your quote is quite accurate. But I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me on that cause you will not be covered by my errors and omissions insurance.

[David T]

Keep in mind that D&C 76 was received very early on, and even after wasn't commented on or used for about a decade. It was significantly before the Nauvoo Endowment rituals and doctrines were being developed, and the more devleoped concepts of work for the dead. Only at the end of his life, with new doctrinal understanding and perspectives, did Joseph begin to revisit and re-examine the multiple kingdoms, who was there, and what it meant. In other words, D&C isn't the final word on the matter, and later, expressions concerning the kingdoms were refined and revised. Just not in the text of the revelation itself (excluding the W.W. Phelps poetic paraphrase and expansion of D&C 76).

[inquiringmind]

We can always go to the horses mouth:

The message I get it that this place is glorious beyond our comprehensions, and it will be populated with those people most consider to be evil. It also indicates that they will be cast down to suffer, suggesting that, since they have rejected the atonement, they will have to suffer for their own sins. All must be clean before they are brought before the judgement bar. So, it appears to my simple mind, that your quote is quite accurate. But I'm not a lawyer so don't quote me on that cause you will not be covered by my errors and omissions insurance.

So does "received not" mean "rejected"?

Where does it say telestials rejected the Gospel?

[cdowis]

The telestial kingdom is commonly called "heaven" by Christians. When someone wants to go to heaven, that is what they are talking about -- good people living eternally in the presence of Christ. They have refused to take upon themselves the covenants necessary for exaltation, and are satisfied with what they have.

[Freedom]

So does "received not" mean "rejected"?

Where does it say telestials rejected the Gospel?

I think it goes with without saying that someone who lies, cheats, steals, murders and generally acts counter to the Gospel of Jesus Christ rejects the gospel. I believe that one can interpret the concept of 'received not' to suggest it is the receiver, not the giver, who is responsible.

[inquiringmind]

I think it goes with without saying that someone who lies, cheats, steals, murders and generally acts counter to the Gospel of Jesus Christ rejects the gospel

Even if they never heard it?

The source I quoted in the OP clearly said that those who had rejected the Gospel in this life inherited a telestial kingdom after they suffered for their sins.

From the passages I've seen quoted here, that doesn't seem clearly taught in the standard works.

Am I missing something?

[inquiringmind]

The telestial kingdom is commonly called "heaven" by Christians. When someone wants to go to heaven, that is what they are talking about -- good people living eternally in the presence of Christ. They have refused to take upon themselves the covenants necessary for exaltation, and are satisfied with what they have.

Refused?

As in heard?

[TAO]

Even if they never heard it?

They'll be responsible for what they do know is right and wrong, through the still small voice. Even those who are far away from the spirit, still have some knowledge, and they'll be judged to the best degree they can be.

The source I quoted in the OP clearly said that those who had rejected the Gospel in this life inherited a telestial kingdom after they suffered for their sins.

From the passages I've seen quoted here, that doesn't seem clearly taught in the standard works.

Am I missing something?

We all have to suffer for our unrepentant sins to a degree, I suppose.

[TAO]

Refused?

As in heard?

Yes, in the Spirit Kingdom, they will hear. Eventually they will accept, but not until after a lot of trials and suffering.

[Calm]

The telestial kingdom is commonly called "heaven" by Christians. When someone wants to go to heaven, that is what they are talking about -- good people living eternally in the presence of Christ.

I would disagree. All nonLDS Christians I know believe heaven is where the Father is as well as Christ and the Holy Spirit. It makes no sense to them to suggest that heaven is a place without the Father even if Christ is there.

Plus I think you meant "terrestrial kingdom" since the telestial only has the presence of the Spirit, not Christ.

Edited June 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[Freedom]

Rejecting the gospel is one of many characteristics that they have. Not all murder, not all rob, not receive a testimony of the gospel but still reject it. The division into three is symbolic in my opinion. It is like classifying animals. There are three general types of glory: the very good, the mediocre, and the very bad. It is not that complicated so I am not certain what you are trying to resolve. It is not like we can sit a person down, have an in depth interview and then determine which kingdom they will inherit. There will be those who reject the gospel in this life but end up in the Celestial kingdom. I suspect there will even be murders in the Celestial Kingdom. The examples are just that, examples. You need to look for the principles of the doctrine rather than try to attend to a scientific analysis of the categories.

[Nofear]

Rejecting the gospel is one of many characteristics that they have. Not all murder, not all rob, not receive a testimony of the gospel but still reject it. The division into three is symbolic in my opinion. It is like classifying animals. There are three general types of glory: the very good, the mediocre, and the very bad. It is not that complicated so I am not certain what you are trying to resolve. It is not like we can sit a person down, have an in depth interview and then determine which kingdom they will inherit. There will be those who reject the gospel in this life but end up in the Celestial kingdom. I suspect there will even be murders in the Celestial Kingdom. The examples are just that, examples. You need to look for the principles of the doctrine rather than try to attend to a scientific analysis of the categories.

I'm not personally persuaded the three kingdom divisions are "symbolic". D&C 88:22-32.

[mfbukowski]

So does "received not" mean "rejected"?

Where does it say telestials rejected the Gospel?

It does not mean rejected as far as my understanding- it means, to me, a stubborn refusal to consider the possibility that the gospel might be true, to think that religion is for "other people"- or kind of like "Religion? Oh- yeah, well I'm not into that particularly"

But there are stories of Joseph teaching that if we on this earth knew the glory of the telestial, we might be tempted to commit suicide and just go now- and of course IF one DID commit suicide that is where one would end up, perhaps.

But I have a methodology question for you. It seems you want only answers from the "standard works" but yet you come here to listen to the opinions of any dufus (like me) on the subject.

Honestly, none of us know more than you do at this point of where to get answers- you yourself are finding quotes I have never seen before on these questions you raise, and your research skills are obviously good and probably better than many here.

Go to the spirit and figure it out yourself. You don't need us. You gotta do it sooner or later- it's time to get pushed out of the nest and fly on your own.

[mfbukowski]

As if any of us know any more than the other.

[Nominee]

"Go to the spirit and figure it out yourself. You don't need us. You gotta do it sooner or later- it's time to get pushed out of the nest and fly on your own." ~mf

Alright, my quote button is not working. But, I agree. Your skills in research are fantastic, Inquiringmind. Still, eventually you are going to have to turn to the Spirit to get where you want to go. IMHO, the ease the Spirit will bring is life changing. Not because you "just know" but because things begin to happen and your work will be rewarded in a way I can't explain. God bless you, InquiringMind.

Regards, Naomi

edit: When your work is the Lord's work, life gets good. ~REALLY GOOD.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Nominee

[cinepro]

telestial kingdom 1. The only place in the hereafter where no one will be surprised to see anyone except himself. 2. The only place in the hereafter where you won’t have to make a bunch of new friends. 3. The only place in the hereafter where there will be enough Mormons to hold a really good softball tournament.

- Orson Scott Card

[inquiringmind]

But I have a methodology question for you. It seems you want only answers from the "standard works" but yet you come here to listen to the opinions of any dufus (like me) on the subject.

I'm not asking for opinions.

I'm asking those who I assume know the standard works better than I do for relevant quotes.

You and I have talked a lot about the nature of God, and your ideas on that subject make no sense to me.

I find it difficult to separate those ideas (i.e. God isn't the ontological cause of everything, we and the stuff we're made of are just as eternal as He is, and there is no ultimate cause of our existence) from the question of whether or not Joseph was a Prophet (even though one of my missionaries says he disagrees with you, believes that God is the cause of everything, and I shouldn't confuse such opinions with the teachings of the Church.)

I've already had all the lessons.

If I'm unable to separate Mormonism from the things most Mormons seem to believe about God, and I die without ever being able to think of God as a highly evolved primate (whose spirit--like all of our spirits--just happens to be one of an infinite number of uncreated entities), I'd like to know what kingdom your standard works would put me in.

Edited June 1, 2012 by inquiringmind

[mfbukowski]

I'm not asking for opinions.

I'm asking those who I assume know the standard works better than I do for relevant quotes.

You and I have talked a lot about the nature of God, and your ideas on that subject make no sense to me.

I find it difficult to separate those ideas (i.e. God isn't the ontological cause of everything, we and the stuff we're made of are just as eternal as He is, and there is no ultimate cause of our existence) from the question of whether or not Joseph was a Prophet (even though one of my missionaries says he disagrees with you, believes that God is the cause of everything, and I shouldn't confuse such opinions with the teachings of the Church.)

I've already had all the lessons.

If I'm unable to separate Mormonism from the things most Mormons seem to believe about God, and I die without ever being able to think of God as a highly evolved primate (whose spirit--like all of our spirits--just happens to be one of an infinite number of uncreated entities), I'd like to know what kingdom your standard works would put me in.

All you have to do is ask God that question. If you haven't learned that so far, it's not likely to happen I guess.

I'm sorry you don't understand my posts. The entire point of ALL my posts is that there is a difference between the way God really is, and how much we can know about that. Every single one of my posts deals with epistemology- not about what IS, but how we can KNOW what is. Big big big difference.

Some 19 year old kid can tell you what he thinks, or I can tell you what I think- but both of us are wrong. ITS WHAT YOU THINK THAT COUNTS.

We can only know what our puny brains put together about his greatness.

If you can't understand that, so be it, but don't try to blame your not converting on me. If anything stops you it will be your refusal to get an answer from the Source.

You should forget about what you THINK "most Mormons believe" and figure out what YOU believe, because when you come before the judgement bar of God, THAT is what is going to count.

When he says to you "Ah- I see you picked your religion by 'what most people believe'- and how do you think that will work for you, my dear son inquiringmind?", I would imagine that would be a hard question to answer.

________________________________________________________________

Another thought- who cares what the standard works say if you don't have a testimony of them anyway? Suppose every single one of your answers were right there- chapter and verse, perfectly worded to answer your personal questions.

How would you know they are right? You are going to have to make this your own decision sooner or later anyway- why not start at the beginning and stop listening to others and ask God if the standard works are true?

I'd like to know what kingdom your standard works would put me in.

Why would it matter if they are not God's word?

Edited June 1, 2012 by mfbukowski

[TAO]

I'm not asking for opinions.

I'm asking those who I assume know the standard works better than I do for relevant quotes.

Then the best thing would be to use those D&C quotes listed earlier. Read over them, ponder them, look at them, and figure out what God meant by them. Listen, and he will tell you, just like he tells all men when it becomes good to tell them.

You and I have talked a lot about the nature of God, and your ideas on that subject make no sense to me.

I find it difficult to separate those ideas (i.e. God isn't the ontological cause of everything, we and the stuff we're made of are just as eternal as He is, and there is no ultimate cause of our existence) from the question of whether or not Joseph was a Prophet (even though one of my missionaries says he disagrees with you, believes that God is the cause of everything, and I shouldn't confuse such opinions with the teachings of the Church.)

My advice would be that it is best to not worry quite so much about those things. What's important in the gospel is baptism, repentance, faith, and charity (among a few other things). But this little thing, it's tiny. It is not to be worried about. God is much more concerned about baptism, repentance, faith, charity, (and some other things) rather than what you believe about that beginning. It is more important to focus on the Gospel Essentials, so to say =).

If I'm unable to separate Mormonism from the things most Mormons seem to believe about God, and I die without ever being able to think of God as a highly evolved primate (whose spirit--like all of our spirits--just happens to be one of an infinite number of uncreated entities), I'd like to know what kingdom your standard works would put me in.

Yeah, not all Mormons believe quite the same things. But generally, those things are just details, compared to the really important things. Focus on the important things first. When the Spirit tells you it is time for you to focus on some of those other things, then you should focus on them, but wait until it asks you to do so; for the essentials, are, well, essential =).

As to the kingdoms, at least as far as I know, you would not be judged harshly for such a thing. But I could be very wrong; the only way you can tell for sure, is by the whisperings the spirit gives you. If the spirit tells you that believing in one or the other is really important, do that. If it tells you to not worry about it, do that instead =D. Follow the Spirit wherever it leads.

What I can tell you though is that there are alot of other things that matter more than this issue. =) Do those things for sure!

I hope you have a good weekend!

-TAO

Edited June 1, 2012 by TAO