Video Of The "Former Bishop'S" Presentation That I Attended

[blooit]

http://www.calvaryif...iovideo-studies

Bottom right

I'm unclear. I thought he said he didn't accept the offer to serve as a bishop, but served as a counselor.

Anyway - about half the congregation are former members. As I understand, they requested that Rick bring this guy in.

As a second question - Earl said this was his first presentation. Is this true? I thought he'd spoken out before, but maybe not at a church.

Edited May 6, 2012 by blooit

[blooit]

Sounds remarkably like Bill Maher, but from a different perspective. Following Pastor Rick's philosophy of relying on our own minds to verify truth, you would end up like this:

[ERMD]

He says he served as a bishop for 5 years in Sandy.

I'm only 12 minutes into it, and he's already either intentionally misrepresenting what the Church teaches, or his apostasy was brought about due to his own misunderstanding.

Too bad, really.

[wenglund]

Earl seems like a likable fellow, and aside from a few pejorative ways he stereotyped the Church and his remarkable lack of awareness of apologetic responses to several of the things that led to his loss of faith, I didn't have a problem with his approach. Obviously, I have come to a different conclusion from him, but I wish him well in his new faith. It seems apparent that he left the LDS faith for a faith of his own making--i.e. the Church of Who Has Left the Mormons. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Buzzard]

I listened to the first twenty minutes or so. I am incredulous that a person could grow up in the church and live his whole life here, including time in a bishopric, and claim not to be aware of these "issues". Most of them were discussed, and rather openly, when I took seminary in high school. Maybe he was on the back row and asleep?

[cinepro]

"With no further adieu..."

[Okrahomer]

"With no further adieu..."

"adieu" or "ado"? Either way, it seems to be much ado about nothing.

[DBMormon]

Listened to the Q&A (will listen to the rest later) also watched his 17 minute program on his site. I too see much biggger issues he could have grabbed at. It seemed he got hung up on what I would call the simple things that have a very good explanations. From what I have written on other threads I guess some might say that about me too though. EX: changes to the BOM on Jesus as father or son of the father. Jesus is the father in many senses (god of the OT) and yet he has a father. I understand the changes in an effort to help us see Christ as both a father and a son. No hangup there. I must say, I will need to look into the discussion on when PH was restored but even if Joseph doesn't mention it till 1834, Oliver Cowdery still has it as part of his witness as well, so if one wants to write off the PH being restored one has to explain Oliver's witness as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

... but I wish him well in his new faith. It seems apparent that he left the LDS faith for a faith of his own making--i.e. the Church of Who Has Left the Mormons. To each their own.

I wish him a spiritual experience such as that of Alma the younger (see Alma 36:6-24).

[Mark Beesley]

I wish him a spiritual experience such as that of Alma the younger (see Alma 36:6-24).

Ditto.

It is one thing to lose one's way. It is quite another to actively seek to destroy the faith of others.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

[Buzzard]

Compared to

Ditto.

It is one thing to lose one's way. It is quite another to actively seek to destroy the faith of others.

Compared to Alma or Saul, he seems pretty harmless. It seems like his anti-mormonism, like most, is mainly aimed at inoculating EV's against even talking to the missionaries more than anything else.

Kicking against the pricks ain't what it used to be, it seems.

[Scott Lloyd]

Compared to

Compared to Alma or Saul, he seems pretty harmless. It seems like his anti-mormonism, like most, is mainly aimed at inoculating EV's against even talking to the missionaries more than anything else.

Kicking against the pricks ain't what it used to be, it seems.

My point was that if we truly wish someone well, we wouldn't want him to continue in the destructive course of stridently endeavoring to harm the Church of Jesus Christ, however ineffective he might be at it.

Alma's family and the church were wishing him well. In fact, they were fervently praying for it, but the answer to their prayers involved him experiencing some unpleasantness.

[why me]

It seems that he doesn't think that mormons are christians. He keeps on stressing that he is a christian. Obviously, now when he thinks about his time as a mormon, he wasn't a christian. I said in the other thread that this would be his main thrust: he is now a christian and fellows Jesus and not the 'mormon' god.

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems that he doesn't think that mormons are christians. He keeps on stressing that he is a christian. Obviously, now when he thinks about his time as a mormon, he wasn't a christian.

Yes. He's following the party line.

I said in the other thread that this would be his main thrust: he is now a christian and fellows Jesus and not the 'mormon' god.

I'm confident Alma the younger was very sincere as well.

By the way, to adapt a line from the script of the "Ten Commandments," when Yul Brynner as Pharaoh ultimately acknowledged that "Moses's god is God," the "Mormon god" is God.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Yes. He's following the party line.

I'm confident Alma the younger was very sincere as well.

I have just listened to the talk. I do believe that he got his information from antimormon sites and not from his own research. The questions that he has are standard on antimormon sites. It does show that the internet is creating problems for members and it certainly has caused a problem for this man. Too bad really. And I don't think that he wanted to hear what FAIR had to say about it because the antis discount FAIR.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have just listened to the talk. I do believe that he got his information from antimormon sites and not from his own research. The questions that he has are standard on antimormon sites. It does show that the internet is creating problems for members and it certainly has caused a problem for this man.

In this case, it apparently has provided convenient boilerplate for one who, for whatever reason, has not framed his own contentions.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

He said that 'Mormons don't trust the bible'. Unbelievable. Also, the comment that the historian puts it on the shelf feels very standard from exmormons or critics. And now, he is actively attempting to convert family members. And this comment: if you take Christ out of mormonism what do you still have? Mormonism. But what would you have if you took christ out of christianity?

Something went wrong with this gentlemen. I feel sorry for him. His reasons for leaving seem too trite. But that is only my opinion. I think that now he is having his 15 minutes of fame with this church and with other born again churches throughout Idaho and Utah and with his own exmormon files.

Edited May 7, 2012 by why me

[volgadon]

But what would you have if you took christ out of christianity?

The Brothers Karamazov?

[why me]

One more thing: when the Pastor's church prays in public, they start their prayer with Lord....and they close with In the name of Jesus. But aren't they praying to Jesus when they pray to the Lord? And why do they close in Jesus' name if so? Because it seems like they are praying to two different people, the father but actually they are praying to Jesus.

[Log]

The Brothers Karamazov?

I would have said ianity, but yours is good too.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Log

[DBMormon]

I think some of you are being very hard on him in regards to to his reasons. I think he is sincere in how he felt in the process of leaving. I think while he has served a lifetime in the church, he doesn't understand basic doctrines very well. EX: in the Q&A session he states that heavenly father decided to go with Jesus's plan rather than Lucifer's... sorry but it was always HF's plan. Also I get a kick out of the preacher and the former member always talking about how prideful LDS are while they and the crowd laugh at every turn as he they joke about us for believing this whole thing........ first thought I had was the great and spacious building. I think many Mormons are prideful and I give him that, yet it seems those two and the congregation there are no different.

I also know that while I struggle at times I pondered today if I left how I would answer those questions.... It would be very differently across the board almost with each question.

[why me]

I think some of you are being very hard on him in regards to to his reasons. I think he is sincere in how he felt in the process of leaving. I think while he has served a lifetime in the church, he doesn't understand basic doctrines very well. EX: in the Q&A session he states that heavenly father decided to go with Jesus's plan rather than Lucifer's... sorry but it was always HF's plan. Also I get a kick out of the preacher and the former member always talking about how prideful LDS are while they and the crowd laugh at every turn as he they joke about us for believing this whole thing........ first thought I had was the great and spacious building. I think many Mormons are prideful and I give him that, yet it seems those two and the congregation there are no different.

I also know that while I struggle at times I pondered today if I left how I would answer those questions.... It would be very differently across the board almost with each question.

I think that he also 'lied' in the Q & A when he stated that he only began to read antimormon literature after he left the faith. It is rather clear that he was reading critic sites of mormonism as he was questioning and exiting the faith. Also, he got the born again lingo down pat when he creates a difference by stating the mormon god or the mormon jesus. The pastor is also stressing that mormonism is a cult. I think that it will be interesting that if Romney is elected president, this pastor will have to say that his President is a member of a cult.

[kolipoki09]

I think that he also 'lied' in the Q & A when he stated that he only began to read antimormon literature after he left the faith. It is rather clear that he was reading critic sites of mormonism as he was questioning and exiting the faith.

I think your analysis is correct. He actually started watching Shawn McCraney's The Heart of the Matter as early as 2007 - and has described how "mad" he was at McCraney when he began watching - noting elsewhere that his "coming out" as a fundamentalist Protestant to his family came in early 2011, with his formal renunciation on The Heart of the Matter in August 2011. He has alluded elsewhere to beginning an apologetic effort to "prove Shawn wrong" which ultimately led to his crisis of faith and conversion to fundamentalist Protestantism.

And for the original poster, Blooit, Bob Millet and Greg Johnson will be doing an LDS/Evangelical dialogue in Idaho Falls next month. Todd Wood is somewhat involved in it, as you're probably already aware. I certainly hope to be in attendance, and would extend a warm welcome to any other MDDB posters able to attend.

[why me]

I think your analysis is correct. He actually started watching Shawn McCraney's The Heart of the Matter as early as 2007 - and has described how "mad" he was at McCraney when he began watching - noting elsewhere that his "coming out" as a fundamentalist Protestant to his family came in early 2011, with his formal renunciation on The Heart of the Matter in August 2011. He has alluded elsewhere to beginning an apologetic effort to "prove Shawn wrong" which ultimately led to his crisis of faith and conversion to fundamentalist Protestantism.

Also, the pastor's definition of a cult in the questions and answers video section would include his own church since it is a one man show more or less. His name is everywhere on the website. I also wonder what the former bishop would think if the lds church in Idaho falls would come out with a fireside making the Calvery Church the focal point and discussing its false teachings, its cultic nature, and how its members do not know protestant history and how their 'ancestors' were responsible for burning mormon homes and murdering mormons in the 1830's and early 1840's.

That should go down well. It seems that any fool can stand on a pulpit and attack the lds church and say I am doing it because I am a christian and the lds are not.

[blooit]

He said that 'Mormons don't trust the bible'. Unbelievable. Also, the comment that the historian puts it on the shelf feels very standard from exmormons or critics. And now, he is actively attempting to convert family members. And this comment: if you take Christ out of mormonism what do you still have? Mormonism. But what would you have if you took christ out of christianity?

Something went wrong with this gentlemen. I feel sorry for him. His reasons for leaving seem too trite. But that is only my opinion. I think that now he is having his 15 minutes of fame with this church and with other born again churches throughout Idaho and Utah and with his own exmormon files.

When Pastor Rick closed the meeting, he said basically that they would attend Mormon meetings if they would just teach traditional evangelical christianity in their sermons, he then said, "If our Mormon friends would just read the Bible, as we know they don't..."

I found this misrepresentation interesting, in light of recent research that shows that Mormons read it more than almost anyone else.