The Power Of The Sealing

[Brian 2.0]

these quotations indicate that regardless of what a child does they will be exalted anyways so what is the point? should I drink, smoke, carouse all I want because my parents are pretty good and they've been sealed?

In Millet's book, he say he talked about these doctrines in private with some apostles and said, "Why don't we openly teach this continually, it would be a great help to parents of wayard children" and the response was that if they did it would give the youth ideas and they would have license to go and sin.

I'm paraphrasing here of course. I read the book on my mission, but don't have it any longer so I can't quote it directly . I looked on Amazon and someone commented that the kindle version has been edited and there are missing parts. Don't know if some stuff was taken out on the digital version.

But this doctrine still seems to be valid.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[Maidservant]

No one can be saved in their sins. Everyone must BECOME (change). But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child. Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children. The LOVE will WIN.

[rodheadlee]

So, I'll be able to hang out with my ex-wife, hold her hand, walk around heaven talking and laughing and reminiscing, enjoying each others' company - just as we did on earth - but I won't be a god and she won't be a goddess and we won't have "eternal increase". Does that sum it up?

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:

17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Edited April 24, 2012 by rodheadlee

[David T]

No one can be saved in their sins. Everyone must BECOME (change). But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child. Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children. The LOVE will WIN.

Especially when the Sealing of spouses is seen as symbolic between the relationship between Christ and His Bride (the Church), and the fruit that naturally arises from that unity.

[Duncan]

No one can be saved in their sins. Everyone must BECOME (change). But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child. Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children. The LOVE will WIN.

does God still feel after 1/3 of the hosts of heaven who didn't get a body? at some point though if a child doesn't accept Christ then what more can you do for them even in the next life? being there won't change anything as per the story of the rich man and lazarus, if they weren't persuaded here then they won't be there

[Brian 2.0]

On a more personal level...

My parents believe that i am lost and deceived because I no longer believe in a lot of the doctrines of the church, even though I still attend. My mother is heartbroken from it. Very heartbroken. I want to try and comfort her, and I feel that I can at least use some of the quotes I've used here to provide her some comfort for her. We have a good relationship otherwise, she just thinks I'm lost forever and her eternal family is broken because I'm the only child that no longer believes.

[Calm]

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:

17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Interesting idea, I've never heard that one before. Not sure I agree with the interpretation though.

[Calm]

On a more personal level...

My parents believe that i am lost and deceived because I no longer believe in a lot of the doctrines of the church, even though I still attend. My mother is heartbroken from it. Very heartbroken. I want to try and comfort her, and I feel that I can at least use some of the quotes I've used here to provide her some comfort for her. We have a good relationship otherwise, she just thinks I'm lost forever and her eternal family is broken because I'm the only child that no longer believes.

I believe there are several articles on lds.org that speak to this and talk about how faithful parents need not fear to lose their loved ones. I hope she is able to find peace and comfort for this subject and you as well. It would be hard to think a child is lost and hard for that child to know his parent thinks about him that way.

Edited April 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[Cobalt-70]

If we may picture our celestialized, sealed family as a tree, with God as the trunk and the rest of us as branches of varying thickness, I think that's a pretty good analogy to the way things will probably be. I think if we're not sealed to someone, they'll be on a different part of the tree, but we'll all still be unified, and whole.

The Celestrial Tree doctrine was widely taught in the 19th century (except that "God" was Adam). This was why Mormon men had themselves sealed to high priesthood authorities rather than their own fathers (so that they would be closer to the "trunk" of the tree. But this so-called "Law of Adoption" was suspended in 1894 (and the Adam-God doctrine before that), and I'm not certain that this doctrine has survived to the 21st century.

My guess is that most Mormons would consider that all the "Children of Christ" are of equal stature in the upper degree of the Celestial kingdom. Does anybody really believe that a god in the Celestial kingdom is subordinate his father (or the person other than his father to whom he is sealed)? That would make Joseph Smith subordinate to his father, and doubly subordinate to his grandfather, etc.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[rodheadlee]

Interesting idea, I've never heard that one before. Not sure I agree with the interpretation though.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.

I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness. So I think we will remember them no more.

[Duncan]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.

I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness. So I think we will remember them no more.

I think that that is taking a very liberal interpretation of that verse but you may be right? who knows!

[Cobalt-70]

Does anybody know whether parent-child sealings were conducted during the life of Joseph Smith? I haven't been able to find a reference to such sealings before Brigham Young instituted the practice of "adoption" in the Nauvoo Temple.

Joseph Smith did teach a different type of "sealing" between children and their ancestors, which was what he said Elijah brought to the Kirtland temple. This "sealing" has to do with baptism for the dead. It is the idea that what one does on the earth has an eternal effect in heaven. By doing baptisms for one's ancestors, those ancestors are "sealed" in heaven. See D&C 128:14, 127:7. The idea of husband-wife "sealings" was contemporary to Smith, because they were "sealed" into the New and Everlasting Covenant. But is there any evidence that the parent-child or adoptive "sealing" originated with Joseph Smith?

[seriously honestly]

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:

17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

That doesn't mention anything about not knowing each other anymore in the next life, just that earth--as we know it--will not be remembered.

[Calm]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.

I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness. So I think we will remember them no more.

I don't see how God could be omniscient if he lacked knowledge of those who lived in his kingdoms and if we are truly one with him in the CK, how could we lack this knowledge as well?

If we are separated from our loved ones, then I think we will be able to feel joy for them in their happiness that they have found because we trust in the Lord this judgment for them is the best of the best that could ever be for them according to the pure desires of their hearts (the impure ones having been purged).

I don't see everyone as desiring the same thing, some may even desire to be alone throughout eternity as hard as that may seem to some of us (I can relate at times, I enjoy very much being alone a good portion of my life, but wouldn't want it 24/7). A loving parent would never want a child to be coerced into doing something he did not enjoy for eternity.

Edited April 24, 2012 by calmoriah

[rodheadlee]

I don't see how God could be omniscient if he lacked knowledge of those who lived in his kingdoms and if we are truly one with him in the CK, how could we lack this knowledge as well?

If we are separated from our loved ones, then I think we will be able to feel joy for them in their happiness that they have found because we trust in the Lord this judgment for them is the best of the best that could ever be for them according to the pure desires of their hearts (the impure ones having been purged).

I don't see everyone as desiring the same thing, some may even desire to be alone throughout eternity as hard as that may seem to some of us (I can relate at times, I enjoy very much being alone a good portion of my life, but wouldn't want it 24/7). A loving parent would never want a child to be coerced into doing something he did not enjoy for eternity.

What about those in the Terrestial Kingdom, with family in the Lesser Kingdoms?

I was taught this back in my EV days so I'm not married to the idea. But the idea that Spammer was putting across was why bother to get sealed if he can have a relationship with his wife/ex wife in the Terrestial Kingdom.

[Gillebre]

The idea that those who do not become exalted having another veil of forgetfulness placed over their second estate, just as there is one over the first estate, is very interesting. I'd never thought of it, nor had I read that verse in Isaiah (65:17).

Another question, will the veil of forgetfulness covering our first estate be lifted if we do not become exalted? To inherit only telestial, terrestrial, or even celestial glory (not of the 3rd degree), and know for a fact that you failed (by remembering your premortal life, and all that happened), would truly be hell.

Imagine that in your premortal life, you made a special promise to Father that you would do everything you could to return. Then, after having lived on earth, died, and been judged and placed in the Terrestrial kingdom, you remember that solemn and sacred promise you made to Heavenly Father. Now, for the rest of your immortal existence, you are plagued by that promise, the knowledge that you failed your mortal probation. How can we be comforted? How can we be at peace? By not having that memory, perhaps?

It's an interesting idea. Would the Father take our eternal pain away by helping us forget our mortal journey? I don't know. Definitely something to think about.

[rodheadlee]

The idea that those who do not become exalted having another veil of forgetfulness placed over their second estate, just as there is one over the first estate, is very interesting. I'd never thought of it, nor had I read that verse in Isaiah (65:17).

Another question, will the veil of forgetfulness covering our first estate be lifted if we do not become exalted? To inherit only telestial, terrestrial, or even celestial glory (not of the 3rd degree), and know for a fact that you failed (by remembering your premortal life, and all that happened), would truly be hell.

Imagine that in your premortal life, you made a special promise to Father that you would do everything you could to return. Then, after having lived on earth, died, and been judged and placed in the Terrestrial kingdom, you remember that solemn and sacred promise you made to Heavenly Father. Now, for the rest of your immortal existence, you are plagued by that promise, the knowledge that you failed your mortal probation. How can we be comforted? How can we be at peace? By not having that memory, perhaps?

It's an interesting idea. Would the Father take our eternal pain away by helping us forget our mortal journey? I don't know. Definitely something to think about.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get across in this other thread.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57571-is-there-no-possibility-of-repentance-for-ex-mormons-who-die-without-returning/

To me inheriting a Telestial Kingdom would be eternal torment. Knowing that I could have inherited a Celestial Kingdom if I would have just listened to the Holy Ghost. I would be seperated from Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, my wife and my family for all eternity. How terrible!

[Brian 2.0]

So do children who are born sealed to their parents get more "chances" or benefits in the afterlife (assuming the parents are faithful) than those who were never sealed to anyone?

Person A: Born in the Covenant. Active until around his 20s. Believed at one point, but left the church. Went on to live a decent life, but never considered himself Mormon anymore. Parents remained faithful and active until their dying day.

Person B: Born into non-Member Family. Joined the church in high school. Served a mission. Believed. Afterwards fell away. Went on to live decent life similar to Person A. Parent never joined church. He was never sealed to anyone.

**For the sake of argument, these two people BELIEVED and then DISBELIEVED with the exact same amount of conviction.

Will these people have different opportunities or benefits in the afterlife?

Edited April 25, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[Duncan]

So do children who are born sealed to their parents get more "chances" or benefits in the afterlife (assuming the parents are faithful) than those who were never sealed to anyone?

Person A: Born in the Covenant. Active until around his 20s. Believed at one point, but left the church. Went on to live a decent life, but never considered himself Mormon anymore. Parents remained faithful and active until their dying day.

Person B: Born into non-Member Family. Joined the church in high school. Served a mission. Believed. Afterwards fell away. Went on to live decent life similar to Person A. Parent never joined church. He was never sealed to anyone.

**For the sake of argument, these two people BELIEVED and then DISBELIEVED with the exact same amount of conviction.

Will these people have different opportunities or benefits in the afterlife?

or child born to parents who were sealed but later got divorced, who gets what then?

[Tepui]

It's an interesting idea. Would the Father take our eternal pain away by helping us forget our mortal journey? I don't know. Definitely something to think about.

I doubt it. But we know the most righteous and the most vile individuals will not resurrect together.

The righteous will resurrect in the Morning of the First Resurrection. There will be souls resurrecting throughout the millennium and the most wicked at the end of it. I imagine their suffering will be so sore (D&C 19:17) that they'll be relieved when it's over and be happy with a Telestial Glory. But they certainly will not forget their mortal existence. That is necessary for a just and righteous judgement.

This notion that children sealed to parents, and the children being saved because of it, doesn't mean a wayward child will attain godhood or Exaltation like their parents. Exaltation and Salvation are not the same. I hope I'm wrong. But you can't deny justice. D&C 138:58-59. So the idea that you can go and sin then later inherit the same reward as your righteous parents, isn't correct thinking. If that were the case, there wouldn't be Three Degrees of Glory for all Eternity.

The Priesthood Sealing power - and being faithful to it (your covenants)- is also important to avoid this: Alma 34:35. You'll be sealed to someone else, and you'll have to suffer his torments - he'll have all power over you - until you come clean as mentioned in D&C 138. Remember the Lord warning Peter that Satan desired to sift Peter as wheat? O be wise, what can I say more? (Jacob)

[Brian 2.0]

This notion that children sealed to parents, and the children being saved because of it, doesn't mean a wayward child will attain godhood or Exaltation like their parents. Exaltation and Salvation are not the same. I hope I'm wrong. But you can't deny justice. D&C 138:58-59. So the idea that you can go and sin then later inherit the same reward as your righteous parents, isn't correct thinking. If that were the case, there wouldn't be Three Degrees of Glory for all Eternity.

According to the quote I posted from Lorenzo Snow, he says that the wayward children will be brought "into the path of exaltation and glory" though the power of the Priesthood. That seems to me that those children will eventually attain Godhood. He's not just talking about salvation only.

[Duncan]

According to the quote I posted from Lorenzo Snow, he says that the wayward children will be brought "into the path of exaltation and glory" though the power of the Priesthood. That seems to me that those children will eventually attain Godhood. He's not just talking about salvation only.

if that's the case i'm going drinking and dancing at the bar tonite! my parents sealing will cover me!

[Tepui]

According to the quote I posted from Lorenzo Snow, he says that the wayward children will be brought "into the path of exaltation and glory" though the power of the Priesthood. That seems to me that those children will eventually attain Godhood. He's not just talking about salvation only.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. You may have pointed that out.

You earlier said you don't believe in the doctrines or a lot of the doctrines of the Church. Why do you believe in this one and not the others? Doctrines of the Gospel are not mutually exclusive.

I think you believe in them more than you know.

[Duncan]

I think Pres. Snow's ideas as quoted above can be thrown out as per Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine” ( Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203).

it seems they conflict with the verses Tepui pointed out

[CV75]

if we are faithful, we'll be in the celestial kingdom anyway.

My take is that you will need to get sealed prior to the resurrection so as to be able to enter that kingdom--it is a matter of covenant, either inherited and then honored (by those born into it), or made and then honored (by those not born into it).