Local Congregation Hosting Former/Apostate Bishop

[blooit]

I have a pretty good relationship with several of my local pastors. One of the local congregations had an Easter performance that was designed primarily to counter LDS doctrine. Some of the members of this church were offended at how anti-LDS it seemed, but I can respect our differences. Then one mentioned that they are hosting an ex-bishop who will talk about why he left the church.

My problem is that I cannot remember the last time a former member of another religion was invited to talk about what they disliked about their former religion... but anyway...

I am tempted to ask the pastor if he'd like to also interview me on why I am still in the church despite having a strong belief in the Bible and being born again. I realize it would be an ambush, but I am tempted nonetheless just so that my side can be represented. If nothing else, I want the congregation to see that we may just have an argument as well, and how unchristian and pharisaical it is to have this sort of meeting.

Tempting.. because I think he may just go for it, but I doubt he would let me speak much other than to answer straw-man questions.

[Calm]

One of the local congregations had an Easter performance that was designed primarily to counter LDS doctrine.

That is very sad, of all holidays to celebrate the positives of faith, instead to use it to focus on the negatives one believes is in another's.

[cinepro]

Back in the 80s, my parents had a cassette tape from Deseret Book of a talk given by a minister from another Church who had converted to Mormonism. Doesn't sound too much different.

And then there's this:

I don't think much has changed, and if a pastor or minister from another Church converted to Mormonism today, they'd be welcomed to speak in any Stake in the Church.

Edited April 11, 2012 by cinepro

[Buzzard]

Back in the 80s, my parents had a cassette tape from Deseret Book of a talk given by a minister from another Church who had converted to Mormonism. Doesn't sound too much different.

And then there's this:

If the former bishop was talking about why he joined the EV's, I would have a lot less of a problem than with mormon-bashing. Just like I would have a problem with the former Catholic priest featured above if he talked about how horrible the catholics were, instead of how he found inspiration in the BOM.

[Duncan]

I would have a problem with anyone other-religion bashing at Church, regardless of what they called themselves

[blooit]

Back in the 80s, my parents had a cassette tape from Deseret Book of a talk given by a minister from another Church who had converted to Mormonism. Doesn't sound too much different.

And then there's this:

I don't think much has changed, and if a pastor or minister from another Church converted to Mormonism today, they'd be welcomed to speak in any Stake in the Church.

I see clear differences here - the main focus of this presentation will be his "escape from Mormonism" - very different. I have many convert friends, with the exception of one Jewish friend, I don't know where they attended church before they came. I know what they are, not what they aren't.

[Evangeline]

If the former bishop was talking about why he joined the EV's, I would have a lot less of a problem than with mormon-bashing. Just like I would have a problem with the former Catholic priest featured above if he talked about how horrible the catholics were, instead of how he found inspiration in the BOM.

I was going to say essentially the same thing. I would feel very uncomfortable hearing anyone get up at the pulpit and start putting down another religion. On the other hand, I love listening to people's conversion stories. It is possible for someone to convert to another religion and maintain deep respect and gratitude for the religion they moved away from.

[Pahoran]

Back in the 80s, my parents had a cassette tape from Deseret Book of a talk given by a minister from another Church who had converted to Mormonism. Doesn't sound too much different.

And then there's this:

I don't think much has changed, and if a pastor or minister from another Church converted to Mormonism today, they'd be welcomed to speak in any Stake in the Church.

Are you really unable to tell the difference between "Why I joined X" and "Why I left Y?" Is that distinction -- which actually seems quite plain to me -- really too subtle for you?

It's been a while since I watched "How Rare a Possession," so you'll have to enlighten me: just how much footage is devoted to discoursing on the flaws of the various converts' previous churches?

I will allow that LDS conversion stories and ex-Mormon "perversion stories" do indeed have one thing in common: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most important feature of both of them.

Blooit, I'd say, if you have the opportunity, go for it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[BCSpace]

I am tempted to ask the pastor if he'd like to also interview me on why I am still in the church despite having a strong belief in the Bible and being born again.

Despite? LDS have as strong a belief in the Bible and being born again as anyone else.

[LDSToronto]

Are you really unable to tell the difference between "Why I joined X" and "Why I left Y?" Is that distinction -- which actually seems quite plain to me -- really too subtle for you?

It's been a while since I watched "How Rare a Possession," so you'll have to enlighten me: just how much footage is devoted to discoursing on the flaws of the various converts' previous churches?

I will allow that LDS conversion stories and ex-Mormon "perversion stories" do indeed have one thing in common: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most important feature of both of them.

Blooit, I'd say, if you have the opportunity, go for it.

Regards,

Pahoran

Blooit - can you provide a flyer, program, playbill, or other such evidence that this ex-bishop is going to be talking about leaving Mormonism?

Also, how can you be sure that he will be as controversial as Pahoran makes him out to be? And how will this be any different than the standard Fast & Testimony favourite, "I attended many other churches and none of them had the spirit, but then I found the LDS church..."?

I thing you are exaggerating. Please prove me wrong.

H.

[Saints Alive]

Toronto:

Do you really not see the difference between someone saying they didn't feel the spirit in another church and a former leader saying that Mormons dont believe in the same jesus, the BOM is a lie, JS was a fraud, etc.

[Buzzard]

I thing you are exaggerating. Please prove me wrong.

H.

Mr. Toronto, surely you are aware that there is an entire cottage industry of traveling ex-LDS (who all claim to be former bishops, it seems) going around giving talks and seminars. Some get a fee up front, others ask for donations "to keep this important ministry going" as part of the presentation. While I am not familiar with the particulars in this case, it seems pretty much par for the EV course.

[Jaybear]

Toronto:

Do you really not see the difference between someone saying they didn't feel the spirit in another church and a former leader saying that Mormons dont believe in the same jesus, the BOM is a lie, JS was a fraud, etc.

The way I look at it, your church should do what it thinks is in it best interest to keep and/or grow its membership.

Other churches should do what they think is in thier best interest to keep and grow its membership.

As long as you continue to send an army of missionaries out in the world seeking converts, you should stop pretending to be suprised that some of the churches see that their best defense is a good offense.

[Saints Alive]

As long as you continue to send an army of missionaries out in the world seeking converts, you should stop pretending to be suprised that some of the churches see that their best defense is a good offense.

Even if it means that you use outright lies and diliberate misrepresentation. And I understand that can cut both ways. I'm not talking about the young missionary or enthusiastic pastor who doesn't know any better, these "former Bishops" should know better.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That is very sad, of all holidays to celebrate the positives of faith, instead to use it to focus on the negatives one believes is in another's.

Agreed...what kind of Easter message would that be?

[oats]

Blooit - can you provide a flyer, program, playbill, or other such evidence that this ex-bishop is going to be talking about leaving Mormonism?

Also, how can you be sure that he will be as controversial as Pahoran makes him out to be? And how will this be any different than the standard Fast & Testimony favourite, "I attended many other churches and none of them had the spirit, but then I found the LDS church..."?

I thing you are exaggerating. Please prove me wrong.

H.

The OP said:

One of the local congregations had an Easter performance that was designed primarily to counter LDS doctrine. Some of the members of this church were offended at how anti-LDS it seemed, but I can respect our differences. Then one mentioned that they are hosting an ex-bishop who will talk about why he left the church.

I think that is where the assumption that it will primarily be focused on an anti-LDS message. Apparantly they turned an Easter performance into such a fest, so it seems like that might be the motivation behind inviting a 'former LDS bishop' to talk about why he left the church.

Sure, could turn out to be an exaggeration. But I've been a few of these types of talks, speeches, sermons, whatever, and they generally have a tone that is primarily meant to tear down someone else rather than primarily to build up what they believe. I realize it is a nuance that many overlook.

[why me]

That is very sad, of all holidays to celebrate the positives of faith, instead to use it to focus on the negatives one believes is in another's.

This should be no surprise. I am sure that the early saints during easter were facing persecution from the protestant sects that surrounded them. At times, those who profess to be good christians can fumble the ball near the goal line when it comes to the lds church and their negativity toward the lds faith.

[why me]

Back in the 80s, my parents had a cassette tape from Deseret Book of a talk given by a minister from another Church who had converted to Mormonism. Doesn't sound too much different.

I don't think much has changed, and if a pastor or minister from another Church converted to Mormonism today, they'd be welcomed to speak in any Stake in the Church.

I think that much has to do with tone. If a former catholic who joined the lds church gave a rant or a anticatholic fireside I think that that would be out of line. But to talk with respect of another faith and yet, explain why they joined a different faith would be in good taste.

[why me]

Are you really unable to tell the difference between "Why I joined X" and "Why I left Y?" Is that distinction -- which actually seems quite plain to me -- really too subtle for you?

Regards,

Pahoran

I am finding it amazing just how much negativism there is on other christian boards about the lds church. And yet, having just read the April Ensign and English version of the Liahona, I really don't see all that much to be negative about. For example: how can one be negative about a church that encourages children and parents to speak with one another as written in the Liahona article? Not to mention other great advice that is needed for today's world. And yet, the hatred on the catholic site and other christian sites toward the lds church is strong and vibrant. I am amazed. And this holds true for the OP's ex-bishop speech. I am sure that it will be a doosey.

[why me]

I thing you are exaggerating. Please prove me wrong.

H.

Lets hope that you are right. But I doubt it. These talks seem to be rather negative about the mormon church. Usually, one hears about the mormon god and how mormons are not christian. But the mormon god remark is a standard bearer for such talks. Besides, have you read much positive on the other board or have you been reading about a cult? This is another standard for such talks. .

[why me]

I think that is where the assumption that it will primarily be focused on an anti-LDS message. Apparantly they turned an Easter performance into such a fest, so it seems like that might be the motivation behind inviting a 'former LDS bishop' to talk about why he left the church.

And it is not going to get any better, unfortunately. Like I stated above, it seems that no one is reading the actual lds message: to love god, attempt to obey his commandments, be good people, love your neighbor, pray, be thankful for life, be great mothers and fathers, have charity, friendship, guardians of virtue....should I go on?

And yet, the lds get abuse upon abuse from other christian groups. Amazing.

[Jaybear]

And yet, the lds get abuse upon abuse from other christian groups. Amazing.

Why do find this amazing?

The other Christian groups genuinely and sincerely believe that the LDS path is a path away from Christ.

Hard to respect a religious leadership, that would sit back and allow its members to be led away from Christ by LDS missionaries.

I don't blame you for being angry if they are lying about the LDS church. But where the examaple is bringing in a bishop to explain why he left the LDS Church, don't see that anyone here has shown that anyone is lying.

[why me]

Why do find this amazing?

The other Christian groups genuinely and sincerely believe that the LDS path is a path away from Christ.

Hard to respect a religious leadership, that would sit back and allow its members to be led away from Christ by LDS missionaries.

It is the language and the tone which seems to have much hatred in it. The hatred when they discuss mormonism is quite deep. As is the misunderstandings. Anyone who would read the Liahona or Ensign with an open mind, will see that the mormons lead good lives, keep christ at their center and attempt to be righteous in life. Nothing much to hate in the lifestyle and in the advice given in the magazines. And that is my point. I see it as being very christ centered...

But it is the hatred and not the disagreement that I am amazed about. No christian love at all exhibited by many christians.

[cinepro]

Agreed...what kind of Easter message would that be?

I don't think LDS are in any position to criticize the quality of "Easter services" at other churches. While I recognize that each ward makes a different level of effort, I have sat through more than one Easter Sacrament Meeting that was almost indistinguishable from a regular meeting (and that wasn't because our regular meetings are overflowing with talks about Jesus and the atonement).

[cinepro]

I'm not sure if this is the same guy from the talk I heard years ago, but here is a story that Elder Rector Jr. told in Conference in the 1970s.

If the same story were told at a Lutheran church, but it was in reverse (an LDS Bishop joining the Lutheran Church), would you object?

So said the prophet David O. McKay. To illustrate I would like to share with you a conversion story. The account concerns Louis Novak, a Lutheran minister, and his wife, Alice, and their two children, Kurt and Kristin. Reverend Novak and his wife had been born, baptized, raised, confirmed, and married in the Lutheran Church. It was with a sense of pride on the part of his parents and a sense of duty on his own part that he went through two Lutheran private colleges and a Lutheran theological graduate school to become a pastor in the American Lutheran Church. For nearly fourteen years he and his wife served in the Lutheran Church and endeavored to find truth and spiritual peace. During that period, from all external appearances, they were able to attain a level of income, style of life, social stratum, and educational prestige which left little to be desired. With such stability and high approval from family, friends, and supervisors, it could be said “they had it made.” Yet they were not satisfied. They had haunting insecurity in their souls that something very basic and important was missing in their lives. They could not be satisfied.

The soul that is honest in heart must search.

In Reverend Novak’s words, “As I look back on my life and experience, I realize my dissatisfaction stemmed from a number of areas. [First] I had a deep and negative reaction to my association with my fellow pastors. The strong and seemingly overwhelming stress on church politics, self-advancement, personal glory, financial achievement, and congregational statistics made me feel that true spirituality was seriously lacking.

“[second] I had deep theological concerns—the order of worship service seemed cold, impersonal, and unimaginative. The great stress on salvation by grace and minimization on works was to me a scriptural contradiction. On contemplating scripture I found that the ‘works’ passages far exceeded the ‘grace’ passages.

“I found myself recoiling at the indifferent reaction of my church leadership to the virgin birth, the creation, the wide acceptance and use of loose translations of scripture and the general lack of response to basic Christian morals.

“Was God really dead, or had He gone into retirement and ceased to care about His creation? Why did He sink into strange and sudden silence with the last word in the Bible?”

On September 1, 1968, Reverend Novak and his family moved to Broomfield, Colorado, where he was made pastor of the Lutheran Church of Hope, a very prestigious and desirable assignment. From all outward appearances it left nothing to be desired, but there was something desperately wrong. Something was missing: there was a feeling of spiritual hollowness in his heart and it was shared equally by his wife, Alice.

Alice was a music educator and in Broomfield she had a number of Latter-day Saint students. She could not help but notice something very special about them. She reported to her husband that she had asked one of her Mormon students if Mormons were Christian. Of course, Reverend Novak knew well the Lutheran position that Mormons were non-Christian. The little Mormon girl boldly stated that Mormons most definitely were Christian.

Alice had been touched by the young girl’s testimony. Next came an invitation from the family of one of the piano students to attend the Broomfield Ward open house. The young student’s family had resisted because they did not think it appropriate to send such an invitation to a Lutheran pastor. But this little girl persisted to the point that the parents reluctantly consented.

On the appointed day Alice was unavailable to attend the open house and Reverend Novak was hosting a regional meeting of the Lutheran Church of Hope. As the time for the open house arrived he had a strange and overpowering urge to leave the Lutheran meeting and attend. He yielded.

As he entered the Latter-day Saint chapel he said he was met by a friendly and concerned gentleman who talked with him and stayed by his side for fully two hours, answering questions, and “just being supportive.”

The Reverend continues, “As the program began, a member of the Seventies made a presentation on the doctrine of the Church which I am sure was inspired by the Holy Spirit. I shall never forget it. From the chapel we were led to the baptismal font by a young priest who explained baptism according to the theology of the Latter-day Saints. This mature presentation by such a young man made a great impression, because I had seriously questioned the Lutheran theology of baptism for years. I sensed that what this young man said was true.

“We then went to the Relief Society room where we were given a beautiful and intelligent presentation. To hear a lovely woman give such a positive and strong testimony was heartwarming to me. We were then ushered into a seminary room to view the film Christ in America. I could hardly contain my excitement as so many of my questions regarding church history were suddenly answered.

“I was currently pursuing a doctorate in religion. Here I was, my doctorate nearly complete and the answers to my quest for the truth coming in the Latter-day Saint chapel! It was probably at this time, at the culmination of so much presented so well, that I was actually converted. I knew that this had to be the true church. My heart was ready but how could I become a part of it all? How hard it is to give up physical security and comfortable tradition. I purchased a Book of Mormon that day and went home elated. I remember telling Alice later, ‘There is something special there. I really felt good at that church. They have something I have never known before.’

“The summer of 1974, after I had received my doctorate, I was in spiritual turmoil. The ward open house remained a haunting reminder that something better was available. One evening the mother of one of the Mormon students called regarding a musical question. For the first time I bared my spiritual turmoil to a patient and understanding ear.

“Not long after this our family was invited to their family home evening. We came away so warmed; yet how impossible it seemed for us to make such a change. My job, security, comfortable life, social standing, family ties, house, pension—it all flooded through my mind. Yet how does one in the name of Jesus Christ preach and teach that which he knows is not true?

“Finally in the fall of 1974, although things were still going well at my parish, I knew in my heart that a change was necessary. I knew I was spiritually starved and I was even more concerned for the spiritual malnutrition of my family.

Edited April 11, 2012 by cinepro