Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 It is none of their business whether they paid any tithing or not. You are supposed to do the work for your closest relatives (if they died within the previous hundred years). If a closer living relative exists, you are supposed to ask their permission before you do the work. I have an aunt who died more than twenty years ago. Her husband is also dead. But her children (not Mormons) are still living. I would have to ask their permission before doing the work for her. I could lie about it on the website and do the work anyway, but then I would be acting against Church policy. If I have dead ancestors who died more than a hundred years ago, then no permission is required, because I can claim as much relationship to the person as anybody else, and I have as much right to do the work as anybody else does to oppose it. So still it is none of their business.Yeah, I did the work for my stepmother, but didn't ask my step-siblings' permission to do so. This leads me to worry that they are going to find out and get mad at me, so I try not to bring the subject up when we talk. Fortunately we live about 1000 miles apart so this doesn't happen often. I kind of felt like I had the right to do it, but on the other hand I probably don't. I imagine that my stepmother doesn't mind, since I had her sealed to her favorite husband (my Dad), but you never know. I can't seal her to anyone else (two other husbands whom she outlived) because they are REALLY not related to me.
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Even non-members who are family of deceased who have had their temple work done? It's none of their business because they didn't pay tithing?What other things are not their business because they don't pay tithing?H.Tithing has nothing to do with it. You can have access to new.familysearch regardless of whether you've EVER paid anything at all to the church. You needn't have attended Church in 10 years go have access. I guess you do know this, but just for others' benefit: just having a current membership in the Church is all it takes. Get your LDS account using your membership number and confirmation date and you're in.
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 LDSToronto:How could a nonmember pay tithing? I suppose a nonmember could give a donation of whatever they wanted, but that would not make it tithing. Does my giving a few bucks to the Salvation Army every Christmas give me the right to tell the Salvation Army what to do?What?! Of course nonmembers can pay tithing! Where'd you get the idea that they couldn't? It doesn't happen often, but it happens. There's a nonmember who attends our ward all the time who pays tithing. Don't ask me why he does and yet doesn't get baptized, but that's his business.
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 LDSToronto:If a person is not a member it is not tihing. No matter what is put on the slip of paper. It does not establish any obligation on the part of the Church. Including that it certainly doesn't permit a nonmember any right to tell the Church what to do.Of course it is tithing. What kind of nonsense do you think you're spouting? Making it up as you go along or something? When the commandment was issued about tithing the Lord didn't lay out an exception. Just because someone isn't a baptized member that doesn't mean they get a free pass on that. Once you become aware of a commandment from the Lord you are obligated to obey it -- the only free pass is ignorance. But paying tithing doesn't give someone any privilege conditioned upon baptism and confirmation; that's separate.They only people from whom the Church will not accept tithing from are excommunicated members. And THAT'S a policy. Simple non-members can pay anything they want. Heck, even people who've had their names removed from the records can pay tithing if they want.Although excommunicated persons are urged to save what would have been their tithing until the day when they get reinstated, so they can catch back up. If they want.
Jeff K. Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 That the church hasn't done anything to keep unauthorized names from being submitted...According to the articles, this should help with the names of Holocaust victims. There is nothing to indicate it will help with any other unauthorized name. But I hope it does because that would be awesome.That is incorrect. It has done something, and it stops people from trying to look up names they shouldn't. It requires them to physically go forth and present their lineage in order to have access. The fact that it stops "mischief makers" like Toronto et al from putting in holocaust names is part of the process. Sorry if it doesn't float your boat, but then it wasn't meant to now was it?
mfbukowski Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 If you are not in possession of a temple recommend or are not a member of the LDS Church committed to doing temple work, why should you have the right to peruse the LDS Church's temple records? Not to be too gentle, but it is none of your (their) business! Member funds are not to be used to satisfy the prurient interests of non-members. Tithing funds, which go to promote this technology and software, is not provided for non-members. Our tithing funds are used to provide access to genealogy records for all freely at great cost. I suggest that you don't look that gift horse in the mouth and just say thank you.As is clear, I have pretty much had it up to "here" with whining about something of which non-members have no comprehension.On the other hand, making it "secret" would give them something else to complain about- and every genealogist on the planet- member or not- uses our sites and research, so it is a bit of a missionary tool as wellLike they say, no good deed goes unpunished!
thesometimesaint Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Stargazer:Am I tithing when I put a couple of bucks into the Salvation Arrmy pot at Christmas time? Does that give me any right to have any say on what they do?
mfbukowski Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) mbufkowski: it is the surface tension of water and the size and mass of the ants that keeps them afloat. If water has much less surface tension then ants might sink in it, assuming that their density exceeds that of water -- easy to check if you have the volume of an ant and the mass of it.That's largely why they float.OOPSTalking past each other. I know why ants don't float. I believe the reference was to baptizing dead anti-mormons being hard because they "float"- and my reply was that "They all float down there".It was a reference to a movie called "It" - the one with the evil clown and the balloons?- and the other evil guys- it was said that they "all float down here".When you came back with the surface tension deal I thought you were going along the line my demented brain was leading me....... The vagaries of online communication...... Edited March 8, 2012 by mfbukowski
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 This is very much the business of the Jewish community whom the church made an agreement to over 15 years ago. They promised to keep Jewish names (non-ancestors of living LDS members) out of the database. They have had difficulty keeping that promise in the years following the agreement.When you make a promise to someone it becomes their business if you are keeping it or not.If the church has a policy or rule that celebrities not be submitted for ordinances by a non-family member and it is discovered that this policy is not being followed it is something that becomes of interest to members and the general public. It seems that bringing it to public attention is the only thing that causes change. Although, we usually see the change in the form of restricting access to the ordinance information, not making it more difficult to submit unauthorized names.(I'm quite fond of purple, large letters as well)Keeping in mind that if a descendant of a Holocaust victim does his or her work for him, then the name definitely belongs in the database. There are a number of Jews who have become Mormons. There are some born LDS who descend from Jewish ancestors. High Nibley was one such: Alexander Neibauer was one of his ancestors. There's a Mormon Jew organization called B'nai Shalom: http://www.israelrevealed.com/bnai-r.htmThe Church policy is that members should not do work for people they are not descended from. But they may do work for any and all of their ancestors, Jew or Gentile.
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Am I tithing when I put a couple of bucks into the Salvation Arrmy pot at Christmas time? Does that give me any right to have any say on what they do?When one donates anything to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (even through Deseret Industries), he must fill out a donation form. On it, the donor indicates what fund it is for. There's no different whether one is or is not a Saint: choose the fund. So, if someone checks "Tithing", the money goes into the Tithing Fund. If he says it's a Fast Offering, guess where it goes.(For Deseret Industries, all donations go to welfare and humanitarian projects, as I understand it, so there is no way to specify: after all, what's the difference between a duck?) Edited March 8, 2012 by LeSellers
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Stargazer:Am I tithing when I put a couple of bucks into the Salvation Arrmy pot at Christmas time? Does that give me any right to have any say on what they do?I am resisting the impulse to go ballistic on you. Of course you're not paying tithing when you put money into a SA pot. Is it even CALLED tithing? Nope. Nobody thinks it's tithing, not even the SA. And paying tithing, even to the Salvation Army gives you no right to say what they do, nor does it give you the right to say what the LDS do. Even if you're a member! Like I said, the privileges of ordinances and so on is conditioned upon your membership in the church -- just that the payment of tithing entitles you to certain other privileges if you are also a member.Go ahead, go to your bishop and try to tell him that you have a right to tell him how to run your ward, just because you pay tithing. Please video it and put it on YouTube. I want to watch.
Storm Rider Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 The reason I brought up tithing is that it is tithing dollars that pay for the computer systems. If I am wrong, correct me. No non-member has the RIGHT to demand anything of the Church!
mfbukowski Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 A good metaphor for habitual critics...Cruelty to animals! PETA! 911!!
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 OOPSTalking past each other. I know why ants don't float. I believe the reference was to baptizing dead anti-mormons being hard because they "float"- and my reply was that "They all float down there".It was a reference to a movie called "It" - the one with the evil clown and the balloons?- and the other evil guys- it was said that they "all float down here".When you came back with the surface tension deal I thought you were going along the line my demented brain was leading me....... The vagaries of online communication...... Yes, surface tension. I know you weren't quite tracking with what I was saying, but it was too much fun watching the ensuing hilarity. Actually, I am not entirely sure if it is surface tension alone, or if the ants are coated with something that is immiscible with water. That fire ant video looks a little like the ants might have some kind of oily coating.Thanks, LDSToronto, for mentioning "ant-Mormons". The results brightened my day!
Stargazer Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) The reason I brought up tithing is that it is tithing dollars that pay for the computer systems. If I am wrong, correct me. No non-member has the RIGHT to demand anything of the Church!Not that I've heard, but then again, I don't think MEMBERS have the RIGHT to demand anything. Privileges exist for obedience, of course, but beyond those there is nothing one can demand and expect to get. What on earth do you expect to get, anyway? Everyone is welcome to come to church meetings, for instance, and tithing certainly pay for the buildings they occur in. Edited March 8, 2012 by Stargazer
Duncan Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Keeping in mind that if a descendant of a Holocaust victim does his or her work for him, then the name definitely belongs in the database. There are a number of Jews who have become Mormons. There are some born LDS who descend from Jewish ancestors. High Nibley was one such: Alexander Neibauer was one of his ancestors. There's a Mormon Jew organization called B'nai Shalom: http://www.israelrev....com/bnai-r.htmThe Church policy is that members should not do work for people they are not descended from. But they may do work for any and all of their ancestors, Jew or Gentile.one of the best Bishops I ever had was Jewish, very, very spiritual guy!
cdowis Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) When one donates anything to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (even through Deseret Industries), he must fill out a donation form. On it, the donor indicates what fund it is for. There's no different whether one is or is not a Saint: choose the fund. So, if someone checks "Tithing", the money goes into the Tithing Fund.As the ward finance clerk, I was instructed that tithing can only be counted for those who are full members of the church. Edited March 8, 2012 by cdowis
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 As the ward finance clerk, I was instructed that tithing can only be counted for those who are full members of the church.Then things have changed.I know excommunicated and disfellowshipped members cannot pay tithing, although they can make other offerings.Lehi
Storm Rider Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 As the ward finance clerk, I was instructed that tithing can only be counted for those who are full members of the church.What is a half-member of the Church? Does one sign up for that position?
wenglund Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Nefarious purposes? Like checking to see if the church is honoring their agreement?To bad the position of "busy-body" is self-appointed because there is no way to, as Donald Trump may say, "your fired."Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Duncan Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 I am wondering and I have no evidence whatsoever but maybe the Church got into some deal with leaders of the Jewish community so that they have access to the names and thereby eliminating the Helen Radke's of the world, mormon or otherwise.
Jeff K. Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 <p class="sociable"> AJC Welcomes Renewed Mormon Efforts to End Baptisms of Holocaust VictimsBy American Jewish CommitteePosted: 12:42pm on Mar 7, 2012; Modified: 12:47pm on Mar 7, 20122012-03-07T17:47:11ZAmerican Jewish CommitteeNEW YORK, March 7, 2012 — /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- AJC expressed appreciation for the renewed commitment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) to prevent proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims and other well-known Jews.The LDS Church leadership's mandate comes in the wake of recently reported proxy baptisms of murdered Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl and prominent Jewish Holocaust victims. The First Presidency of the Mormon Church has reiterated, in a letter read at LDS Church congregations worldwide, a 1995 policy prohibiting the submission of such names for baptisms."We applaud the LDS Church efforts to ensure that all Mormons follow its policy of prohibiting posthumous baptism of Jewish Holocaust victims and celebrities," said Rabbi Noam Marans, AJC Director of Interreligious and Intergroup Relations. "LDS leaders have stated clearly to us that this banned activity will not be tolerated."The Church leaders' letter, which was also posted on LDS meetinghouse bulletin boards, states, "Without exception, Church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims." Members who violate the policy will forfeit their genealogical search privileges, the letter stated.SOURCE American Jewish Committee Read more here: http://www.bradenton.com/2012/03/07/3923831/ajc-welcomes-renewed-mormon-efforts.html#storylink=cpyhttp://www.bradenton.com/2012/03/07/3923831/ajc-welcomes-renewed-mormon-efforts.htmlhttp://www.bradenton.com/2012/03/07/3923831/ajc-welcomes-renewed-mormon-efforts.htmlHow much does anyone want to bet that the anti Mormons on this board will still complain?
LeSellers Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 How much does anyone want to bet that the anti Mormons on this board will still complain?I would take that bet for all I have (were I a bettin' man). They'll always complain—because the Church is the center of their lives. For some of them, it's even more central than it is to many of us Saints.Lehi
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.Thanks, -Wade Englund-I would not give a key to my house to a thief. It is not that I have anything to hide, but it is my property. Critics will complain no matter the position we take.
frankenstein Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 To bad the position of "busy-body" is self-appointed because there is no way to, as Donald Trump may say, "your fired."Thanks, -Wade Englund-It is a shame that now the church is effectually trying to hide information and considering the quote highlighted by Jeff k the church does need to hide information; as the Jewish community is convinced that proxy work for holocaust victims is prohibited, which may or may not be the positionof the church
Recommended Posts