Mormon Church Blocks Whistle-Blower’S Access To Proxy Baptism Data

[KevinG]

Accessing the site has nothing to do with tithing, and has everything to do with membership of the Church. It is designed exclusively for members of the Church. You need your membership number to register. Now there are many Church members who are not faithful tithe payers. They may even be inactive members. But they still have access to the site by virtue of their membership of the Church. The system is expensive and costs money. That money comes out of the tithes of Church members. But still, all members have access to it by virtue of their membership of the Church. Non-members do not have access to the site. Since it is a Church system, the Church has the right to decide whom to grant access to the system, and whom to deny. It has decided to give access to members, and refuse access to non-members. The fact that the system is paid for by the tithing donations of Church members, that is one of the factors that legitimized the Church to decide whom to grant access to the system and whom not to. But it is not the only reason. Paying for the system is one of the factors that gives the Church the right of ownership of it, to decide whom to give access to and whom not to. But ultimately, the decision to give access to Church members and deny access to non-members is not related to tithing in the Church. The genealogical libraries for example are also expensive and are paid for out of the tithing of Church members. But non-members are given full access given to those facilities gratis, as a favor from the Church.

Zerinus,

He knows this... he was just creating a false dilemna by conflating use of the system with management of the system. Your efforts to explain are probably going to waste with those who are purposefully being obtuse in order to whine about how the church is doing it wrong.

The anti-mormons, troublemakers and critics are just sore because the solution to the problem of abuse to the system included denying everyones unauthorized access including them.

[Stargazer]

As the ward finance clerk, I was instructed that tithing can only be counted for those who are full members of the church.

As the branch finance clerk I was instructed no such thing. And being that this is a singles branch, we get new people popping in all the time for whom we have no membership records, and if they pay tithing, we put a finance record in for them and attribute the amount of tithing they pay to that account. And it goes to SLC like everything else.

Who instructed you this, anyway? Not saying you're wrong, but given that our stake finance clerk has been a FC practically his whole life, and he never said anything of the kind. I'd have to CFR your claim, not to be adversarial or anything, but if your "instruction" reflects genuine policy then I would need to conform to it. So, if you please...

[LDSToronto]

Whose sign on are you using? Helen Radkey would probably appreciate you sharing.

My own. I don't share my access credentials.

H.

[Stargazer]

Then things have changed.

I know excommunicated and disfellowshipped members cannot pay tithing, although they can make other offerings.

Lehi

No, only excommunicated members are not allowed to pay tithing (well, not exactly, the church is not supposed to accept it, they could theoretically pay it anonymously).. Disfellowshipped ones are not so restricted.

[wenglund]

could someone explain why a person should not be in the database looking for names that are not suppose to be there?

Evidently, busy-bodies believe the onus is NOT on them to justify their busy-bodying. See what I mean about the futility in try to reason with them?

KevinG, you can fire cannons full of logical grapeshot from here to eternity, raking them up and down, but as with all smoke, they will not be fazed, but will continue to billow.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Pahoran]

Whose sign on are you using? Helen Radkey would probably appreciate you sharing.

H has told us that he is still a member in name. Thus, he still has a membership record, hence a record number. So he can log in under his own account.

In the early days of his apostasy, he used to claim that his Stake President knew what he was up to and was okay with it. He was also very protective of his IRL identity. In fact, he still is, stating baldly that he does not trust us. Does not trust us to do what? 2+2=?

Regards,

Pahoran

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

He knows this... he was just creating a false dilemna by conflating use of the system with management of the system. Your efforts to explain are probably going to waste with those who are purposefully being obtuse in order to whine about how the church is doing it wrong.

The anti-mormons, troublemakers and critics are just sore because the solution to the problem of abuse to the system included denying everyones unauthorized access including them.

Thank you Kevin; but I like conversing with him anyway.

Edited March 9, 2012 by zerinus

[cdowis]

Not saying you're wrong, but given that our stake finance clerk has been a FC practically his whole life, and he never said anything of the kind.

Just ask him to check into it rather than "he didn't tell me."

Edited March 9, 2012 by cdowis

[LDSToronto]

H has told us that he is still a member in name. Thus, he still has a membership record, hence a record number. So he can log in under his own account.

In the early days of his apostasy, he used to claim that his Stake President knew what he was up to and was okay with it. He was also very protective of his IRL identity. In fact, he still is, stating baldly that he does not trust us. Does not trust us to do what? 2+2=?

Regards,

Pahoran

Why do you need to know my name? Nemesis told us to remain anonymous. What would you do if you knew who I am?

[frankenstein]

Well glad to this is just another UBER ALLES LDS evidenced by complete lack of intelligent discourse on why a person should not be permitted to search for names that are not suppose to be in the data base.

[KevinG]

Why do you need to know my name? Nemesis told us to remain anonymous. What would you do if you knew who I am?

I'm sure he's just curious. Why the blind faith in the moderators? Probably just exercise his free speech rights and start a public discourse.

[wenglund]

Well glad to this is just another UBER ALLES LDS evidenced by complete lack of intelligent discourse on why a person should not be permitted to search for names that are not suppose to be in the data base.

See what I mean, KevinG? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[KevinG]

Well glad to this is just another UBER ALLES LDS evidenced by complete lack of intelligent discourse on why a person should not be permitted to search for names that are not suppose to be in the data base.

There has been more than sufficient discourse on why it is a terrible idea to allow unfettered access to the database. Unfortunately for those who would innocently volunteer to abuse-check the database out of the goodness of their hearts the access was restricted due to the bad behavior of those who could not refrain from submitting or accessing names that should not be in the database.

This is a great example of how when a sufficient number of people lack virtue we all to lose our liberty.

[KevinG]

See what I mean, KevinG? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yup! With a subtle "Godwin" violation as a bonus. They are so cute when they think they are clever.

[Stargazer]

I think you got that wrong. Tithing is recorded against your name and membership number in the Church. You can't pay tithing if you are not a member. When you receive your tithing receipt, in it in your name as it is recorded in the Church's membership records. You can pay other kinds of voluntary donations if you are not a member, but not tithing. The person you are referring to is probably making other voluntary donations. Excommunicated members cannot pay tithing. They are advised to save their tithings, and pay it after they have repented and been rebaptized into the Church (unless the policy has changed). I may be mistaken, but I think another way that exed members can pay tithing is through another member of record who is able to pay tithing. The donation will be recorded against the other person's membership name.

I don't think I got that wrong. I'm a finance clerk for cryin' out loud. Since I've already posted on the subject, let me elaborate a little further.

If we get a donation from a completely anonymous source, and the donation slip says the amount is for tithing, then if I don't already have a donor account named "Anonymous" then I create one and attribute that donation to it. I then send it in to SLC just like every other donation. The only thing I am not going to do, for obvious reasons, is create an end-of-year donation / tithing settlement statement for "Anonymous".

You may not live in the US, and so details may differ where you are, but in the US (and Canada I believe) the Church keeps two sets of books when it comes to membership vs finance records. Persons in a unit for whom a membership record exists and who have also donated funds have effectively two local records. One is their membership record, and the other is their financial record. The two are associated relationally using their membership number. But if someone donates and they are not a member of the ward, then I create a finance record for them and associate their donation with that. If their membership record arrives later, then I will manually join the two records. If no membership record ever pops up, then no harm no foul.

I do this all the time. We get a lot of membership turbulence in this multi-stake singles branch.

Oh, and by the way, if someone who is definitely not a member of the Church and is not an excommunicated member shows up and donates funds stated as tithing then we would accept it cheerily, record it with the non-member's name, and at the end of the year we would provide him a tax-valid receipt for his or her use in tax filings. Heck, he could even come to tithing settlement if he wanted -- although as a non-member his name would not get sent in to SLC in the tithing settlement report, because that definitely relies upon a membership record having existed during the year (the system can tell because the membership number is tacked on, and if not, then it knows he isn't a member). In fact, when i create a new finance record for a donor who has not yet donated, one of the options is to specify that the donor is not a member of the church.

[Ares]

Well glad to this is just another UBER ALLES LDS evidenced by complete lack of intelligent discourse on why a person should not be permitted to search for names that are not suppose to be in the data base.

Indeed you have Godwinned the thread.