Does God Know Who Will Be Exalted?

[Duncan]

In the Book of Abraham we learn that God and the Saviour will "prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whcih the Lord their God shall command them" (paraphrase) and also from Abraham we know that the Lord knows all things from the beginning, so, do you think the Lord knows who will be exalted? why would he say he wants to see who will do what if he knows the end of things?

[mbh26]

I personally believe God knows all that can be known. If God knew who would make it and who would not, that puts Him in a very difficult position. Why wouldn't people who would not have made it just asked Him beforehand if this venture was a good idea or not?

I believe we have an element of ourselves that I'd call our will that is under our control only. I can't see how anyone could account for every decision that each individual will might make. It's impossible to know with exactness.

If God knew everything that was to happen in the future, how would that knowledge not effect the decisions of God living in the past? Inevitably an event in the future has effected an event in the past. That's illogical.

[zerinus]

In the Book of Abraham we learn that God and the Saviour will "prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whcih the Lord their God shall command them" (paraphrase) and also from Abraham we know that the Lord knows all things from the beginning, so, do you think the Lord knows who will be exalted? why would he say he wants to see who will do what if he knows the end of things?

Yes, God knows the end from the begonning; He knows who will be exalted. Why does He say that He wants to test us to see if we would be obedient? Because of He didn't put us through the test we couldn't be exalted. He puts us through the test so that those of us who are faithful can be exalted. It is another way of saying, "We will put them through the test so that those of them that are faithful may be exalted".

Edited March 9, 2012 by zerinus

[blackstrap]

I don't pretend to understand it,but it seems with God there is no future,or past for that matter.Time is linear and unidirectional to us.Not so with God.

[Duncan]

Yes, God knows the end from the begonning; He knows who will be exalted. Why does He say that He wants to test us to see if we would be obedient? Because of He didn't put us through the test we couldn't be exalted. He puts us through the test so that those of us who are faithful can be exalted. It is another way of saying, "We will put them through the test so that those of them that are faithful may be exalted.

it would seem though that life is just a hurdle and nothing more, yet it can be exceedingly difficult to the point of overwhelming and as we have seen in Church History being faithful isn't a once and your always it deal

[BCSpace]

My guess is that God knows to within a great degree of accuracy who is going to make it and who is not. Perhaps He knows for sure at this very moment where you'll end up if you die now but the farther in time He has to look, the less accurate He gets.

[zerinus]

it would seem though that life is just a hurdle and nothing more, yet it can be exceedingly difficult to the point of overwhelming and as we have seen in Church History being faithful isn't a once and your always it deal

I didn't quite get that, and in any case, you now appear to be changing the abject completely. I don't see what relevance this has to the OP.

[zerinus]

My guess is that God knows to within a great degree of accuracy who is going to make it and who is not. Perhaps He knows for sure at this very moment where you'll end up if you die now but the farther in time He has to look, the less accurate He gets.

I don't accept that.

[BCSpace]

My guess is that God knows to within a great degree of accuracy who is going to make it and who is not. Perhaps He knows for sure at this very moment where you'll end up if you die now but the farther in time He has to look, the less accurate He gets.

I don't accept that.

I have no problem with it because I am comfortable with the notion that God is omniscient and omnipotent relative to us. In other words, my answer to the question "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it." is no.

[zerinus]

I have no problem with it because I am comfortable with the notion that God is omniscient and omnipotent relative to us. In other words, my answer to the question "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it." is no.

God's omnipotence and omniscience is not relative but absolute.

[altersteve]

God's omnipotence and omniscience is not relative but absolute.

So God can do anything? Can He create something ex nihilo?

[BCSpace]

I have no problem with it because I am comfortable with the notion that God is omniscient and omnipotent relative to us. In other words, my answer to the question "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it." is no.

God's omnipotence and omniscience is not relative but absolute.

Compared to us, it is absolute.

[CV75]

In the Book of Abraham we learn that God and the Saviour will "prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whcih the Lord their God shall command them" (paraphrase) and also from Abraham we know that the Lord knows all things from the beginning, so, do you think the Lord knows who will be exalted? why would he say he wants to see who will do what if he knows the end of things?

Becausse He sees all things, He also sees from our perspective--we shall see if we will do all things which the Lord our God shall command us. This is part of the process whereby we see as we are seen, and are known as we are known, but only as we receive His fulnes (D&C 76:94).

I beleive it was Neil A. Maxwell who taught, “The one thing we can give Him that he does not have and that He will not take is our wills.” The only thing we can truly give God, who already has “everything” or "all things", is our will, which He freely gave to us and which we use freely. So in this sense He sees if we will give Him our will, or agency, which is also the process related to the scripture above.

[thesometimesaint]

God knows, but he usn't telling us.

[CV75]

One more idea: Abraham 3: 22-26 has something else to say about "we” and “them” and “these” that migh also give some idea about "who knows what, when.":

“We” (us current mortals) were among the intelligences in verse 22. Some of us were made “my rulers” (the Lord’s servants), for example Abraham (verse 23). Some of us, such as Abraham, eventually became one with God, and some sooner than others (D&C 132:57; 2 Peter 1:10; verse 26).

Those intelligences who were with Christ, who was like unto God, were those beings He included as “we” when He said, “We [Christ and those who were with Him] will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these [all the intelligences] may dwell; And we [Christ and His anointed] will prove them [all the intelligences] herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God [ultimately the Father, through His Son] shall command them… (verses 24-25)” So the “we” is not Heavenly Father and Christ, but all who were invited to participate and included in Christ’s initiative.

Collectively, we are still finding out, while individually many have; likewise, collectivity at this stage we don't lnow all things but God certainly does, as do all who are one with Him, once they are one with Him.

[CV75]

One more thought: as the Father turned away from Christ at the end of the crucifixion so that Jesus could offer His will fully according to the power He had, in a less dramatic way (but nonetheless as effective) the Father turns from us with regard to what we do to offer our agency or our wills fully to Him. As a practical result, the Father does not know the subjective experience of that which He has separated from Himself completely and given unto us (our will). Though He certainly knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, I believe the agency supporting those thoughts and intents is something else. He would never choose wrongfully as we do, and would never submit His will to another, as we do, so He does not “know” or experience that aspect of what we are (the Son did that in the Atonement).

[BCSpace]

In the Book of Abraham we learn that God and the Saviour will "prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whcih the Lord their God shall command them"

Perhaps it means "prove to themselves". In that case though, it wouldn't say anything about the omniscience of God.

[Duncan]

One more idea: Abraham 3: 22-26 has something else to say about "we” and “them” and “these” that migh also give some idea about "who knows what, when.":

“We” (us current mortals) were among the intelligences in verse 22. Some of us were made “my rulers” (the Lord’s servants), for example Abraham (verse 23). Some of us, such as Abraham, eventually became one with God, and some sooner than others (D&C 132:57; 2 Peter 1:10; verse 26).

Those intelligences who were with Christ, who was like unto God, were those beings He included as “we” when He said, “We [Christ and those who were with Him] will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these [all the intelligences] may dwell; And we [Christ and His anointed] will prove them [all the intelligences] herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God [ultimately the Father, through His Son] shall command them… (verses 24-25)” So the “we” is not Heavenly Father and Christ, but all who were invited to participate and included in Christ’s initiative.

Collectively, we are still finding out, while individually many have; likewise, collectivity at this stage we don't lnow all things but God certainly does, as do all who are one with Him, once they are one with Him.

that is what I was thinking as well, I wonder if we would say that Christ wasn't perfected whil ehere in mortality, obviosuly more then us, but not resurrected yet and so he didn't have all power and perfection until he was resurrected so he knew more but not who would be exalted

[zerinus]

it would seem though that life is just a hurdle and nothing more, yet it can be exceedingly difficult to the point of overwhelming and as we have seen in Church History being faithful isn't a once and your always it deal

The way in which God sees our faithfulness from His eternal perspective may not be the same as ours. You remain as faithful as you can be and know how, and trust God to do the rest.

Edited March 9, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

So God can do anything? Can He create something ex nihilo?

God's omnipotence is absolute without being able to do anything?

[KevinG]

...at least as well as I know which of my children is likely to complete their homework tonight without being reminded.

[altersteve]

God's omnipotence is absolute without being able to do anything?

So He can create something ex nihilo?

[KevinG]

So He can create something ex nihilo?

If we could comprehend exactly how God works we would likely be gods ourselves. People debating the nature of God remind me of small children pretending to understand what their parents to. Right now we're playing with the little tykes kitchen and office set while pretending to cook or work a job.

[stemelbow]

Sometimes I wonder if I can even stomach exaltation. How can I be happy with myself if I become exalted knowing that millions or billions of others are left out for doing what seems to be not much less or worse than me (and in some cases more and better--I'll never be Michael Jordan in basketball even though I've spent much time, sometimes when I was younger, dreaming I was)? I do sometimes get the feeling that God knows where I'll end up and it ain't gonna be exaltation. All too often I feel foolish, weak, stupid, and just overall incapable. When I seek God I do feel as though He sees me as a mediocre person who can be useful in some limited sphere, but not someone He's willing to turn a lot over to. Perhaps I'm destined to be something less than exalted. And perhaps before this all started He said, "you're going to reach and stretch and come up short when it comes to being like me, but you'll be happy and satisfied. You still wanna do it?" Yessir.

[Duncan]

I know a lady who doesn't want to go to the Celestial Kingdom and I don't know what to say to her other then maybe we will change our minds when we get to the ther side but by then it will be too late, especially if you're a member here