Does God Know Who Will Be Exalted?

[zerinus]

Agency is His very life; without it He would not exist (D&C, Book of Mormon).

Whose agency? His agency, our agency, or both? And do you think you could be a bit more specific with the references?

So when He gives His children agency, it is like exhaling, and when we return it to Him, it is like inhaling—He cannot do both at once or simultaneously.

The way I understand this is that "agency" is a "measured quantity" which can be either God's or ours, and that we have it "on loan" from Him, which at some point we "return" to Him. I am not sure I am understanding this. I don't think we will ever "lose" our agency in that sense; and I don't think that is what Elder Maxwell had in mind when he talked about our "giving back" our agency to God. I think it means submitting our will to the will of God; or doing what God wants us to do, as opposed to what we may want to do.

I understand that the nature of agency entails a “fundamental principle” or particle of knowledge that He gave away, that is entirely our own and upon which our own exaltation, as His, is dependent. This is why He does not know who will be exalted before or until they are. But He certainly knows "all things" necessary to be God.

What is the source of this information? I cannot see how it is derived from what God has revealed.

[zerinus]

I have been trying to find Elder Maxwell's quote, but haven't been able to. If you have it, a reference would be appreciated.

[CV75]

That is not quite the kind of “seeing” that I was referring to.

<snip>

(Edit) I think this will also adress your other posts that follow:

One cannot have faith in something and at the same time know it (Alma). If faith and knowledge are not the same thing, and one precedes the other, each in turn, even in the eternal round, and if God exercises faith, then His faith precedes His knowledge, and His knowledge precedes His faith, but at no point do both His faith and His knowledge simultaneously occupy the same Mind on the same point. Some may think this is a function of His self-mastery (He “waits”), and some may think it is the eternal principle by which He abides, but in either case, He either has perfect faith or perfect knowledge on the principle in question (in this case, each individual's future exaltation), but not both simultaneously.

If God shows someone something He sees, He is either sharing His faith (if what He sees is seen by His faith) or His knowledge (if what He sees is what He already knows).

Yes, God has faith in Himself. This leads to knowledge in and of Himself. Which in turns lead to more faith, and so on eternally (as in eternal increase; each child is a new application of this principle). He shares His faith and knowledge with us so that we can also have faith and knowledge. He gives us agency. Because of the dynamics of agency and knowledge, God’s faith still precedes the miracle of our exaltation, or the fulfillment of our agency and the attendant knowledge. This goes way beyond just knowing the thoughts and intents of our hearts at any given moment.

RE: your concern with “Knowledge contained within our agency,” I did explain this from eh scripturs, in post # 34. I will attempt to explain it perhaps in other terms here:

The verse Moses 7:32, “…I gave unto them [my children] their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency…” associates knowledge with agency, which is a “uniquely personal thing... that is ultimately sovereign (see Maxwell quote below).” As such, God does not control our agency, nor access the unique and sovereign knowledge that is part and parcel of it.

D&C 93:24 & 30 show how agency is inextricably linked with knowledge. Truth is knowledge. Truth acts for itself (agency); intelligence (the light of truth, or the light of knowledge) acts for itself (agency); and these define / mean / result in existence. Knowledge and agency at this level of operation are functionally the same thing. So where God gives us and then leaves our agency alone, He also leaves that knowledge alone. He turns away from it just as He turned away from His dying Son.

I am not asserting that God is uncertain about anything; He is certain His plan works; He can have this certainty (faith) and still not know who will be exalted.

I am not saying that it is impossible for us to have agency if God at the same time is able to know what the outcome of our exercise of that agency will be. I am saying He gave us our agency (that knowledge) and therefore does not know who will be exalted ahead of time.

My ideas have nothing to do with God using His knowledge to interfere with our agency, as He does not interfere with our agency no matter what He knows. What I am describing is the exact opposite. As explained above, there is an aspect of our agency that operates outside His knowledge, and He is omnipotent enough to allow that to occur.

The example you use about God’s foreknowledge, to me, is precisely the definition of God’s faith—God's faith is what operates before, then results in, His knowledge, and so can be called “before-knowledge”, which is why it is called God's “foreknowledge.”

The Neal A. Maxwell quote is from a personal journal entry I made in January 2001, which I think can be found in the August 2000 Ensign (according to the timing of my entry--coincidentaly I am transcribing my old handwritten journals and came across this entry just as this thread opened up), which was based on a January 1999 BYU talk:

“I am going to preach a hard doctrine to you now. The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. It is a hard doctrine, but it is true. The many other things we give to God, however nice that may be of us, are actually things He has already given us, and He has loaned them to us. But when we begin to submit ourselves by letting our wills be swallowed up in God's will, then we are really giving something to Him. And that hard doctrine lies at the center of discipleship. There is a part of us that is ultimately sovereign, the mind and heart, where we really do decide which way to go and what to do. And when we submit to His will, then we've really given Him the one thing He asks of us. And the other things are not very, very important. It is the only possession we have that we can give, and there is no resulting shortage in our agency as a result. Instead, what we see is a flowering of our talents and more and more surges of joy. Submission to Him is the only form of submission that is completely safe.” http://speeches.byu....der.php?id=3590

I will try to locate the exact quote as I copied it into my journal, but the above teaches the same thing, so in the interest of time I’ll post this as-is.

(Edit) I see from your other posts that you are asking the same things in different ways, and I believe the scriptural references support the idea that agency translates into existence, even God’s.

Edited March 12, 2012 by CV75

[ERayR]

Then you agree with me. Not only is Heavenly Father sure of the immediate consequences of any action, but he knows the periphery consequences and how it will affect the decisions of all His children everywhere. Heavenly Father is not a really really good guesser. We need the experience to fill the niche of who we are. It is one reason that I ask Heavenly Father what action He would like me to take, since it is for the best in the long run.

God is not a "good guesser" he has a complete understanding of cause and effect. He is able to see what the immediat effects are and wht the ripple effects of those actions will or can be. It is always the wisest course to consult him and even wiser to develop the ability to listen and understand his answers. Ah but that is the hard part.

[ERayR]

The generic question at issue in this thread is "Does God have infallible foreknowledge of the future?" The scriptures do not say that He does; quite the opposite, in fact, as serious research into this question should have already revealed to the sincere seeker of knowledge. Google is your friend.

Brigham Young taught explicitly that God was, in fact, progressing in knowledge, and always would be, and this view is consistent with the Scriptures. How can this be? Simply: mankind has libertarian free will.

What, then, can God possibly be learning? About you and the decisions you make in various conditions, trials, and temptations.

Not arguing but please give me a reference where BY said that God would always be progressing in knowledge. Thank you.

[Jeff K.]

God is not a "good guesser" he has a complete understanding of cause and effect. He is able to see what the immediat effects are and wht the ripple effects of those actions will or can be. It is always the wisest course to consult him and even wiser to develop the ability to listen and understand his answers. Ah but that is the hard part.

Doesn't that define omniscience?

[Rob Osborn]

The element of choice limits God on what can be known. I honestly believe that when God first created Lucifer, he did not believe that he would become Satan.

[Jeff K.]

I think he did know, but also knew why the existence of Lucifer was important to progression. The element of choice is irrelevant to what God can know in my opinion because knowledge does not limit another person's choice from their perspective. As an issue it is one that continues to vex since even in the church there is no real consensus on the issue. I myself believed that knowledge was unlimited and therefore the definition of Eternal Progression, now however I am more convinced of omniscience in its truest absolute where Heavenly Father is concerned.

[zerinus]

One cannot have faith in something and at the same time know it (Alma). If faith and knowledge are not the same thing, and one precedes the other, each in turn, even in the eternal round, and if God exercises faith, then His faith precedes His knowledge, and His knowledge precedes His faith, but at no point do both His faith and His knowledge simultaneously occupy the same Mind on the same point. Some may think this is a function of His self-mastery (He “waits”), and some may think it is the eternal principle by which He abides, but in either case, He either has perfect faith or perfect knowledge on the principle in question (in this case, each individual's future exaltation), but not both simultaneously.

Joseph Smith talks about faith as a principle of action (i.e. motivation); and also of power in all intelligent beings. One’s faith becomes a principle action when it motivates one to act in certain ways that he otherwise wouldn’t. For example, believing that there is a God motivates one to seek after Him in order to find Him. It becomes a principle of power when it enables us to use it to accomplish something with it which otherwise we wouldn’t be able to do, such as performing a miracle. When Joseph Smith talks about God having “faith” in Himself, because of His omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, he is talking about the power element of God’s faith, rather than His motivation. God does not acquire any “knowledge” by virtue of the exercise of His faith; because He already has all knowledge. On the contrary, it is His knowledge and power that enables Him to exercise faith in Himself to accomplish everything that He wishes (Abraham 3:17).

If God shows someone something He sees, He is either sharing His faith (if what He sees is seen by His faith) or His knowledge (if what He sees is what He already knows).

It could be neither. If I had a visitor, and took him to Disneyland sightseeing, I am neither sharing my faith, nor my knowledge (except in a limited way perhaps); but merely sowing him what is already there, on the ground, quite independent of me, my faith, or my knowledge. If the future is something that already exists (as the past), and I have a key that unlocks the door into the future that enables me to see it, then it is something that already exists independent of me. It doesn’t exist just in my faith, or just in my knowledge, but has an independent reality which I am able to be cognizant of.

Yes, God has faith in Himself. This leads to knowledge in and of Himself. Which in turns lead to more faith, and so on eternally (as in eternal increase; each child is a new application of this principle). He shares His faith and knowledge with us so that we can also have faith and knowledge. He gives us agency. Because of the dynamics of agency and knowledge, God’s faith still precedes the miracle of our exaltation, or the fulfillment of our agency and the attendant knowledge. This goes way beyond just knowing the thoughts and intents of our hearts at any given moment.

RE: your concern with “Knowledge contained within our agency,” I did explain this from eh scripturs, in post # 34. I will attempt to explain it perhaps in other terms here:

The verse Moses 7:32, “…I gave unto them [my children] their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency…” associates knowledge with agency, which is a “uniquely personal thing... that is ultimately sovereign (see Maxwell quote below).” As such, God does not control our agency, nor access the unique and sovereign knowledge that is part and parcel of it.

D&C 93:24 & 30 show how agency is inextricably linked with knowledge. Truth is knowledge. Truth acts for itself (agency); intelligence (the light of truth, or the light of knowledge) acts for itself (agency); and these define / mean / result in existence. Knowledge and agency at this level of operation are functionally the same thing. So where God gives us and then leaves our agency alone, He also leaves that knowledge alone. He turns away from it just as He turned away from His dying Son.

I am not asserting that God is uncertain about anything; He is certain His plan works; He can have this certainty (faith) and still not know who will be exalted.

I am not saying that it is impossible for us to have agency if God at the same time is able to know what the outcome of our exercise of that agency will be. I am saying He gave us our agency (that knowledge) and therefore does not know who will be exalted ahead of time.

My ideas have nothing to do with God using His knowledge to interfere with our agency, as He does not interfere with our agency no matter what He knows. What I am describing is the exact opposite. As explained above, there is an aspect of our agency that operates outside His knowledge, and He is omnipotent enough to allow that to occur.

The example you use about God’s foreknowledge, to me, is precisely the definition of God’s faith—God's faith is what operates before, then results in, His knowledge, and so can be called “before-knowledge”, which is why it is called God's “foreknowledge.”

Thank you. You teach an interesting doctrine in a language that is too esoteric and metaphysical for me to be able to agree or disagree with. All I can say at the moment is that the idea of God not knowing who will be exalted does not sit comfortably with me. It seems to me to be a contradiction of the principle of the omniscience of God. I will think about that for a time, and if further ideas come to my mind later on I will share it on the board.

The Neal A. Maxwell quote is from a personal journal entry I made in January 2001, which I think can be found in the August 2000 Ensign (according to the timing of my entry--coincidentaly I am transcribing my old handwritten journals and came across this entry just as this thread opened up), which was based on a January 1999 BYU talk:

“I am going to preach a hard doctrine to you now. The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. It is a hard doctrine, but it is true. The many other things we give to God, however nice that may be of us, are actually things He has already given us, and He has loaned them to us. But when we begin to submit ourselves by letting our wills be swallowed up in God's will, then we are really giving something to Him. And that hard doctrine lies at the center of discipleship. There is a part of us that is ultimately sovereign, the mind and heart, where we really do decide which way to go and what to do. And when we submit to His will, then we've really given Him the one thing He asks of us. And the other things are not very, very important. It is the only possession we have that we can give, and there is no resulting shortage in our agency as a result. Instead, what we see is a flowering of our talents and more and more surges of joy. Submission to Him is the only form of submission that is completely safe.” http://speeches.byu....der.php?id=3590

I will try to locate the exact quote as I copied it into my journal, but the above teaches the same thing, so in the interest of time I’ll post this as-is.

Thank you. It can also be found here, with better formatting of the text.

Edited March 13, 2012 by zerinus

[CV75]

the power element of God’s faith *** (Abraham 3:17).

It could be neither. *** something that already exists independent of me. It doesn’t exist just in my faith, or just in my knowledge, but has an independent reality which I am able to be cognizant of.

*** the principle of the omniscience of God.

God exercises faith to accomplish everything He wishes, which is ultimately the exaltation of all His children. We know this is not accomplished, so the failure has nothing to do with God’s faith or knowledge. It is dependent on our agency. He can only exercise faith (and possess the resultant knowledge) in His own agency, not ours.

Faith as a principle of power (which in perfection is omnipotence) is expressed through works, leading to knowledge (which in perfection is omniscience), as Alma teaches in Alma 32. Knowledge (and therefore omniscience) is in turn the “substrate” of faith (and therefore omnipotence)--Romans 10:17 shows that faith comes from hearing, or the obtaining of knowledge.

The glory of God is intelligence, or light and truth (D&C 93:36), or knowledge (D& 93:24). From Abraham 3:19, God is more intelligent (in possession of the light of truth, or knowledge) than all. His glory (a function of knowledge) and His work (a function of faith) is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). This is another description of how God Himself experiences the interplay between faith and knowledge.

I like the example of the open door to the future, as it acknowledges that something (one thing) exists independently of God, the knowledge of who will be exalted (for the reasons I’ve been explaining). In addition, you use it as something outside the operation of either faith or knowledge, taking a different tack than I did to demonstrate the same conclusion. Regarding omniscience, this example can be used to show that God knows all that He has a right to know (which is more than all His children combined), which excludes that one point of knowing who will be exalted before they are.

I’ve done my best not to be esoteric or metaphysical, but I guess that’s the nature of describing spiritual things!

[Tepui]

The word "if" in the above states to me that God doesn't know which decisions we will make. If the Lord truly did already know exactly every decision we will make than it can be said that it is already written in stone on who we will become. If this is true then you and I should feel justified in the sins we commit because there was no way we could have avoided that which was already written of which we had no power to change. Life and decision making isn't just an illusion of which w ehave no control over. It comes down to this- does God make decisions? If he does then he cannot know everything. But, if he already does know everything then he can make no decision as he would only follow that which was already written and directed in stone.

I'm skipping over a "host" of comments-my apologies. But again the scriptures provide examples. In the Words of Mormon, the Prophet Mormon wrote:

I shall take these plates....and put them with the remainder of my record...And I do this for a

a

wise

b

purpose

; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord

c

knoweth

all things which are to come; wherefore, he

d

worketh

in me to do according to his

e

will

.

It's obvious why. To replace the translation of the Large Plates by Martin Harris losing it. If the Lord instructed Nephi in 600~ B.C. to make the smaller plates, instructed Mormon in 400~ A.D. to place them with his record, to avoid the problem of losing the translation in 1820s, that's pretty good evidence the Lord knew and knows all the things.

Again: "the Lord ^cknoweth all things which are to come"

If the Lord truly did already know exactly every decision we will make than it can be said that it is already written in stone on who we will become. If this is true then you and I should feel justified in the sins we commit because there was no way we could have avoided that which was already written of which we had no power to change.

But you don't know what God knows on who you will become. You have the agency to decide. But you know what God asks of you to do. So how are you justified in sinning against what you know? That's the definition of sin.

Life and decision making isn't just an illusion of which we have no control over. It comes down to this- does God make decisions? If he does then he cannot know everything. But, if he already does know everything then he can make no decision as he would only follow that which was already written and directed in stone.

Yes, God makes decisions. By knowing everything He can make proper decisions. IF He didn't know everything, then He would make improper decisions, then He wouldn't be God.

Also, since he has all power, no one can prevent him from making the proper decision.

Already written in stone? What? God is the lawgiver.

And since you know right from wrong, because of what has been written in stone by God who knows everything, you too can make the right decision and avoid sinning. Thus you can know your outcome.

The only thing we can't control are the consequences of others decisions that may affect us or our physical limitations. But the atonement of the Lord makes up for that (death of little children, illnesses, war, nutjobs on the freeway, etc.).

Edited March 14, 2012 by Tepui

[Rob Osborn]

I'm skipping over a "host" of comments-my apologies. But again the scriptures provide examples. In the Words of Mormon, the Prophet Mormon wrote:

I shall take these plates....and put them with the remainder of my record...And I do this for a

a

wise

b

purpose

; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord

c

knoweth

all things which are to come; wherefore, he

d

worketh

in me to do according to his

e

will

.

It's obvious why. To replace the translation of the Large Plates by Martin Harris losing it. If the Lord instructed Nephi in 600~ B.C. to make the smaller plates, instructed Mormon in 400~ A.D. to place them with his record, to avoid the problem of losing the translation in 1820s, that's pretty good evidence the Lord knew and knows all the things.

Again: "the Lord ^cknoweth all things which are to come"

But you don't know what God knows on who you will become. You have the agency to decide. But you know what God asks of you to do. So how are you justified in sinning against what you know? That's the definition of sin.

Yes, God makes decisions. By knowing everything He can make proper decisions. IF He didn't know everything, then He would make improper decisions, then He wouldn't be God.

Also, since he has all power, no one can prevent him from making the proper decision.

Already written in stone? What? God is the lawgiver.

And since you know right from wrong, because of what has been written in stone by God who knows everything, you too can make the right decision and avoid sinning. Thus you can know your outcome.

The only thing we can't control are the consequences of others decisions that may affect us or our physical limitations. But the atonement of the Lord makes up for that (death of little children, illnesses, war, nutjobs on the freeway, etc.).

Does God have faith or does he move on faith? If he knows everything, he has no faith.

[Rob Osborn]

The distinction here is that God knows all that "can be known". Because of the element of choice which we each possess, the future can never be set in stone indefinitely. God works like any knowledgeable person would- he has the ability to make the best choice available in planned out manners to ensure his plans do not change. This requires his direct involvement and changes on the fly depending upon our own choices we make. I am sure that some of us- perhaps many of us do not obey everything God commands us to do when he commands us to do it which is God's will.

[Jeff K.]

Knowing something isn't necessarily physical evidence.