Does God Know Who Will Be Exalted?

[thesometimesaint]

Zerinus:

I don't know the full implications of Eternal Progression. When we become Gods(sometime in the far distant future) will that mean that there is nothing left to learn, new thing to do, feel, experience? When you have read every book, parchment, clay tablet; heard every prayer, every thought of all your children, repeated endlessly, if that is the case it sounds rather boring, mundane, and ultimately useless.

So I don't know what the answer is to your question.

[zerinus]

Zerinus:

I don't know the full implications of Eternal Progression.

* * *

So I don't know what the answer is to your question.

Well I can only speak for myself. I cannot speak for other people. But I can't accept a doctrine which has no definition or meaning, and is nothing more than an empty word. If you or anybody else cannot tell me what eternal progression is, and it has no basis in scripture, then I would be unwise to accept it as doctrine, and so would you. God "giveth light unto the understanding; . . ." (2 Nephi 31:3). If something is incomprehensible and devoid of all meaning, then it is not truth and not of God. "For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, . . ." (D&C 84:45); and "whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, . . ." (Alma 32:35). In the early days of the Church the Lord condemned the early Saints for accepting things which they could not understand and did not edify, and took them to be of God (D&C 50:13-15). How can one accept a doctrine which is by your own admission meaningless and indefinable, and has no basis in God's word? If God is progressing, how is He progressing? Is He getting wiser? Is He getting smarter? Is He getting richer? Is He making more money? Is He getting more handsome? Is He becoming kinder, more loving? How is He progressing?

When we become Gods(sometime in the far distant future) will that mean that there is nothing left to learn, new thing to do, feel, experience? When you have read every book, parchment, clay tablet; heard every prayer, every thought of all your children, repeated endlessly, if that is the case it sounds rather boring, mundane, and ultimately useless.

What makes you happy in the world is not necessarily the same as what makes God happy in His world. The scriptures teach that God has "fullness of joy". The only kind of sorrow that God (and other saved beings) experience is "for the sins of the world". (see 3 Nephi 28:8-10.)

Edited March 10, 2012 by zerinus

[ERayR]

A knowledgeable observer does not have an impact on the observed. The choices remain yours, regardless of what someone else knows.

I am not comfortable with the doctrine of "God isn't really sure". It begs what else He isn't sure of. Our life here is for our experiences which can only come about when we make decisions.

God is sure of the consequences of any given action. Tell him what action you are going to take and he can tell you precisely what the end result will be. So make up you mind, what are you going to do?

[ERayR]

Zerinus:

I don't know the full implications of Eternal Progression. When we become Gods(sometime in the far distant future) will that mean that there is nothing left to learn, new thing to do, feel, experience? When you have read every book, parchment, clay tablet; heard every prayer, every thought of all your children, repeated endlessly, if that is the case it sounds rather boring, mundane, and ultimately useless.

So I don't know what the answer is to your question.

I don't know. Moving planets and galaxies around can probably become pretty dicey at times.

[CV75]

I see two problems here: 1. The highlighted passages seems to contradict what you said in the first paragraph, and in your earlier post, of God "divesting Himself" of the knowledge. "Divest" implies that He did know, but afterwards chose not to know. The highlighted passages suggest that He cannot know--any time--until it happens. It is either one or the other; it can't be both. 2. I have a basic problem with God "divesting" Himself of anything as a consequence of giving us our agency--implying that without it, we could not have agency. I don't see the need for it, and I don't see a theological justification for it.

Here’s another way of looking at it: When the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord, the Lord explained “thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood.” Through the eyes of faith, Jared saw the truth, that the Lord would come in the flesh, but he did not know because he did not live to actually witness the Lord realizing His mortal sojourn upon the earth. He saw with faith, but did not have a perfect knowledge.

It is my understanding that God operates by faith, for example, in the creation of the world. For example, Elder Scott said in October 2010 that faith “is a foundation building block of creation. I am confident that the Savior Jesus Christ uses faith in His capacity to act under the direction of Father in Heaven. The Master used it to create the most remote galaxies…” Faith is an attribute of as much as knowledge is, but faith is not knowledge and knowledge is not faith. God’s omniscience is a function of His perfect faith, and vice-versa.

Agency can be viewed as a stewardship given in faith, the accounting of which is assessed later once the results are reported as knowledge. The larger the stewardship becomes, the more intimate the conditions for reporting.

Remember I am limiting my part in this discussion to God’s relationship to the knowledge contained within our agency with regards to whether He knows who will be exalted ahead of time, a very specific point.

If “divest” implies that He did know, but afterwards chose not to know, it is because He gave it away, to us, when He gave us our agency. Not a small sacrifice, but He can do it because He is God and omnipotent. He is not giving His glory to another, but giving agency (as in He that loseth His life for His sake shall find it).

It goes without saying that the only way we could have moral agency is if God gave it to us in the first place. In doing so, He gives something He has to us, thus the need for us to receive it from Him. As explained, if He gives us our agency, He also gives us the accompanying knowledge of its maximal expression (which we have to realize, discover and reveal as part of our stewardship), and “waits” just as He waits in creating things. This transaction does not diminish Him; it increases His grandeur.

The theological justification for man receiving his agency from God is provided in the scriptural references, as have the justification for the stewardship of knowledge through agency.

The highlighted passages do affirm that “He cannot know—at any time--until it happens,” again on this very key point of knowing who is exalted.

I think the bottom line must be, as long as God uses faith in His personal operation, there must be a point where His knowledge is held at abeyance (I prefer to use “divested” for the reason described above), and this would be reserved only for the most important and sacred of events, an individual’s exaltation. Also, where knowledge is so intrinsically entwined with agency, it is not a matter of needing to be so much as it simply is that God gives both together and no longer possesses them until they are returned, once way or another.

Edited March 11, 2012 by CV75

[CV75]

not sure what happened here

Edited March 11, 2012 by CV75

[CV75]

He does more than that. He sees things as they will be, Not as they "are to be". He knows the end from the beginning as it will be.

So God can "see" the future, and even show it to someone else, but doesn't "know" it? How does that make sense? Sorry, I am not going to buy that.

Plesae see the explanation in my post #55. And of course He sees things as they will be, under every and any possible condition (the actual realization is our choice). In some cases He even sees things as they shall be.

[CV75]

Sorry, I am not going to buy that.

I'm not trying to convince you one way or anither; this is a discussion. What I am trying to do is answer your questions, assuming you want to understand. I understand your points, and I understand mine.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 10 March 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

A knowledgeable observer does not have an impact on the observed. The choices remain yours, regardless of what someone else knows.

I am not comfortable with the doctrine of "God isn't really sure". It begs what else He isn't sure of. Our life here is for our experiences which can only come about when we make decisions.

God is sure of the consequences of any given action. Tell him what action you are going to take and he can tell you precisely what the end result will be. So make up you mind, what are you going to do?

Then you agree with me. Not only is Heavenly Father sure of the immediate consequences of any action, but he knows the periphery consequences and how it will affect the decisions of all His children everywhere. Heavenly Father is not a really really good guesser. We need the experience to fill the niche of who we are. It is one reason that I ask Heavenly Father what action He would like me to take, since it is for the best in the long run.

[Lightbearer]

In the Book of Abraham we learn that God and the Saviour will "prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whcih the Lord their God shall command them" (paraphrase) and also from Abraham we know that the Lord knows all things from the beginning, so, do you think the Lord knows who will be exalted? why would he say he wants to see who will do what if he knows the end of things?

Yes, God does know the end from the beginning. Therefore He does know who will be exalted. This is a question of God's foreknowledge, not of predestination. God does not predetermine our fates, yet He does know it! If not so, then we could not have prophets or seers. In fact the Book of Mormon gives an interesting definition of a Seer:

Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God. And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet. And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God. But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known. Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings."

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 8:13-18)

Now how could God give a Seer such power, if He did not possess the power to see the future. I realize that it is hard for us to realize how this is possible. Yet the scriptures testify of this rather plainly:

"But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 9:6)

Again the following:

"O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it." (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:20)

Another here:

"And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will." (Book of Mormon | Words of Mormon 1:7)

The Doctrine and Covenants gives more light on this matter:

"THUS saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;" (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 38:1-2)

How are they present before His eyes? The following may help:

"The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;" (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:6-10)

I do not pretend to understand how these things might be, but I do know that these things are true. I do not know if God can see all possible outcomes according to our choices, or if He sees those choices and can see the future how we can see the past, but I know that He knows it. He is omniscient, but we can see only what He allows us to see. He will not destroy our agency by showing us what choices we will make... our freedom is of such great importance to Him, that He will not force us to follow Him. But if God could not see the future, then would not prophecy be meaningless to us? If we could not depend on His promises then faith would be impossible because faith is supposed to be a hope for things which are not seen which are true. If God does not know all truth then who does? So returning to the OP, I think the passage in Abraham had reference to our proving to ourselves rather than proving to God, if we would keep His commandments and thus be exalted. God could see it even then, what we could and even would do. We are only fulfilling that which God already knows. At least that is the way I see it.

[Log]

The generic question at issue in this thread is "Does God have infallible foreknowledge of the future?" The scriptures do not say that He does; quite the opposite, in fact, as serious research into this question should have already revealed to the sincere seeker of knowledge. Google is your friend.

Brigham Young taught explicitly that God was, in fact, progressing in knowledge, and always would be, and this view is consistent with the Scriptures. How can this be? Simply: mankind has libertarian free will.

What, then, can God possibly be learning? About you and the decisions you make in various conditions, trials, and temptations.

[thesometimesaint]

Zerinus:

That isn't what I said. I said I don't know. I was throwing out just a possibility bases soley on my lack of knowledge. I expect that I will at some point in the future to know the answer.

See Treks' "Q"

Q is a fictional character who appears in the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Voyager, as well as in related products. In all of these programs, he is played by John de Lancie. The name "Q" also applies to all other individuals of the Q Continuum.

Q is said to be omnipotent, and is continually evasive regarding his motivations. His home, the Q Continuum, is accessible to the Q and their guests, and the true nature of it is said to be beyond the comprehension of "lesser beings" such as humans so it is only shown to humans in ways they can understand

[CV75]

The generic question at issue in this thread is "Does God have infallible foreknowledge of the future?" The scriptures do not say that He does; quite the opposite, in fact, as serious research into this question should have already revealed to the sincere seeker of knowledge. Google is your friend.

Brigham Young taught explicitly that God was, in fact, progressing in knowledge, and always would be, and this view is consistent with the Scriptures. How can this be? Simply: mankind has libertarian free will.

What, then, can God possibly be learning? About you and the decisions you make in various conditions, trials, and temptations.

I would only fine-tune this to say that the issue is specific to foreknowledge of who will be exalted.

God owns everything; everything He gives us He still possesses (the earth, everything in it, our very bodies, and everything we know). The one exception is with regards to exaltation. Agency is His very life; without it He would not exist (D&C, Book of Mormon). So when He gives His children agency, it is like exhaling, and when we return it to Him, it is like inhaling—He cannot do both at once or simultaneously. I believe this is why some of the uses of the word “breathing” and “breath” have more to with agency as well as with granting mortal or resurrected life, or with other workings of “spirit.”

I understand that the nature of agency entails a “fundamental principle” or particle of knowledge that He gave away, that is entirely our own and upon which our own exaltation, as His, is dependent. This is why He does not know who will be exalted before or until they are. But He certainly knows "all things" necessary to be God.

[Jeff K.]

I would simply have to disagree. The view seems to suggest that "God knows all....OK, not really knows all, but pretty much knows all". I find such equivocation disturbing because it undermines faith in the sense that faith relies upon the knowledge of truth which itself is defined as a knowledge of what was, what is and what will be. Now if Heavenly Father does not hold truth as one of His attributes, how are we supposed to have faith?

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

We are to live by faith until it becomes a sure knowledge. I believe God knows enough that I don't have to worry about my salvation. What I don't know is his absolute knowledge of everything. Hopefully someday I will know.

[Jeff K.]

Faith though is the knowledge of things that are true but not seen. Truth is the fulcrum, its term is by its nature absolutist, a knowledge of what was, is and will be. If God has truth, then our faith is in the right place, if he doesn't?

[Log]

I suggest reading this: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=8&num=2&id=226. If it's TL/DR to you, run a search for "omniscience".

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

We all have things we have faith in, but don't see. I have faith that electrons are real. though it is highly unlike that I will ever see one, at least in this life. I am quite content to let electrons do their thing as I go about my life. I am quite content to let God do his thing, and have hope(faith) that someday I'll know the answers to all my questions.

When my kids were little I had all knowlledge, at least to them. Then they got to be teenagers. Now that they are parents in their own right it is amazing how smart their dad became. I certainly didn't/don't know everything. But I knew enough to raise 3 good adults. Maybe it is the same with God?

[Jeff K.]

I just don't think God uses chance. In an eternal universe, all chance realizes itself. As god knows more, is our free agency diminished? I do not agree with the supposition, anymore than as I know more, my child's agency is diminished.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

It wasn't chance that I knew that each of my children would at some point touch the hot stove. My knowledge still allowed them their Agency to touch it.

[Jeff K.]

I agree, so your knowing did not affect their agency. If you knew they would touch it, then does the "when" matter?

[thesometimesaint]

Yes and no. I expect a small child to deliberately, through not knowing, tough a hot stove. An adult not so much. I expect an adult to know that a hot stove is hot. Even the best chefs in the world occassional touch one. But I wouldn't say it is knowingly deliberate, just one of the hazzards of the occupation.

As with most of us there comes a point at which we can/do know as much or more than our parents(on some subjects). IE; My dad was a good man, but I know more than he did, in his life, about Social Work. There is no question that God knows a heck of a lot more than we do about everything, but will that forever be the case? If Eternal Progress really is Eternal will there come a point where we know as much as God in the relative sense or in the absolute sense?

[Jeff K.]

It depends upon how progression is defined

[zerinus]

Here’s another way of looking at it: When the brother of Jared saw the finger of the Lord, the Lord explained “thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood.” Through the eyes of faith, Jared saw the truth, that the Lord would come in the flesh, but he did not know because he did not live to actually witness the Lord realizing His mortal sojourn upon the earth. He saw with faith, but did not have a perfect knowledge.

That is not quite the kind of “seeing” that I was referring to. Jesus did not “show” the brother of Jared (at that point) the reality of His incarnation. I was more referring to this kind of showing, or seeing:

1 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?

24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.

26 And the angel said unto me again: Look and behold the condescension of God!

27 And I looked and beheld the Redeemer of the world, of whom my father had spoken; and I also beheld the prophet who should prepare the way before him. And the Lamb of God went forth and was baptized of him; and after he was baptized, I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove.

28 And I beheld that he went forth ministering unto the people, in power and great glory; and the multitudes were gathered together to hear him; and I beheld that they cast him out from among them.

29 And I also beheld twelve others following him. And it came to pass that they were carried away in the Spirit from before my face, and I saw them not.

31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.

32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

And this kind:

Moses 7:

43 Wherefore Enoch saw that Noah built an ark; and that the Lord smiled upon it, and held it in his own hand; but upon the residue of the wicked the floods came and swallowed them up.

44 And as Enoch saw this, he had bitterness of soul, and wept over his brethren, and said unto the heavens: I will refuse to be comforted; but the Lord said unto Enoch: Lift up your heart, and be glad; and look.

45 And it came to pass that Enoch looked; and from Noah, he beheld all the families of the earth; and he cried unto the Lord, saying: When shall the day of the Lord come? When shall the blood of the Righteous be shed, that all they that mourn may be sanctified and have eternal life?

46 And the Lord said: It shall be in the meridian of time, in the days of wickedness and vengeance.

47 And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me.

My argument was that for God to be able to show the future to someone with such detail, then He must be able to see it (Himself) in such (or greater) detail; and that kind of “seeing” is equivalent to (if not greater than) knowing. For God to be able to see the future with such detail and precision, the future must be a kind of reality for Him. You seemed to be arguing that “knowing” implies somehow a higher state of awareness or consciousness than “seeing,” and I still cannot understand how you come to that conclusion. For me if God can “see” all of that in the future, then He “knows” it. That was my point. But you seem to be saying something different, which I don’t understand.

It is my understanding that God operates by faith, for example, in the creation of the world. For example, Elder Scott said in October 2010 that faith “is a foundation building block of creation. I am confident that the Savior Jesus Christ uses faith in His capacity to act under the direction of Father in Heaven. The Master used it to create the most remote galaxies…” Faith is an attribute of as much as knowledge is, but faith is not knowledge and knowledge is not faith. God’s omniscience is a function of His perfect faith, and vice-versa.

According to what Joseph Smith teaches in the Lectures on Faith, God’s “faith” resides in Himself, and everybody else’s faith resides in Him for salvation. Thus God is the only being who is able to exercise faith in Himself; and that faith is a function of His omniscience and omnipotence:

Lecturer 2:

2 We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift, and every good principle dwells; and that he is the Father of lights: In him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation.

* * *

Question. Is there a being who has faith in himself independently?

Answer. There is.

Q. Who is it?

A. It is God.

Q. How do you prove that God has faith in himself independently?

A. Because he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fulness dwells. Eph. 1:23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Col. 1:19. For it pleased the Father, that in him should all fulness dwell. (2:12.)

I am not sure if it works the other way—i.e. that His omnipotence is the function of His faith. God had to be, or become omnipotent before He could exercise that faith. Therefore His faith is the product of His omnipotence, not His omnipotence the product of His faith (in Himself).

Agency can be viewed as a stewardship given in faith, the accounting of which is assessed later once the results are reported as knowledge. The larger the stewardship becomes, the more intimate the conditions for reporting.

Remember I am limiting my part in this discussion to God’s relationship to the knowledge contained within our agency with regards to whether He knows who will be exalted ahead of time, a very specific point.

If “divest” implies that He did know, but afterwards chose not to know, it is because He gave it away, to us, when He gave us our agency. Not a small sacrifice, but He can do it because He is God and omnipotent. He is not giving His glory to another, but giving agency (as in He that loseth His life for His sake shall find it).

It seems to me that you are basing your argument on certain assumptions which you take for granted, but which are not proven or demonstrated, and therefore are questionable. What do you mean by “knowledge contained within our agency?” I am not aware that agency “contains” any “knowledge”. You seem to be arguing that our agency is a “package” which originally belonged to God, and God gave it to us; and since that package “contained” a “knowledge” of our eventual exaltation, therefore God must have deprived Himself of that “knowledge”. From my point of view this is all very questionable. Where did you get all of this? What is the source of this information? I am not aware that this information can be derived from what God has revealed; and I do not see a logical basis for it either.

It goes without saying that the only way we could have moral agency is if God gave it to us in the first place. In doing so, He gives something He has to us, thus the need for us to receive it from Him. As explained, if He gives us our agency, He also gives us the accompanying knowledge of its maximal expression (which we have to realize, discover and reveal as part of our stewardship), and “waits” just as He waits in creating things. This transaction does not diminish Him; it increases His grandeur.

The theological justification for man receiving his agency from God is provided in the scriptural references, as have the justification for the stewardship of knowledge through agency.

I accept the scriptural teaching that God gave us our agency. But whether that leads to the conclusions you are drawing from it is not so clear.

The highlighted passages do affirm that “He cannot know—at any time--until it happens,” again on this very key point of knowing who is exalted.

I think the bottom line must be, as long as God uses faith in His personal operation, there must be a point where His knowledge is held at abeyance (I prefer to use “divested” for the reason described above), and this would be reserved only for the most important and sacred of events, an individual’s exaltation.

You seem to be redefining words in subtle ways as you go along! The doctrine that God performs His creative acts by exercising the power of faith that He has in Himself (i.e. in His own omnipotence and omniscience) does not warrant drawing that conclusion. Exercising faith does not translate into being uncertain of the outcome—especially in relation to God.

Also, where knowledge is so intrinsically entwined with agency, it is not a matter of needing to be so much as it simply is that God gives both together and no longer possesses them until they are returned, once way or another.

As I said, your argument is based on too many unproven assumptions. What you basically seem to be saying is that it is impossible for us to have agency if God at the same time is able to know what the outcome of our exercise of that agency will be. That appears to be your basic assumption as far as I can tell. If I am wrong then please correct me. And that assumption seems to me to be unjustified. I believe it is possible for God to be aware of the outcome of the exercise of our agency without depriving us of that agency. In the case of God, “knowing” the future is just a matter of seeing it. He doesn’t stop seeing it just because He has given us our agency. Let me illustrate with an example. If what you say is true of us and our God-given agency, then it would also have to be true of Jesus, because He was in the same situation as us as far as the exercise of His God-given agency was concerned, and therefore God the Father did not know that Jesus would complete the course and perfect the Atonement, thus achieve His exaltation (and with it ours). That would be the logical conclusion of your argument. But we know that God did know. It has been the matter of a great amount of prophecy and visions and revelations that Jesus would complete the Atonement, and bring about the salvation of man. Enoch saw it. Nephi saw it. Abraham saw it. All the prophets had seen it. Indeed, Jesus has been called “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. All the saints and righteous men that lived before Jesus came were saved through faith in His atoning blood (as amply testified of in the Book of Mormon). So there was no question of God "knowing" that Jesus would be exalted. What is the difference between His exaltation and ours, that God knew about His successful mission and exaltation, but He cannot know of ours? As far as I can tell, God’s ability to see into the future (including our exaltation) is not an infringement of our agency. That seems to be your central argument, and I don’t find it convincing.

Edited March 12, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Plesae see the explanation in my post #55. And of course He sees things as they will be, under every and any possible condition (the actual realization is our choice). In some cases He even sees things as they shall be.

I use the words "will be" and "shall be" to mean the same; and in "all cases" God is able to see what will be and shall be.