Conversation With Roommate...

[Stormy Waters]

My roommate said that his problem with the church is that if you want to believe something, you WILL look for ways to justify that belief. You'll convince yourself (he said partly with brain chemistry and human emotion) that something is true even if there is no basis for it. Here's my problem with that...the whole time he wanted so desperatly to believe--why couldn't he convince himself using the same process?? What changed? If his desire was to believe, why couldn't he overlook the same problems I see? Why couldn't or wouldn't his emotions and brain chemistry convince him and make him happy? What's the difference between me and him? He didn't have a response for it, only saying that he was able to view church history objectively.

As someone who has lost their faith, I'd like to answer this question. Why can't I convince myself that the Mormon church is true? If you believe that the mind is susceptible to delusion, you can longer trust yourself to take claims about God on faith. Consider the members of other faiths who are just as sincerely convinced their religion is true as members of LDS church, and yet for Mormonism to be true, all of them have to be wrong. Their feelings of inner conviction have led them astray. They have faith in claims that are false, but they are sincerely convinced they are true. The Mormon church is a minority, so as a Mormon you have to believe that a good deal of people have come to the wrong conclusion about God. So if all of these people are wrong about God, maybe you could be too. Maybe taking things on faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth.

[Grundelwalken]

As someone who has lost their faith, I'd like to answer this question. Why can't I convince myself that the Mormon church is true? If you believe that the mind is susceptible to delusion, you can longer trust yourself to take claims about God on faith. Consider the members of other faiths who are just as sincerely convinced their religion is true as members of LDS church, and yet for Mormonism to be true, all of them have to be wrong. Their feelings of inner conviction have led them astray. They have faith in claims that are false, but they are sincerely convinced they are true. The Mormon church is a minority, so as a Mormon you have to believe that a good deal of people have come to the wrong conclusion about God. So if all of these people are wrong about God, maybe you could be too. Maybe taking things on faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth.

Actually taking things on faith is the only way to really find truth. Only after exercising faith can God confirm truth.

[mfbukowski]

Wouldn't $10M give you the desire to believe the moon is made of Swiss cheese?

No, but I could probably fake it for that kind of money....

[Thinking]

Belief isn't a choice; the desire to believe is a choice.

[Thinking]

I am like Verum. The last thing that I wanted was to find out that the LDS Church isn't God's church. However, I couldn't ignore certain things and I suppose you could say that I studied my way out of the church. My mother thought I was going to turn into the stereotypical apostate: drugs, sex, and rock & roll. Well I do have sex (with my wife) and there are times when I'm in the mood for some good classic rock. And the drugs? I take glucosamine chondroitin for my left knee, ibuprofen for my junior migraines, and fish oil caplets for the omega 3.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Thinking

[beckstcw]

Grundelwalken: Why do you think faith is the only way to access truth?

[Stormy Waters]

Actually taking things on faith is the only way to really find truth. Only after exercising faith can God confirm truth.

Yet this faith process leads many to false conclusions. They are convinced of their religious beliefs, but not everyone can be right.

[peacefulleeman]

As someone who has lost their faith, I'd like to answer this question. Why can't I convince myself that the Mormon church is true? If you believe that the mind is susceptible to delusion, you can longer trust yourself to take claims about God on faith. Consider the members of other faiths who are just as sincerely convinced their religion is true as members of LDS church, and yet for Mormonism to be true, all of them have to be wrong. Their feelings of inner conviction have led them astray. They have faith in claims that are false, but they are sincerely convinced they are true. The Mormon church is a minority, so as a Mormon you have to believe that a good deal of people have come to the wrong conclusion about God. So if all of these people are wrong about God, maybe you could be too. Maybe taking things on faith isn't a reliable pathway to truth.

1. People believing other religions or ideas are true is not a problem, because those religions and ideas do contain truth. Since people are human, they are subject to being wrong however to some degree. Some are simply more wrong than others and others are more right than others or are right.

2. It is not "Faith" that is the problem, you are speaking blind faith. Very few peoples faith is "blind". People don't simply believe because they want to, they always have some kind of "evidence" for belief. People study, people observe, people see good and evil, etc.

Faith is an absolutely reliable way to truth, but since people are human beings from different backgrounds, different judgment skills, having different access of information, we all are subject to fallibility. Being subject to fallibility doesn't mean the "process" is flawed, it means being human we are flawed. Faith is absolutely key to continued growth and learning. I wouldn't be a longtime and forever mormon now if I hadn't put away my anti-mormon anti-religion judgments and had faith in the process to continue learning. Only when I had faith did the miracle come, just as we are told. It seemed impossible to know for sure, it seemed like there was too much to weed through, but trusting in the "process" is the key.

[peacefulleeman]

Yet this faith process leads many to false conclusions. They are convinced of their religious beliefs, but not everyone can be right.

That's because we are human beings. Yes, not everyone is right about some or many things, but that doesn't make the process flawed, that makes "us" flawed. The process is what makes us smarter, wiser, learned, etc. That's the purpose of life, is to go forward according to the nature of our creation. The fact that some go in wrong directions doesn't change what our/your purpose is. Don't be one of those that go in wrong directions then. Be smarter, wiser, etc.

You're not the first to "give up" and be the atheist simply because everyone else thinks they have the truth going through the process we all go through. What you need to know is that it's "okay" that we are flawed. That's the purpose of the challenge, is to learn identify and overcome those flaws. You are an individual. Just because there are masses out there who are wrong in one way or another doesn't mean the process is "pointless". God will sort it all out in the end. But YOU, you are accountable to yourself. If you are going to cop-out and say "why bother", that there is no worth in the process, then it is YOU who lose as well as those around you and your generations.

As long as we continue to seek, do, and know what is right and good according to the best of our ability, then it's all good. It doesn't matter what someone else does or believes, we are accountable only to ourselves. But your believing the way you currently are, I testify to you that you are shortchanging yourself. You may not believe or see it now, but I can tell you from being there you are. It's one thing to believe we are right, it's another to stop learning or to learn with a cup already full.

[Stormy Waters]

That's because we are human beings. Yes, not everyone is right about some or many things, but that doesn't make the process flawed, that makes "us" flawed. The process is what makes us smarter, wiser, learned, etc. That's the purpose of life, is to go forward according to the nature of our creation. The fact that some go in wrong directions doesn't change what our/your purpose is. Don't be one of those that go in wrong directions then. Be smarter, wiser, etc.

You're not the first to "give up" and be the atheist simply because everyone else thinks they have the truth going through the process we all go through. What you need to know is that it's "okay" that we are flawed. That's the purpose of the challenge, is to learn identify and overcome those flaws. You are an individual. Just because there are masses out there who are wrong in one way or another doesn't mean the process is "pointless". God will sort it all out in the end. But YOU, you are accountable to yourself. If you are going to cop-out and say "why bother", that there is no worth in the process, then it is YOU who lose as well as those around you and your generations.

I think you are making this judgement based on the assumption that the process is valid. How do you know the feelings of conviction come from God and are not byproducts of your own desire to believe? I submit that these feelings of conviction are not valid pathway to truth because people have absolute conviction in things that are false. If there is a God, he should give us a clear and reliable method to learn the the truth about him.

[Stargazer]

... But try this one. Try believing the moon is made of Swiss Cheese. Think of a situation where you have every incentive to believe. Someone will give you $10M if you can pass a lie detector test and truthfully say you believe the moon is made of Swiss Cheese. Could you do it? Is belief a choice?

I could not believe it. I might be able to act sufficiently well to fool a lie detector (those things are over-rated anyway), but it would take a lot of practice and self-discipline.

As to my belief in God and the Church, it is wholly unconstrained. I knew God existed and that He created the universe long before I ever found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I was not a "churched" person before then, either. The most religious "indoctrination" I ever received was the year after my mother died when I was 7 years old, when I lived with my 81-year-old Great Grandmother Rose. She used to occasionally read to me out the Bible, and sent me to her local church from time to time (she couldn't go because of mobility problems), but never preached at all. My Dad was an agnostic and when the subject came up he spoke of God only theoretically he told me that he "hoped" God existed and that there was an afterlife. He lived an honorable life and was a good man. Later, my stepmother took me to a General Baptist meeting two or three times a year, but it was totally unappealing to me.

I found the LDS Church through a quite miraculous intervention by the Spirit. It doesn't mean a lot to others, but I know who I am and what I was at age 14, and without spiritual intervention I would not at that time have taken the steps to join the Church.

[mfbukowski]

Yet this faith process leads many to false conclusions. They are convinced of their religious beliefs, but not everyone can be right.

Right about what? About what we take on faith? Faith is not supposed to yield scientific knowledge. Why do some people think it IS supposed to?

What makes one person's life meaningful may not make another's life meaningful. Why should it?

We will only know who was right after we seek God face to face when the veil is lifted. THAT is when faith will or will not become "objective evidence".

[mfbukowski]

I think you are making this judgement based on the assumption that the process is valid. How do you know the feelings of conviction come from God and are not byproducts of your own desire to believe?

I think you are confused.

They precisely ARE generated by the desire to believe. They are supposed to be. That is why we call if FAITH- remember from your primary days?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

Ring a bell??

I submit that these feelings of conviction are not valid pathway to truth because people have absolute conviction in things that are false. If there is a God, he should give us a clear and reliable method to learn the the truth about him.

LOL - a valid pathway to truth about nuclear physics? No, then I agree with you. A valid pathway to learning about God, and other matters of faith? THE ONLY PATHWAY!

[mfbukowski]

Spiritual experiences are "evidence" of things NOT seen and what allows us to take action on things not seen, and live our lives AS IF they were in fact "seen" because they were experienced or "seen" in our hearts.

Why is that so hard to understand??

Spiritual experiences are not supposed to give scientific data. How would anybody think they ARE supposed to do so?

But we can be absolutely certain that we have had the spiritual experience, as certain as that we have a pain in our knee. How we interpret it - how we integrate that into our world view- is what makes all the difference.

[zerinus]

It is not true that belief in not a choice. An element of choice is involved in belief. People are held accountable for what they believe, otherwise they could not be condemned for their unbelief. Jesus in the NT repeatedly condemns those who did not believe in Him for their unbelief:

Matthew 21:

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mark 1:

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Mark 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 1:

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 3:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words

John 6:

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 8:

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me

John 10:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 11:

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this

John 12:

36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him

44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 16:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

If people had absolutely no choice in the matter, why all of these condemnations?

Edited February 25, 2012 by zerinus

[rodheadlee]

OK, whatever. You have super high morality with your beliefs or whatever. But what about your average Joe on the street. Could you entice very many people to believe the moon is made of Swiss Cheese with $10M? $100M?

No, it would just give me the desire for 10M$. I'd still know the truth.

[rpn]

His approach is the classic impatience of instant gratification. Did he really think that the Lord was going to fully trust that he was serious after all of his knowledge and then three years partying violating all of his covenants, after one year. You don't get back everything you gave up until you've proven your change of heart. It isn't the Holy Ghost or God who has to do the work. And receiving forgiveness from the Church is not always on the same timing as receiving forgiveness from God. But even when you are forgiven of the Lord, that doesn't mean you have healed all of the consequences of the apostasy. Until you have demonstrated over a significant period of time that your change of heart is really a complete change of heart, until the sinner has once again demonstrated his trustworthiness before the Lord and that he is going to stick with it. Until the sinner wants it badly enough to keep doing it for as long as it takes to get back the spiritual feelings that aren't yet there.

Edited February 26, 2012 by rpn

[peacefulleeman]

I think you are making this judgement based on the assumption that the process is valid.

I don't make any "assumptions", I've validated everything I say by the scientific method.

Like I mentioned, your not the first person to have such judgments. I've since learned more however of the issue.

How do you know the feelings of conviction come from God and are not byproducts of your own desire to believe?

My "feelings" have nothing to do with the matter. My judgments are based on the evidence and facts alone. Again, I'm well beyond the feelings of belief in verifying what is truth and fact. Like I've said, I had no desire to believe, I had only a desire for what was true and right. I've been you my friend. Thus you're not saying anything that I didn't once also believe when I left the Church and religion.

I submit that these feelings of conviction are not valid pathway to truth because people have absolute conviction in things that are false.

"Feelings" are only part of the process, they are not the process. The process is by Study and by Faith. As others mentioned, the evidence of things.

What you don't understand is that simply because there is fallibility in humanity, doesn't mean there are not absolutes, and that those absolutes cannot be known. Every one has believed things that are false at one time or another, and many still do. The "process" is valid, because by Faith the wise continue to learn and grow, growing into a perfect man.

If there is a God, he should give us a clear and reliable method to learn the the truth about him.

First your initial assumption is false. The purpose of this life isn't to simply "know him", it's to grow and progress according to our own ability's coming to know good, truth and right, as well as to be such according to the best of our abilities. Most people who have lived have never known God, let alone known him correctly or perfectly. Even with the Church, with all we know, there is still much we do not know. Guess what that means???

It means it is the "process" that is important.... Did we squander the day of our repentance? How did we use our time in life? Did we seek after truth and right to the best of our ability? It's the process that is important, because there is not such thing as absolute perfection. That's why we needed a Savior, someone who in the end will bridge the gap created by our mortality and humanity.

Remember the basics? Seek learning out of the best books. Seek whatsoever is virtuous, lovely, and of good report. Live by study AND by faith. Choose the right, and let the consequences follow.

You know that when I decided to put away my judgments of religion, that a couple of years later when I was ready to learn again, that as the atheist/agnostic it seemed impossible. But, I decided to trust in the promise. That if I did my part, did an objective, balanced, and patient study, the truth would come, whatever it was, be it no God, no true religion, or otherwise. That choice, caused the miracle to happen. The truth came clearly and quickly. I did have years of past experience to draw upon also, but I started fresh, to make sure of objectivity, that I wasn't in some "box". But because my mind was open and clear, the truth was clear. It was easy to compare LDS scholarship with anti-mormonism side by side on the same subject and see who was telling the whole truth, on and on.

I would have been perfectly happy remaining an atheist/agnostic/spiritualist. I had no "need" for religion, no family pressure, nothing.

My only need was for truth and right. You ask why so many believe some things absolutely when they are false? Well, other than the reasons I've already mentioned in the last two posts, it's most often because people simply aren't as "objective" as they believe. You see it all the time, anti-mormons who have never even met a mormon, let alone attended the Church. I have a brother, we grow up apart. He absolutely refuses to study Mormonism. Because he's read some stuff on the internet, he thinks he knows it all already, as false, and he fully embraces his Evanglicalism as being the way he should go. That's not being objective. Even for his brother he refused to give mormonism even a fair shake. Many don't come to the truth because they already think they know it all, whether it's religion or even an anti-mormon, but especially as an anti-mormon/ex-mormon. Cup is full, and it can't understand or know anything else.

Anyway, some thought.

[Maidservant]

Yet this faith process leads many to false conclusions. They are convinced of their religious beliefs, but not everyone can be right.

I don't think too many Latter-day Saints hold this view on other religions, and definitely not on other human beings themselves who are sincerely believing in their religions. Being a Baptist, for example, isn't a "false conclusion". So you are the one who is seeing it this way, and have rejected that due to your spiritual growth. I also have rejected that concept in my spiritual growth. But one of us is still in the Church and one of us isn't. My point isn't that you made the wrong choice . . . that's between you and your Father in heaven; or just with yourself if there isn't a Father in heaven . . . but my point is that the particular problem you have wrestled with is something that all cognitively mature people wrestle with and shed, in and out of organized religion. We all come to the conclusion that people have a journey in life, and we don't have to be sweeping the snow off their roof when our own doorstep is snowy. So, you've found that out. So have we (people who stay Mormon or religious). Just saying.

The purpose of this life . . . . to grow and progress according to our own ability's coming to know good, truth and right, as well as to be such according to the best of our abilities. Most people who have lived have never known God, let alone known him correctly or perfectly. Even with the Church, with all we know, there is still much we do not know. Guess what that means???

It means it is the "process" that is important....

[Stormy Waters]

I think you are confused.

They precisely ARE generated by the desire to believe.   They are supposed to be.   That is why we call if FAITH- remember from your primary days?

So if these feelings are generated by the desire to believe, how do you know it's because there is a God, and not because our minds are playing tricks on us?

[mfbukowski]

So if these feelings are generated by the desire to believe, how do you know it's because there is a God, and not because our minds are playing tricks on us?

How do you know you're not a brain in a vat?

Or like that movie that's out now- asleep or awake?

Edited February 26, 2012 by mfbukowski

[thesometimesaint]

rouchan:

If I told you I believed the moon was made of Swiss Chesse, would you give me that $10million. The question for you is how could you know if I was telling you what I actually believed or just that I just wanted the money?

[robuchan]

rouchan:

If I told you I believed the moon was made of Swiss Chesse, would you give me that $10million. The question for you is how could you know if I was telling you what I actually believed or just that I just wanted the money?

The premise was that you would be tested by lie detector to see if the statement was truthful "I believe the moon is made of Swiss cheese". Of course this assumes lie detector tests are perfect or there could be some other way to test the truthfulness of the that statement.

[thesometimesaint]

robuchan:

There is no foolproof method of lie detection. Pathological liars, and users of certain drugs pass the tests with flying colors. The best we can do is; If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.