Josh Powell Suicide Murder Of Sons

[selek1]

Are you suggesting we hold off on assuming he was the one who murdered his boys and then committed suicide? I thought that was obvious from the emails he sent out and the fact he took toys and books to the Goodwill the week before, bought accelerant, etc.

No. I parsed the sentence to refer specifically to his guilt or innocence vis-a-vis his wife's disappearance.

If that wasn't clear, I apologize for the confusion.

As regards the murder of his children and his suicide, the evidence is quite a bit more conclusive (in that there actually IS evidence).

I am still forced to agree with Frankenstein (twice in one year!) that the two events (the murders of his boys and his own suicide) are inextricably intertwined- and that we cannot really know what was going through his mind as he made his preparations and carried out the inexcusable act.

I am personally troubled by the manner in which he prepared for the act by giving away his children's toys (Goodwill, IIRC) and such- but coldly methodical preparation does not automatically necessitate that he was sane.

Not knowing Josh Powell's true state of mind as he made those preparations, I cannot pronounce him "guilty" in the classical sense.

All I can do is mourn the senseless tragedy and loss and trust that God will fulfill his word; and offer mercy, compassion, comfort, and redemption alongside inescapable justice .

[Calm]

I have expressed my opinion solely based on his actions with his children. None of my comments relate to his wife and her disappearance.

Just in case anyone is wondering...

I had a lot more compassion for him before I found out he used a hatchet on his kids. I thought the explosion killed them instantly or that was the intent. I was wrong however. Since he likely was premeditating the act, he could have found a less painful and fearful way to ensure the boys' death, even a knife is less frightening and more precise. One has to raise an axe and strike down forcibly nor is it as likely to be 'clean and quick' as others (it is associated more with images of frenzy overkill like Lizzie Borden and her 30 whacks). There is time for the child to see the blow coming and since the children died of carbon monoxide poisoning, time for them to suffer as well.

He was not thinking in the least of his children when he chose to attack them with a hatchet and then burn them.

Such an act is not one of caring or love or not wanting to be parted from them, that act is most likely one of anger and hate. Whether or not he felt that way toward his kids, he acted out his anger and hate on them (assuming my interpretation is right).

We do not know what his internal state of mind was, but he was enough in control of himself and enough able to function that he was able to live on his own, care for himself, get his own needs met, help with his own defense, etc. etc. It is that and his choice of weapons which leads me to believe that this was all about him and not love for the boys. Anyone who could do such a thing must be sick in my view, but that does not mean they are not responsible for their actions, that they could not realize if they had bothered to take the time that such actions would cause unnecessary suffering for their children.

[Avatar4321]

Anyone got data on LDS domestic violence compared to nonLDS?

I find that the other commonality---that they had left the Church---is completely ignored as potentially contributing to the problem.

Well, it would undermine their point.

[Avatar4321]

Duplicate

[Daniel Peterson]

No worries, Ares. It wasn't my intent to require links to external, anti-Mormon sites, per se, but more examples of what Mr. Peterson is claiming. I'd be interested in having him cut and paste or PM me with examples of such. Apparently, he's "not going to spend the time" doing so. I presume my CFR will go unanswered.

Sorry to have irritated you.

I'm attempting -- quite successfully and satisfyingly, at this point -- to spend less time on message boards and that sort of thing. If you want to disbelieve my saying that I've seen such claims, feel free. Nothing hinges on it. I don't care. I haven't kept notes on where I saw them, and I have no intention of trying to find them again.

I was, at the time you demanded that I supply references, trying to finish a major bit of job-related writing and a deadline-due column and to get off to teach a class. These were priorities for me.

[LeSellers]

It [was my intent to get] more examples of what Mr. Peterson is claiming. I'd be interested in having him cut and paste or PM me with examples of such. Apparently, he's "not going to spend the time" doing so. I presume my CFR will go unanswered.

Here's another one:

Mormon JOSH POWELL just blew up himself & his 2 kids during supervised visitation, at The Data Lounge, people']One thing you have to realize is [the Mormon grandparents'] faith does get them through it. They can tell themselves any lie that makes them feel better. In their mind, the two boys are with their mother and she is taking care of them. They probably are not even grief stricken. Their faith IS getting them through it. In their minds, it was the Lord's will. Trust me on this.

by: Anonymous reply 95 02/07/2012 @ 03:53PM

In Mormonism Josh would have had the right to execute his wife if she had committed adultery against him. It would not have been murder. Adultery by the wife requires the spilling of blood or she cannot go to heaven.

by: Anonymous reply 97 02/07/2012 @ 03:56PM

For his or her sake, let's hope the social worker is also a Mormon so he/she can bypass the grief and guilt altogether.

by: Anonymous reply 98 02/07/2012 @ 04:32PM

As far as I'm concerned these kids are dead because of Mormons. Women are not respected in that religion and the husband was not arrested, as he should have been, because the mormon's on the police force thought the wife deserved what she got.

No one will say it but it's the truth.

by: Anonymous reply 128 02/08/2012 @ 07:43PM

Belive me, they have already convinced themselves that this was god's will.

by: Anonymous reply 125 02/07/2012 @ 11:32PM

If the grandparents are Mormons, then they're morons to begin with.

by: Anonymous reply 126 02/07/2012 @ 11:34PM

Hard to tell if "Anonymous" is one person, or many. But the charges are there for all to see.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

It [was my intent to get] more examples of what Mr. Peterson is claiming. I'd be interested in having him cut and paste or PM me with examples of such. Apparently, he's "not going to spend the time" doing so. I presume my CFR will go unanswered.

Here's another one:

I blame the church for demanding that women must marry to be fulfilled...doesn't matter what abusive individual they find...they just have to be married to be acceptable inside the social structure.

Josh Powell was a "great catch"....until he wasn't.

Because of these forceful teachings...a woman and her children are gone....along with the nutter.

The church breeds relationships like this...(just thinking of old Queen Bee Brigham Young and his hive of women.)

It's the culture itself that tells women....education isn't "useful" but marriage and motherhood is.

'Course, "Tessa" conveniently forgets that Brother Brigham said, if required to choose between educating his sons or his daughters, he'd educate his daughters. But that's the way of anti-mormons: they lie, distort, fabricate and exaggerate at every opportunity.

Lehi

[Daniel Peterson]

Unbelievable stuff, don't you think?

[LeSellers]

Unbelievable stuff, don't you think?

Unfortunately, it's all too believable. There are a lot of people out there for whom hatred trumps reality.

Lehi

[KevinG]

We have two theories on the "cant leave it alone" thread.

One is that there are a lot of people who can't leave Mormons in peace.

The other is that there is a small but very dedicated force of anti-mormons who post any time they can.

I'm starting to think there is a small, dedicated force and other malcontents pile on when they see a soft target.

[Daniel2]

Unbelievable stuff, don't you think?

It is, indeed. Wow. Blaming Mormonism for any of Powell's actions towards his kids is totally off-base

This is the first time I've read anything from the "Recovery" boards. Clearly, the individuals quoted here have unresolved emotional issues. Now I I know why I've avoided those boards. :-P Blah.

Thanks again to all those who posted the examples I requested.

Daniel2

[LeSellers]

Thanks again to all those who posted the examples I requested.

You're welcome.

Lehi

[MorningStar]

A court of law is required to presume a person innocent and the only reason Josh wasn't charged was because there was no body found. He had to use the "we were camping" alibi because he knows that young children don't keep secrets very well. I believed he lost control, killed his wife, and the only way he could hide it was to take a drive in a blizzard with his two young children to dispose of the body. You would have to be a lunatic to take a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old camping on a Sunday night in the snow, after midnight, with a long drive on top of that. He claims he lost track of time and didn't know what day it was. So he and Susan both failed to remember the kids had school the next day? And on top of such a bizarre decision, his wife is missing when he gets back? Then he moves away from Utah shortly after that and his family attacks Susan's character, saying she probably ran off with another man, making ridiculous "parallels" to a missing man who disappeared around the same time. His sicko dad tries to make this believable by saying that Susan was very sexual with him! Um, no. All he did was confirm that the family is sick and was later found with videos of girls and oodles of child porn.

I don't know if it's true the kids are just starting to talk about what they saw, but either way, it is obvious to me that Josh killed Susan. He was lucky to avoid being arrested as long as he did.

[frankenstein]

Point of order: in a murder investigation a body is not required for charges to be filed. If Powell was not charged then it is because there is a lack of sufficient evidence for the prosecutor to bring charges. Again a body is not required

[selek1]

MorningStar,

While I hold you in the highest regard, I simply cannot agree with your characterizations or assertions.

In the interests of full-disclosure, I've had precisely the same arguments with my own once-and-future bride, so I'm not exactly coming to the table unprepared or unfamiliar with the circumstances surrounding Susan Powell's disappearance.

A court of law is required to presume a person innocent and the only reason Josh wasn't charged was because there was no body found.

Not actually correct, as Frankenstein has pointed out.

All the DA truly needs to file charges is a reasonable level of evidence. Whether that evidence is sufficient to convince a jury is usually considered- but it is not binding.

The fact that prosecutors refused to file charges is telling- despite the very public declaration by the police that Josh Powell was "the sole person of interest" in the case.

That makes it look like a witch-hunt, rather than a responsible, professional investigation.

The four separate (and utterly useless) fishing expeditions by the West Valley Police- which in every instance assured the breathless media they were "very close" to a breakthrough in the case- doesn't exactly bolster confidence in their either their judgement or their methods.

It comes across as very much a reverse of the O.J. Simpson case.

Simpson (having been acquitted on the flimsiest of grounds) vowed to spend the rest of his life "looking for the real killers" on the golf courses of another state entirely.

The West Valley Police, by contrast, focussed all of their efforts on finding the real killer- by issuing press releases to their gullible accomplices at KSL.

He had to use the "we were camping" alibi because he knows that young children don't keep secrets very well.

That's one interpretation of the evidence. It is not the only reasonable interpretation of that evidence.

It is equally possible that the man was simply an inconsiderate moron (a premise for which there is ample circumstantial evidence). Being a moron, however, does not automagically make him a killer.

I believed he lost control, killed his wife, and the only way he could hide it was to take a drive in a blizzard with his two young children to dispose of the body.

This is a plausible theory. It is, in fact, the theory with which the glory hounds at the West Valley Police justified their actions.

The theory has, in fact, only one fatal shortcoming: the apparently absolute lack of evidence to support it.

You would have to be a lunatic to take a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old camping on a Sunday night in the snow, after midnight, with a long drive on top of that.

I agree.

One would also have to be a lunatic to offer a pawnshop clerk the sexual services of your underage daughter (and your own) so as to not lose your laptop computer.

Unfortunately, being a rotten, neglectful, a/o abusive parent does not automaticlly make you a killer.

He claims he lost track of time and didn't know what day it was. So he and Susan both failed to remember the kids had school the next day? And on top of such a bizarre decision, his wife is missing when he gets back?

No one is arguing that Powell was a good parent or a particularly bright individual.

But it does not make him a killer.

Then he moves away from Utah shortly after that and his family attacks Susan's character, saying she probably ran off with another man, making ridiculous "parallels" to a missing man who disappeared around the same time.

No one is saying that either family- either Powells or the Coxs- handled the matter perfectly.

Both sides, IMO, exploited the tragedy to their own ends.

But that doesn't make Josh Powell a murderer.

And the "he moved away" thing is a particular burr under my saddle.

Assume, just for a moment, that Powell genuinely believed that his wife ran off on him.

He's already had an unpleasant interview with the local klagel sheriff who've made it clear that they think he's guilty of murder (despite the complete lack of evidence).

His in-laws despise and mistrust him- and have all but accused him of murder.

His professional reputation and standing in the community have already been destroyed by the witch-hunt mentality and media mobocracy.

What would induce an otherwise reasonable person to stay in Utah under those circumstances?

Can you offer one good reason why he should have chosen to stay in such an environment?

His sicko dad tries to make this believable by saying that Susan was very sexual with him! Um, no. All he did was confirm that the family is sick and was later found with videos of girls and oodles of child porn.

Having a dysfunctional and creepy family does not make him a murderer. Having child molesters as family members does not make him a child molester, let alone a murderer.

I don't know if it's true the kids are just starting to talk about what they saw, but either way, it is obvious to me that Josh killed Susan.

Like I said earlier- it's a plausible theory.

But you've offered no evidence to back up the assertion.

In my mind, it is eminently possible that the tragic and unnecessary murder of those boys and their father's suicide were the product of an unstable, persecuted mind caused by the very mobocracy and hang-him-we'll-try-him-later mentality echoed (ever so faintly) on this board.

How different might things have been had the media, the gossips, and the armchair quarterbacks assumed that he might actually have been innocent in Susan's disappearance?

[Stargazer]

I'm attempting -- quite successfully and satisfyingly, at this point -- to spend less time on message boards and that sort of thing.

I've not been here as long as you, but I seem to recall about three other times when you claimed to be spending less time on message boards, and apparently the resolution to do so did not survive particularly long.

Not that I am complaining, mind you, since I enjoy your contributions greatly, but you remind me of me in this regard. I don't talk about "cutting back", since it would be obvious that I can't keep myself away.

You probably don't appreciate me comparing you to me favorably in this regard, but as one addict to another: hit me one more time.

[Daniel Peterson]

But, as a matter of fact, my participation on this board has dropped considerably since midsummer. And it stopped altogether at the beginning of August on the other board where I had been posting.

I'm spending far less time, and I'm getting far more done.

Life is good.

[Calm]

I've not been here as long as you, but I seem to recall about three other times when you claimed to be spending less time on message boards, and apparently the resolution to do so did not survive particularly long.

Unfortunately I think each time Dan's made this resolution he has gotten better at keeping it.

[frankenstein]

Does anyone have experience with inactivity in LDS Church leading to divorce? I know that most states have boiler plate language for filing divorce something about irreconcilable differences and the purposes of matrimony. In activity seems a rather shallow excuse to file for divorce.

[ERayR]

Does anyone have experience with inactivity in LDS Church leading to divorce? I know that most states have boiler plate language for filing divorce something about irreconcilable differences and the purposes of matrimony. In activity seems a rather shallow excuse to file for divorce.

I believe there was an earlier thread that covered this quite extensivly. I don't remember but maybe a year back.

[MorningStar]

I think Josh was an inconsiderate moron AND killed his wife. I would have to suspend all logic to believe he didn't kill Susan. Dumb alibi, wet carpet, Susan's purse and phone are at home, and no one ever hears from her again. I'm sure no one would want to stay in that environment if they felt they were being falsely accused, but then you're going to be hated all over the country, everywhere you go. I don't think there is the slightest possibility that pressure from the media and law enforcement would drive a non-killer to kill, especially their own children and in such a terrifying way. To be lured in with a "surprise" and then your dad chops your brother with a hatchet in front of you. That's just evil. It's only getting worse as the story unfolds - Josh having incestuous images on his computer. I'm glad my dearest friend and her family no longer have to worry about living by him and his disgusting father.

[Calm]

I don't think there is the slightest possibility that pressure from the media and law enforcement would drive a non-killer to kill, especially their own children and in such a terrifying way.

It is the level of violence that makes me think he is likely responsible for both. I see it as psychologically unlikely to go from no or very little violence to an extreme form of violence and premeditated as well, not done in a sudden passion, but calculated, planned for as if it was a reasonable solution to his problems.

Having said that, that is all that I will say though...that I think it probable he is his wife's killer based on his own behaviour.

[Kenngo1969]

There is a distinct (and reasonable) possibility that Powell was flat-out of his mind when he took these horrific and inexcusable actions.

I could buy that ... if he hadn't done it the way he did it: "I can't live without my kids. I'm outta here," says he, whereupon he takes a drive, hooks a hose up to the exhaust of his van, leaves it idling for awhile, and that's the end of it. I'd get it if that were the case, but it seems not so. There seems to be a good deal more spite, malice, and premeditation to his actions than there would be if that were the case (including toward the kids). He composes e-mails to not just one, but several, people (who knows how long it took him to do that); he buys gasoline, then spreads it throughout the house; then goes out in a blaze of "glory."

This wasn't just, "I'm outta here."

It wasn't just, "We're outta here."

It wasn't just, "We're outta here, and screw the Coxes."

It was, "We're outta here, and screw not only the Coxes, but everybody who loved my kids.

IANAP, and YMMV, but this wasn't just despair; it was selfishness and vindictiveness.

[Kenngo1969]

Duplicate!

[Kenngo1969]

There is a distinct (and reasonable) possibility that Powell was flat-out of his mind when he took these horrific and inexcusable actions.

I could buy that ... if he hadn't done it the way he did it: "I can't live without my kids. I'm outta here," says he, whereupon he takes a drive, hooks a hose up to the exhaust of his van, leaves it idling for awhile, and that's the end of it. I'd get it if that were the case, but it seems not so. There seems to be a good deal more spite, malice, and premeditation to his actions than there would be if that were the case (including toward the kids). He composes e-mails to not just one, but several, people (who knows how long it took him to do that); he buys gasoline, then spreads it throughout the house; then goes out in a blaze of "glory."

This wasn't just, "I'm outta here."

It wasn't just, "We're outta here."

It wasn't just, "We're outta here, and screw the Coxes."

It was, "We're outta here, and screw not only the Coxes, but everybody who loved my kids."

IANAP, and YMMV, but this wasn't just despair; it was selfishness and vindictiveness.