Josh Powell Suicide Murder Of Sons

[Avatar4321]

Can he repent? I mean he's committed murder. not the unpardonable sin, but it is an unforgiveable one. Especially one who had the light and knowledge of the Gospel in their lives. It's obvious he could do so before having the light and knowledge of the Gospel. But he knew better. I don't know his final state. But if what we know of him is accurate, he would not be resurrected until after the millinium and would have to suffer for his sins.

Of course, I don't know to what extent the Atonement has effect in the after life and who qualifies. Im sure God will be both just and merciful to the furthest extent possible. I hope the family has a chance to recover from this horrible act.

[frankenstein]

Can he repent? I mean he's committed murder. not the unpardonable sin, but it is an unforgiveable one. Especially one who had the light and knowledge of the Gospel in their lives. It's obvious he could do so before having the light and knowledge of the Gospel. But he knew better. I don't know his final state. But if what we know of him is accurate, he would not be resurrected until after the millinium and would have to suffer for his sins.

Of course, I don't know to what extent the Atonement has effect in the after life and who qualifies. Im sure God will be both just and merciful to the furthest extent possible. I hope the family has a chance to recover from this horrible act.

Giving that the LDS Church official stance on suicide, in part, is essentially "we don't know.what is going on in a persons head" it does not seem right to place an eternal judgment on him.

As for cyberbulling, what the heck does the lack of everyone who is bullied not committing suicide have to do with anything? Everyone is different, everyone has different breaking points.

I do not give much credence to the statement fromthe grandparents attorney about the.mom being in trunk. I think that is a planted memory created by the grandparents.

The whole thing is tragic.

[KevinG]

Can he repent - yes. Will Christs atonement cover his sin - yes.

Is it likely that a man who avoids divorce by murdering his wife then compounds his sins by murdering his children will have a very difficult time in the next life coming to terms with the humility and selflessness required to repent fully of these kinds of acts.

[Avatar4321]

Giving that the LDS Church official stance on suicide, in part, is essentially "we don't know.what is going on in a persons head" it does not seem right to place an eternal judgment on him.

As for cyberbulling, what the heck does the lack of everyone who is bullied not committing suicide have to do with anything? Everyone is different, everyone has different breaking points.

I do not give much credence to the statement fromthe grandparents attorney about the.mom being in trunk. I think that is a planted memory created by the grandparents.

The whole thing is tragic.

I didnt mention the suicide. I mentioned him murdering his children. And probably his wife.

[frankenstein]

I didnt mention the suicide. I mentioned him murdering his children. And probably his wife.

I should have been clear, the death of his children is directly related to his suicide, because the one follows the other the mental state for the suicide is the same for the death of the children. Hopefully that clarifies my position.

[Daniel Peterson]

I haven't read through this thread, so perhaps it's already been mentioned that, in some places on the Anti-Mormon Web, Josh Powell's actions are being blamed -- surprise! surprise! -- on Mormonism.

It seems that Mormonism taught him that women and children are property, to be dealt with or disposed of at the whims of males.

And, alternatively or supplementarily, Mormonism's sick view of sex, which pushes people into marriage who shouldn't be married (and denies the virtually sacramental wonders of masturbation [i admit that I don't quite understand the reasoning that connects this apparent Mormon flaw to Josh Powell's suicide and homicides, but there you have it]), led directly to his murderous criminal actions.

As we all know, his passionate devotion to Mormonism was the central and overriding feature of Josh Powell's life, right up to its end. (I haven't yet read what he wrote in his farewell note to his pastor, but surely it must have been his testimony of Mormonism, right?)

[Duncan]

if he doesn't want to repent or think what he did was wrong then I don't see him being granted forgiveness but I am not God and so it is in his hands

[Daniel2]

I haven't read through this thread, so perhaps it's already been mentioned that, in some places on the Anti-Mormon Web, Josh Powell's actions are being blamed -- surprise! surprise! -- on Mormonism.

Daniel,

Can you provide some links to the "Anti-Mormon Web" where Josh's actions are being blamed on Mormonism?

Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

If you're going to do a murder suicide start with the suicide. Then worry about the murder.

[Daniel Peterson]

Can you provide some links to the "Anti-Mormon Web" where Josh's actions are being blamed on Mormonism?

I could, but I'm not going to spend the time. There are two threads on the so-called "Recovery" board treating this sort of thing, for example.

[Calm]

Is the alleged fact**** that he spent hours daily on the phone for years with his anti-LDS father (who turns out to be involved in child porn and voyeurism and obsessed with his son's wife) ever discussed as a contributing factor?

*****Read this somewhere, was not reported by news that I know but the individual was one of several who seemed personally acquainted with the family. Don't know the accuracy of it which is why I use "alleged".

[Ares]

Daniel,

Can you provide some links to the "Anti-Mormon Web" where Josh's actions are being blamed on Mormonism?

Daniel2

Please research it yourself or have someone PM them. We don't really want those sites linked here.

[Daniel2]

Please research it yourself or have someone PM them. We don't really want those sites linked here.

No worries, Ares. It wasn't my intent to require links to external, anti-Mormon sites, per se, but more examples of what Mr. Peterson is claiming. I'd be interested in having him cut and paste or PM me with examples of such. Apparently, he's "not going to spend the time" doing so. I presume my CFR will go unanswered.

Daniel2

[LeSellers]

No worries, Ares. It wasn't my intent to require links to external, anti-Mormon sites, per se, but more examples of what Mr. Peterson is claiming. I'd be interested in having him cut and paste or PM examples of such. Apparently, he's "not going to spend the time" doing so. I presume my CFR will go unanswered.

Here's one:

Although Josh Powell parted ways with the Mormon church it is clear he fit the profile of someone who believed that his wife and his children were property. I watched a few girlfriends leave the church behind, with their husbands and when the marriage went bad, despite having supposedly left the Mormon mindset, the men freaked out, perpetuated violence and acted terrifyingly erratically.

One of their husbands, who had been having affairs nearly their whole marriage was so incapable of seperating his own identity from that of her and the kids that he became obsessed with keeping the marriage intact. He threatened to kill her and the kids on numerous occasions. This is in Utah. When the mormon police showed up, she was ignored and nothing was done. She went to judges and advocates all in an effort to keep him away from her and the children. Overwhelmingly, nobody could comprehend the danger she was in.

Some of us who have seen these situations play out in Mormon communities know the contribution the culture played.

Josh saw his wife and children as property and he owned them and he felt he had every right to murder them. His delusions were only reinforced by a culture that does not see women and children as seperate human beings from their priesthoodholder.

Josh should have never had those kids from the moment he became a suspect. There was more than enough evidence to keep him away.

I am heartsick for the last terrible moments of these little boys as they were burned alive and for the families of Susan and Josh. Some people are monsters and it is so hard for normal people to believe that they are until it is too late. Who knows, maybe Susan would still be alive if her Bishop had taken her situation seriously. Local church hierarchy are the first line of defense in abusive situations.

It's high time the LDS church put women in positions of power, including as spiritual counsel and created avenues for them to escape abusive situtations. Male Bishops should not be interviewing girls and women period! Other churches wrap their arms around women in abusive situations and keep them safe on the way out and afterward. It is a shame Susan didn't have these resources available to her.

It took less than 30 seconds to find.

Lehi

[Calm]

Anyone got data on LDS domestic violence compared to nonLDS?

I watched a few girlfriends leave the church behind, with their husbands and when the marriage went bad, despite having supposedly left the Mormon mindset, the men freaked out, perpetuated violence and acted terrifyingly erratically.

I find that the other commonality---that they had left the Church---is completely ignored as potentially contributing to the problem.

[KevinG]

Anyone got data on LDS domestic violence compared to nonLDS?

I find that the other commonality---that they had left the Church---is completely ignored as potentially contributing to the problem.

Even better data showing the difference in the rates for active LDS vs. lapsed LDS.

Any correlation between abuse and LDS membership may show the causation of people abandoning the faith is due to their inability to obey its tennants not the other way around.

The Doctrines on how to be a father and husband are clearly spelled out in D&C 121 and the punishments for unrightous dominion are heavy and serious. Funny how critics like to use those not obedient to our doctrines as examples of who we "really are".

Josh Powell is a great example of how not to be a Mormon husband and father. The perverse notion that his evil was encouraged and nurtured by Mormonism says more about the people putting forward that crap than it does the LDS Church.

[Daniel2]

Here's one:

It took less than 30 seconds to find.

Lehi

Thanks for posting that, Lehi, and for bolding the parts mentioned. I've never visited the "Recovery" site that Daniel mentioned (assuminig he's talking about "Recovery from Mormonism"?), so I'm unfamiliar with it--hence my request.

Daniel2

[selek1]

Duplicate. Internet connection is screwy today.

[selek1]

Weird Duplicate

[Daniel2]

The Doctrines on how to be a father and husband are clearly spelled out in D&C 121 and the punishments for unrightous dominion are heavy and serious. Funny how critics like to use those not obedient to our doctrines as examples of who we "really are".

Josh Powell is a great example of how not to be a Mormon husband and father. The perverse notion that his evil was encouraged and nurtured by Mormonism says more about the people putting forward that crap than it does the LDS Church.

I heartily agree with this portion of your post, Daddy. It's absurd for non- or ex-Mormons to claim that Mormonism in ANY way was related to or influential on Josh's Powell's horrible murder of his two sons or (probably) wife. No active Latter-day Saints that I have ever known would interpret the teachings of the church in such a fashion.

Even better data showing the difference in the [abuse] rates for active LDS vs. lapsed LDS.

Any correlation between abuse and LDS membership may show the causation of people abandoning the faith is due to their inability to obey its tennants not the other way around.

This portion makes me less comfortable. I'm not sure I follow... I hope you don't intend to suggest that those of us who leave the LDS Faith are more likely to abuse our children that those that don't.

Daniel2

[selek1]

Giving that the LDS Church official stance on suicide, in part, is essentially "we don't know.what is going on in a persons head" it does not seem right to place an eternal judgment on him.

As for cyberbulling, what the heck does the lack of everyone who is bullied not committing suicide have to do with anything? Everyone is different, everyone has different breaking points.

I do not give much credence to the statement fromthe grandparents attorney about the.mom being in trunk. I think that is a planted memory created by the grandparents.

The whole thing is tragic.

Somebody call Guiness.

I completely agree with everything Frankenstein just said.

I'm the last one on the planet to buy into the tendency to pathologize evil, but I find the media-driven rush to judgement against Powell to be more than a little irritating.

Despite the armchair quarterbacking, the incessant drumbeat from the media, and the craven headline chasing of the West Valley Police, Powell has yet to be proven guilty of anything other than refusing to roll over and admit guilt in his wife's disappearance.

And with the exception of Martha Stewart and one or two of our politicians, that's not a crime in this country.

I still remember how the media and the police tried to railroad John Ramsey and Ed Smart over the disappearances of their respective daughers.

Both men were exonerated- but that didn't stop the gossips and "experts" from psychoanalyzing them (without ever actually talking to them) and drawing all sorts of "conclusions" about how irresponsible/heinous/deeply evil these men were.

The presumption of innocence and the complete lack of evidence didn't matter- the titilatting aspects of the cases were paramount.

I've yet to had anyone show me how the Powell case was any different from the Smart and Ramsey cases.

Assume- just for a moment- that Powell was actually innocent in his wife's disappearance.

How would you react to the incessant and insistent harrassment from your wife's family, from the media, from your coworkers and strangers on the street?

How would you react to the constant and unending cloud of suspicion, gossip, and innuendo hanging over your head?

How would you react to having your children taken from you and used as pawns in a vicious game designed to punish you for a crime you didn't commit?

There is a distinct (and reasonable) possibility that Powell was flat-out of his mind when he took these horrific and inexcusable actions.

If (and I say "if" ) that's the case, then everyone piling on his still-warm corpse is guilty of a lack of charity and compassion.

For myself, I will content myself with praying for the lost and wounded on both sides of this tragedy, and trust God to dry their tears and heal their wounds.

[KevinG]

This portion makes me less comfortable. I'm not sure I follow... I hope you don't intend to suggest that those of us who leave the LDS Faith are more likely to abuse our children that those that don't.

Daniel2

Just the opposite. I am postulating that those of any religion or social group who are likely to keep faithful to their promises, covenants, faith, cultural traditions, etc... to the denial of their selfish wants are much more likely to succeed at being slefless spouses and parents.

I suppose the two are different sides of the same coin. I would not assume some who leaves the LDS church is a sinner but I would assume someone doing their utmost to keep D&C section 121 would be a better person for it.

[KevinG]

Frank, Selek - good points. I started this thread hoping the LDS wouldn't get demonized in the discussion. I owe the Powell family the presumption of innocence until proven guilty on the charge of his wifes disapperance.

I stand repentant.

[Calm]

Even better data showing the difference in the rates for active LDS vs. lapsed LDS.

That would be the most desirable, but I thought that as totally improbable to find.

[Calm]

Powell has yet to be proven guilty of anything other than refusing to roll over and admit guilt in his wife's disappearance.

Are you suggesting we hold off on assuming he was the one who murdered his boys and then committed suicide? I thought that was obvious from the emails he sent out and the fact he took toys and books to the Goodwill the week before, bought accelerant, etc.