Video Gone Viral: Jesus Vs. Religion

[mercyngrace]

Look, I know its a personal pride thing for you, but no I disagree and I have shown it, sorry your point is not correct.

Jeff, you are out of line. It has nothing to do with my pride. It has to do with the Savior's character.

I'm not the one who is becoming defensive and I believe my posts bear that out. I won't be shouted down or insulted into silence as happens on this board so often. I've asked you for a CFR and instead, you've become insulting and leveled personal attacks.

I stand by my statements, citations, and honest intent.

MnG

PS The Savior engaged Pharisees and Saducees repeatedly. He did not avoid them because they were unrepentant. The only times He avoided them was when they actively and prematurely sought His life. Otherwise,He responded to their questions, ate in their homes, spoke in their synagoues, and even healed their children.

Edited January 28, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Jeff K.]

Jeff, you are out of line. It has nothing to do with my pride. It has to do with the Savior's character.

No more out of line than saying I don't like to be wrong.

I'm not the one who is becoming defensive and I believe my posts bear that out. I won't be shouted down or insulted into silence as happens on this board so often. I've asked you for a CFR and instead, you've become insulting and leveled personal attacks.

I stand by my statements, citations, and honest intent.

MnG

Ah but yes you are.

And yet you haven't answered my question.

[mercyngrace]

No more out of line than saying I don't like to be wrong.

Reread my statement. I said that NO ONE likes to be wrong. That applies to humans across the board, Jeff. My exact words were : I know you don't like to be wrong. None of us do. Notice that I included myself among that group, Jeff.

Ah but yes you are.

And yet you haven't answered my question.

Jeff, I don't need to be defensive, I've provided references.

PS You are too quick to contend. I responded above.

Edited January 28, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 27 January 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

No more out of line than saying I don't like to be wrong.

Reread my statement. I said that NO ONE likes to be wrong. That applies to humans across the board, Jeff. My exact words were : I know you don't like to be wrong. None of us do. Notice that I included myself among that group, Jeff.

Sigh, when you state the obvious, one presumes you think someone doesn't know the obvious, it is a bit insulting. I know you don't like to be wrong it probably hurts your pride. There now feel better? Do I say "across the board?" In debate its a typical passive aggressive used in order to belittle the other person. The phrase really should be avoided.

Quote

Ah but yes you are.

And yet you haven't answered my question.

Jeff, I don't need to be defensive, I've provided references.

PS You are too quick to contend. I responded above.

You provided interpretations which I found opinionated but not set in stone, you really should read my posts more carefully.

[mercyngrace]

Sigh, when you state the obvious, one presumes you think someone doesn't know the obvious, it is a bit insulting. I know you don't like to be wrong it probably hurts your pride. There now feel better? Do I say "across the board?" In debate its a typical passive aggressive used in order to belittle the other person. The phrase really should be avoided.

You think I belittled you?

Jeff,

My intent was not to belittle and I will take your counsel, however it was intended, under advisement. Now that you have corrected my phraseology, would you please respond to the CFR?

MnG

[Jeff K.]

PS The Savior engaged Pharisees and Saducees repeatedly. He did not avoid them because they were unrepentant. The only times He avoided them was when they actively and prematurely sought His life. Otherwise,He responded to their questions, ate in their homes, spoke in their synagoues, and even healed their children.

Allow me to say that Christ did not waste his time with those people who did not seek repentance, he avoided wasting his time with them, they approached Him constantly. He did not go with them. I again refer to the following....

Christ will sit with a sinner to call the sinner to repentance. Many sinners today would accuse Christ of judging them harshly and would stone him for not bowing to their rights. They do it all the time now to anyone who calls them to repentance. They would do it moreso to Christ because His voice is one that they cannot ignore. The distortion is from those who would seek to justify sin, and use the phrase "don't judge me" in order to undermine any charge of sin or wrongness. Christ would have told them they were wrong, in today's world, their distortion or relativism if you will, would not allow them to accept Christs word, they would indeed seek someway to destroy Him.

Would Christ sit with such people? They are today's Pharisees and Sadducees... et al who see nothing wrong with what they are doing, why? Their pride blinds any humility to learn. To quote....Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[Jeff K.]

You think I belittled you?

Jeff,

My intent was not to belittle and I will take your counsel, however it was intended, under advisement. Now that you have corrected my phraseology, would you please respond to the CFR?

MnG

The phrase lends itself to such, you should be more careful. It is a belittling phrase. Just like the one I used.

[mercyngrace]

Allow me to say that Christ did not waste his time with those people who did not seek repentance, he avoided wasting his time with them, they approached Him constantly. He did not go with them. I again refer to the following....

Christ will sit with a sinner to call the sinner to repentance. Many sinners today would accuse Christ of judging them harshly and would stone him for not bowing to their rights. They do it all the time now to anyone who calls them to repentance. They would do it moreso to Christ because His voice is one that they cannot ignore. The distortion is from those who would seek to justify sin, and use the phrase "don't judge me" in order to undermine any charge of sin or wrongness. Christ would have told them they were wrong, in today's world, their distortion or relativism if you will, would not allow them to accept Christs word, they would indeed seek someway to destroy Him.

Would Christ sit with such people? They are today's Pharisees and Sadducees... et al who see nothing wrong with what they are doing, why? Their pride blinds any humility to learn. To quote....Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

There are no references here, Jeff. These are all opinion statements. I referred to specific accounts in the scripture and provided books and chapters from which my characterizations were drawn (Hosea 1-2, Romans 5, for example). Neither of your quotes shows Christ avoiding anyone.

Please provide a reference per board guidelines.

Edited January 28, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Jeff K.]

Your interpretation of scripture is noted but not set in stone. In fact I see nothing in those scriptures that necessarily support your opinion other than your interpretation thereof... be more specific and we shall see

[mercyngrace]

Jeff,

Since we are on this merry go round, I might as well repeat myself.

The onus is one you to prove your assertion. I've countered it with specific citations from scripture. You have yet to provide any. CFR.

MnG

[Jeff K.]

Actually no, you haven't, you have tossed out a couple of chapters that do not support your position, and you expect with no explanation of those chapters to have me accept your interpretation, I suggest that perhaps you know how flimsy your position is and you cannot provide a concise explanation.

I think I am spot on. Christ did not cast his pearls before swine, a scriptural reference I provided you with (which you seem to have missed) showing that he did not waste his time. If you insist in ignoring Matthew 7:6 and Mark 7 for that matter. After condemning their sins for they would not repent, he left... see verse 24, "He would have no man know it".....

[mercyngrace]

Actually no, you haven't, you have tossed out a couple of chapters that do not support your position, and you expect with no explanation of those chapters to have me accept your interpretation, I suggest that perhaps you know how flimsy your position is and you cannot provide a concise explanation.

I think I am spot on. Christ did not cast his pearls before swine, a scriptural reference I provided you with (which you seem to have missed) showing that he did not waste his time. If you insist in ignoring Matthew 7:6 and Mark 7 for that matter. After condemning their sins for they would not repent, he left... see verse 24, "He would have no man know it".....

So you are equating withholding esoteric teachings with "avoiding" the unrepentant. That's quite a liberal reading, Jeff.

Hosea 2:13-14 Christ goes out after wayward Israel

Romans 5:10 He sacrifice Himself for us while we were yet enemies (unrepentant)

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. ~ Mark 2:17

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 27 January 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Actually no, you haven't, you have tossed out a couple of chapters that do not support your position, and you expect with no explanation of those chapters to have me accept your interpretation, I suggest that perhaps you know how flimsy your position is and you cannot provide a concise explanation.

I think I am spot on. Christ did not cast his pearls before swine, a scriptural reference I provided you with (which you seem to have missed) showing that he did not waste his time. If you insist in ignoring Matthew 7:6 and Mark 7 for that matter. After condemning their sins for they would not repent, he left... see verse 24, "He would have no man know it".....

So you are equating withholding esoteric teachings with "avoiding" the unrepentant. That's quite a liberal reading, Jeff.

Hosea 2:13-14 Christ goes out after wayward Israel

Romans 5:10 He sacrifice Himself for us while we were yet enemies (unrepentant)

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. ~ Mark 2:17

No, it isn't a liberal reading, he saw no use in calling them to repentance when they and he knew they would not accept.

You on the other hand seem to misinterpret introduction of the the chance for repentance to those who do not know to repent with the idea that somehow Christ would continue to toss out the pearls to those who continuously reject Him. I would say yours if the somewhat vague reading. Do you believe that those who knowingly reject Christ would still retain the self same blessings?

You juxtapose time/and repentance in an eroneous manner. The sick of course do need a physician, but the sick who reject the physician have made their choices. If someone does not want to repent, then the repentance cannot be forced upon them.

[oats]

This guy plays on the current popular (mis)understanding of the word religion. It is a word that has been hijacked. Its meaning in the collective conscience negates its most important qualities and equates it (often deserved) with power structures. It's like how people understand the word faith differently. Read the Lectures on Faith and then compare it to how the word is understood by most people you know. It's similar to how the same word, religion, may hold vastly different meanings to different people.

Looking from outside into the US it is plainly obvious that popular media, via political candidates especially, pedals a bastardized sense of religion more suited to grabbing power than to helping people know Christ.

My experience, for the most part, is that a religion, or church, helps people work together to know Christ. It's a necessary part of maintaining the capacity to teach one another principles. It's a part of communicating and uniting our personal experiences. It's foundational to helping children learn the principles we've grown to understand and love.

It comes back to our habit of delineating and setting boundaries in order to make things easier on our minds. We tend to delineate our personal experiences with God from churches and religions. I like to do that. I take the relationship I have built between myself and God and reinforce it at church, through a religion and religious worship. But at the same time I can't deny the impact of religion in the construction of my relationship with God. Looking back I can say, 'Oh, this relationship with God, and my knowledge of Christ, could have been obtained without the aid of religion.' This could be true. More likely is that my relationship has been enhanced and facilitated by religion. We tend to misdirect credit and assume to much in retrospect.

I very much dislike how this guy associates the word hate with religion. Religion is a mere word but we haven't moved the less popular understanding it holds to many people onto another word. So we're left holding the word religion. It looks the same to everyone but some people hold within it a meaning of power and authority structure while others hold within it a different more appreciative meaning. But we're all left defending and attacking the same word. The video is another part of the wrestle to impose a specific understanding onto a word. I wonder how often Christ joined in the fight to impose specific meanings and definitions onto words?

Edited January 28, 2012 by oats

[Stargazer]

You assume that he uses incorrect terminology. You, however, do not know his heart or mind's intent. Perhaps his word choice isn't poor but selective to make a point.

Once again, its fascinating how we stress the importance of context, audience, etc. when we want appropriate and accurate interpretation on others but do not hold ourselves to the same standard.

The critic who criticizes without asking questions shows the range of their comfort in ignorance.

Oh, I know what he means, don't fret. I rather agree with him to a point, and he says it so poetically (rather, rap-poetically). But his use of the term "religion" suggests something that he is actually not saying. In my humble opinion.

[mercyngrace]

Jeff,

May you encounter Christ's love such that you see the lengths to which He goes to reclaim even those who aren't ready to repent. May you hear His voice, like a lover intreating His beloved with alluring whispers. May you see His hand, guiding the lives of those who are unaware and even rebellious. May you be blessed to know with a sure knowledge that He "will have all men to be saved".

The God you've described in this thread is so unlike the Savior I know who's hand is outstretched unceasingly and who would gather us like a mother hen - the one who numbers not only the stars but the hairs of our heads. This God, my God, does not avoid the lost. He sweeps the house until they are found. He searches the wilderness until He can carry them home on His shoulders. He watches the horizon with anticipation for the wandering prodigals and does not turn His back, avoid them dispassionately in their lostness, or avert His tender gaze.

Perhaps our experiences are different. More's the pity.

MnG

[california boy]

Christ will sit with a sinner to call the sinner to repentance. Many sinners today would accuse Christ of judging them harshly and would stone him for not bowing to their rights. They do it all the time now to anyone who calls them to repentance. They would do it moreso to Christ because His voice is one that they cannot ignore. The distortion is from those who would seek to justify sin, and use the phrase "don't judge me" in order to undermine any charge of sin or wrongness. Christ would have told them they were wrong, in today's world, their distortion or relativism if you will, would not allow them to accept Christs word, they would indeed seek someway to destroy Him.

Would Christ sit with such people? They are today's Pharisees and Sadducees... et al who see nothing wrong with what they are doing, why? Their pride blinds any humility to learn. To quote....Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

This is about the third time you have stated that people that are sinning would be the ones that would stone Christ today. Do you have any proof of this opinion? Yeah I am asking for another CFR from you.

Because when is the last time someone calling someone to repentance was stoned??? On the other hand, I can give you literally hundreds of instances of people who claim they were doing Gods will by imposing violence on those that they preceeved were doing something sinful. Religious fanatics are the ones that seem to be prone to violence because of their "religious" beliefs. From abortion clinic bombings to gay bashing, it is the religious fanatics that feel it is their mission to harm those that don't follow their particular religious point of view.

Who would stone Christ today? The same people that crucified Him the first time. Religious fanatics that think their view of religion is right and Christs view of religion is wrong. Nothing has changed. It is the same in the world we live in today as it was during the world that Christ lived in.

[BlueDreams]

You on the other hand seem to misinterpret introduction of the the chance for repentance to those who do not know to repent with the idea that somehow Christ would continue to toss out the pearls to those who continuously reject Him.

I hope you don't mind me quickly interjecting. I can understand your point....There's a place and a time where the Spirit cannot be with man. Yet i would also suggest that Mercy has a point. That point is extremely hard to reach. The Book of Mormon, in my mind, is the perfect example of just how long Christ will work to bring us back to Him. Laman and Lemuel, for example, didn't go down in one major decision. THe rebelled, then repented, the rebelled again. Each time, the Lord worked to get these two back to where they needed to be, even though their case seemed pretty hopeless.

Mormon and Moroni had it worse. Here were these people that had certainly reached an extreme level of depravity. And Mormon and Moroni were called to stay with them to the very end. Mormon was called to die with them. And though neither of them are Christ himself, I'd suggest that Jesus would not ask his servants/mouthpieces to do something He himself isn't willing to do.

Now I'm not sure what is meant, for you, by pearls. There is a limit to how much truth an unrepentant, proud, and rebellious heart can receive in their current stay. But, personally, I don't think that's what Mercy is suggesting isn't necessarily about that and more about Christ's actions. Christ actively invites all people (ALL people). To come unto Him. Again. And Again. And again. We reject Him. But it isn't Christ's action to pull away from us. Rather we're running away from Him. He never ceases to search. Even to the very end, as Mormon and Moroni would learn.

Personally, even though He may not have an active role in some people's lives, He is still in a place where he's readily accessible. He's near them.

Do you believe that those who knowingly reject Christ would still retain the self same blessings?

As for this question....one of my favorite chapters is Mosiah 14/isaiah 53:

3 He is ^adespised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has ^aborne our ^bgriefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was ^awounded for our ^btransgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are ^chealed.

6 All we, like ^asheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.

Emphasis mine. In many of the scriptures, we're described in the same boat as the rebellios. Sometimes people have the great idea of deciding who would be sitting there crucifying the Savior nowadays. The answer is at one point we all would. This is describing a people centuries before Christ, yet all of us have rejected Him. All of us have rebelled. All of us have held favorite sins, and turned aside the counsel of God. None of us are without our own guilts. None of us. Since we've all rebelled and I know I have felt the gift of His love when I was far from perfect and still with plenty of pride and rebellion to go around....yes. Yes, I think He would. He would until we have killed even the faintest glimmer of hope for our souls. And the scriptures teach quite clearly, that that is quite a ways off. Even those who directly had some guilt in His murder, He would send Peter and the apostles to teach and bring to repentance (Romans 2). Even when I've rebelled and fought and gnashed my own set of teeth, He's worked gently and consistently to bring me around and change my heart. One piece at a time. That's how He works. He's persistent. He never gives up. Not on one soul. That's his Greatest Gift: His Atonement, custom made for the fallen.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 28, 2012 by BlueDreams

[california boy]

Jeff, May you encounter Christ's love such that you see the lengths to which He goes to reclaim even those who aren't ready to repent. May you hear His voice, like a lover intreating His beloved with alluring whispers. May you see His hand, guiding the lives of those who are unaware and even rebellious. May you be blessed to know with a sure knowledge that He "will have all men to be saved". The God you've described in this thread is so unlike the Savior I know who's hand is outstretched unceasingly and who would gather us like a mother hen - the one who numbers not only the stars but the hairs of our heads. This God, my God, does not avoid the lost. He sweeps the house until they are found. He searches the wilderness until He can carry them home on His shoulders. He watches the horizon with anticipation for the wandering prodigals and does not turn His back, avoid them dispassionately in their lostness, or avert His tender gaze. Perhaps our experiences are different. More's the pity. MnG

A very nice testimony of the love God has for ALL His children. Unfortunately Jeff feels the need to distort the life and teachings of Christ to justify his own behavior. Of course he can not provide any scriptures where Christ avoided sinners. That is so unlike Christ and so unlike all of the teachings and reports that we have of Christ. Christ taught a gospel of Him leaving the 99 to go after the one. Was Christ saying in that parable that 99 were perfect and so he was going after the one seeking repentance but not perfect yet?? Or is it a parable of Christ going after the one that was not looking for Him. Come on. Jeff you are not going to find a scriptural support for your distorted belief of who Christ was. But then, you probably already know that.

[Calm]

If someone presumes their sin is a right, or in other words, is not a sin, then aren't they acting in ignorance? Aren't they acting much like Saul, who believed he was in the right persecuting Christians, right up until he came to know the Lord for himself?

Not necessarily, they could be acting in defiance of authority (in the case of sin God's) defying God's right to specify what is and isn't a sin or claiming that God has no right to judge them based on their choices for whatever reason they come up with (his world is unfair and unjust and unequal so any law he might impose will be inherently unjust and therefore immoral and thus people have a right to defy it.

[TAO]

Very nice post Blue Dreams!

[mercyngrace]

Not necessarily, they could be acting in defiance of authority (in the case of sin God's) defying God's right to specify what is and isn't a sin or claiming that God has no right to judge them based on their choices for whatever reason they come up with (his world is unfair and unjust and unequal so any law he might impose will be inherently unjust and therefore immoral and thus people have a right to defy it.

I have to wonder if those who defy God in the way you are describing are defying God as they understand Him rather than as He really is.

In other words, perhaps they are defying a God they've been taught to fear, or a God who they believe is unjust, or a God who's actions seem arbitrary and capricious to them. Oftentimes I hear people describe Jesus Christ and I am left to wonder why they have given my Lord's name to this false god they worship. I wouldn't obey those false gods either.

And as can be seen clearly in this thread, two devout worshipers from the same faith are disciples of vastly different Lords. Can you imagine how confusing it must be to hear sectarians of all religions shouting "Lo here!" and "Lo there!" and then presenting a vengeful God or a jealous God or a repent now or burn God or a Republican God or a social justice God or a Westboro Baptist God or a God will bless you with money God or any other perverse or lopsided variation of the one true God?

All I'm getting at is that we don't know what a defiant individual has been taught about God or mistakenly believes about Him. What we do know is that willful disobedience of the perdition sort is rare so God must have a great deal of compassion for those who rebel against His image without truly knowing Him.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

May you encounter Christ's love such that you see the lengths to which He goes to reclaim even those who aren't ready to repent. May you hear His voice, like a lover intreating His beloved with alluring whispers. May you see His hand, guiding the lives of those who are unaware and even rebellious. May you be blessed to know with a sure knowledge that He "will have all men to be saved".

The God you've described in this thread is so unlike the Savior I know who's hand is outstretched unceasingly and who would gather us like a mother hen - the one who numbers not only the stars but the hairs of our heads. This God, my God, does not avoid the lost. He sweeps the house until they are found. He searches the wilderness until He can carry them home on His shoulders. He watches the horizon with anticipation for the wandering prodigals and does not turn His back, avoid them dispassionately in their lostness, or avert His tender gaze.

Perhaps our experiences are different. More's the pity.

MnG

I have encoutered Christs love many times. The Christ you describe is the Christ I know, but it appears you focus on the only dimension of Christ that appeals to you. People often do that, both with scripture , as well as God. I do know that Christ was never a passive aggressive lover of the people. He is the Christ of Jehovah, the Christ in the Temple with the cat of nine tails, and also the Christ who healed and the Christ who atoned for us all.... He is not one dimensional, He is dynamic, not passive. Christ reaches out, but does not plead or beg for you to accept what he offers. He simply offers it with his love and happiness that you may know of it. Also, he shows little patience for the Pharisees and Sadducees whose pride blinds them, or for that matter to others of other walks of life whose pride is one that offers no sanction for repentance. As long as we accept the gift of repentance, he will be there for us, He will bring us back to Heavenly Father. But when we condemn Him for calling our deeds sin, we have no promise.

In this day many would condemn Christ for calling what they are doing a sin.

Perhaps when you know Christ more, that aspect you find so alien will not be so?

[Jeff K.]

mercyngrace, on 27 January 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Jeff, May you encounter Christ's love such that you see the lengths to which He goes to reclaim even those who aren't ready to repent. May you hear His voice, like a lover intreating His beloved with alluring whispers. May you see His hand, guiding the lives of those who are unaware and even rebellious. May you be blessed to know with a sure knowledge that He "will have all men to be saved". The God you've described in this thread is so unlike the Savior I know who's hand is outstretched unceasingly and who would gather us like a mother hen - the one who numbers not only the stars but the hairs of our heads. This God, my God, does not avoid the lost. He sweeps the house until they are found. He searches the wilderness until He can carry them home on His shoulders. He watches the horizon with anticipation for the wandering prodigals and does not turn His back, avoid them dispassionately in their lostness, or avert His tender gaze. Perhaps our experiences are different. More's the pity. MnG

A very nice testimony of the love God has for ALL His children. Unfortunately Jeff feels the need to distort the life and teachings of Christ to justify his own behavior. Of course he can not provide any scriptures where Christ avoided sinners. That is so unlike Christ and so unlike all of the teachings and reports that we have of Christ. Christ taught a gospel of Him leaving the 99 to go after the one. Was Christ saying in that parable that 99 were perfect and so he was going after the one seeking repentance but not perfect yet?? Or is it a parable of Christ going after the one that was not looking for Him. Come on. Jeff you are not going to find a scriptural support for your distorted belief of who Christ was. But then, you probably already know that.

Sigh, I don't distort, but you seem to deride quite easily. We know that you would justify any action against Mormons for your political agenda, we also know you disdain and hate the church for its existence, you have often issued diatribes calling the church, its doctrines, and its prophets evil, terrible people. Praise from you should give one pause.

[Jeff K.]

Not necessarily, they could be acting in defiance of authority (in the case of sin God's) defying God's right to specify what is and isn't a sin or claiming that God has no right to judge them based on their choices for whatever reason they come up with (his world is unfair and unjust and unequal so any law he might impose will be inherently unjust and therefore immoral and thus people have a right to defy it.

My point exactly.